Recentering and?

[wagolfer7]

46 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Yeah Ok.

Didn't mean to offend anyone. 

 

Just speaking what I believe is true. 

 

There's a lot more to the transition move than recentering and getting your pressure to lead side.  

 

It's not simple. Which is why I think it's very hard to teach, learn and try to explain it. 

 

And also why it's the biggest separator between good amateurs and the elite.  

[Zitlow]

Don't make recentering a thing. It isn't something you try to do or have to think about, it happens on your way to the ball if your pivot is correct. 

 

 

 

[getitdaily]

9 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Don't make recentering a thing. It isn't something you try to do or have to think about, it happens on your way to the ball if your pivot is correct. 

 

 

 

Unless it's late...then you can work on it and make things easier for yourself. And for most people.. it's late. 

[ALIF]

5 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Unless it's late...then you can work on it and make things easier for yourself. And for most people.. it's late. 

This^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

[MK7Golf21]

18 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

Didn't mean to offend anyone. 

 

Just speaking what I believe is true. 

 

There's a lot more to the transition move than recentering and getting your pressure to lead side.  

 

It's not simple. Which is why I think it's very hard to teach, learn and try to explain it. 

 

And also why it's the biggest separator between good amateurs and the elite.  

 

What difference are you talking about specifically between good am's and the elite? 

[Chunkitgood]

Still puzzled why golf teachers don’t analyze the swing in terms of the three planes in which the human body moves, at least that I have ever seen.

 

I’ve seen an AMG video on recentering and they define sway as movement to or from the target of a sensor on the lower back, I think at the sacrum, which IMO is just a confusing way to describe what is going on, reducing a three dimension move to actually one dimension.

 

As long ago as the 1960’s Cochran and his team understood the dual nature of rotation around both horizontal and vertical axes, but unfortunately the idea but was not developed but was promptly forgotten by the larger world of golf teaching.

[wagolfer7]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

What difference are you talking about specifically between good am's and the elite? 

Total pressure and CoM path would be very different.  

[Valtiel]

20 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Don't make recentering a thing. It isn't something you try to do or have to think about, it happens on your way to the ball if your pivot is correct. 

 

 

 

The problem is that this idea, right or wrong, does absolutely nothing for the person struggling with the "lates". Getting off the trail side and into the lead side on time is extremely rare among average golfers and the concept of "re-centering" at least gives you an idea of what your supposed to do. Because if you tell a guy that starts his downswing with 100% of his weight on his back foot that he just needs to "pivot correctly" then you may as well be reading him ancient Chinese proverbs for what good that will do. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Valtiel

[MK7Golf21]

6 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

Total pressure and CoM path would be very different.  

 

all sorts of pressure traces in top players but basic fundamentally correct pressure trace isn’t hard to do at all for a better player. 
 

The difference between a better am and pro is their face control and how solid they hit the ball consistently. I was watching Bryson hit balls over the weekend. He knows how to hit the middle of the face with proper angle of attack pretty much on every shot. Top am’s aren’t nearly as consistent. 
 

 

[wagolfer7]

10 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

all sorts of pressure traces in top players but basic fundamentally correct pressure trace isn’t hard to do at all for a better player. 
 

The difference between a better am and pro is their face control and how solid they hit the ball consistently. I was watching Bryson hit balls over the weekend. He knows how to hit the middle of the face with proper angle of attack pretty much on every shot. Top am’s aren’t nearly as consistent. 
 

 

 

CoM path is very linear for PGA player.  Not so much for amateurs. 

 

Total pressure is as high as 165% for PGA player and I think it's only around 100% for scratch level.  Less for higher caps.

 

I disagree that hitting center of the face and face control is the difference. But that's just my opinion. It very well could be. But to me the interaction with the ground seems to be a large gap.

[tthomasgolfer605]

Professional golfers were born with the body and brain to play golf at a high level. Ams weren't. Getting an average golfer to recenter won't just magically change anything and add 80 yards with the driver.

[MK7Golf21]

45 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

CoM path is very linear for PGA player.  Not so much for amateurs. 

 

Total pressure is as high as 165% for PGA player and I think it's only around 100% for scratch level.  Less for higher caps.

 

I disagree that hitting center of the face and face control is the difference. But that's just my opinion. It very well could be. But to me the interaction with the ground seems to be a large gap.

We are sort of getting off the topic of recenter but there are pressure trace teachers out there where this is the main focus. I mean it’s cool and all but it’s not that hard to do, I’ve been on the pressure mats and been able to change my trace very easily to more linear etc. 

 

[slytown]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:50 PM, getitdaily said:

Too early isn't an issue. 

 

Too late is more of an issue. 

 

Both have to be matched up with proper lateral dynamics.

 

If someone moves too early, the release will be late. Pros don't really have this problem often because they have high clubhead speed. They get the club down pretty quick, but a lot of juniors have overactive lower bodies and lateral shift. Yes, it's better than hanging back like most ams, but its still not good.

 

What I'm saying is there is no one instruction on recentering for every golfer. However, yes, most need to recenter or lateral shift earlier.

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

If someone moves too early, the release will be late. Pros don't really have this problem often because they have high clubhead speed. They get the club down pretty quick, but a lot of juniors have overactive lower bodies and lateral shift. Yes, it's better than hanging back like most ams, but its still not good.

 

What I'm saying is there is no one instruction on recentering for every golfer. However, yes, most need to recenter or lateral shift earlier.

Don't agree with your first sentence but basically agree with the rest.

[golfarb1]

From Shaun Webb in the AMG SHORT video

”secret move to add major distance to your swing”

RECENTERING just means that the center of the pelvis moves to the right , it starts to turn , as it finishes its turn IT BACKS IN TO WHERE IT STARTED .

 

Reinforcing this idea is part of their video 

“ how to make recentering happen”, which I include below . Notice that this “  recentering “ does not does not happen until LATE in the backswing . LATE  is consistent with MONTEs response of P3.8-3.9 in Rory s swing.

As I mentioned before , early recentering is a misinterpretation and will serve to only confuse golfers at best and destroy their swing at worst. 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by golfarb1

[Nels55]

Based on what I have picked up from Mike Adams et al videos the recentering timing depends on the type of swing and is related to how the ground is used.  For rear post swingers who use a lot of lateral force the recentering is later around TOS.  For front post golfers who use more vertical GF the recentering is early right around lead arm parallel in the backswing.  For center post golfers who generally use more torque GF the recentering is between the two.

 

I can do all of them more or less LOL.  It is most likely best to find the one that works well and then stick with it.  My understanding is that Mike Adams is of the opinion that everyone has one best movement pattern and should stick with it.  I am not sure if that is true or if it is something that develops early in life but can be changed later on.  

Edited September 27, 2023 by Nels55

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Based on what I have picked up from Mike Adams et al videos the recentering timing depends on the type of swing and is related to how the ground is used.  For rear post swingers who use a lot of lateral force the recentering is later around TOS.  For front post golfers who use more vertical GF the recentering is early right around lead arm parallel in the backswing.  For center post golfers who generally use more torque GF the recentering is between the two.

 

I can do all of them more or less LOL.  It is most likely best to find the one that works well and then stick with it.  My understanding is that Mike Adams is of the opinion that everyone has one best movement patter and should stick with it.  I am not sure if that is true or if it is something that develops early in life but can be changed later on.  

Very good post.

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Based on what I have picked up from Mike Adams et al videos the recentering timing depends on the type of swing and is related to how the ground is used.  For rear post swingers who use a lot of lateral force the recentering is later around TOS.  For front post golfers who use more vertical GF the recentering is early right around lead arm parallel in the backswing.  For center post golfers who generally use more torque GF the recentering is between the two.

 

I can do all of them more or less LOL.  It is most likely best to find the one that works well and then stick with it.  My understanding is that Mike Adams is of the opinion that everyone has one best movement pattern and should stick with it.  I am not sure if that is true or if it is something that develops early in life but can be changed later on.  

 

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Very good post.

Agreed, well said @Nels55. IMO the problem is with the fact that *without* guidance or instruction, the vast majority of us won't move correctly because what is intuitive is usually wrong. Most of us end up stuck on that rear post, either due to overshifting into the trail side or shifting very late, and can't pivot/shift back in time or correctly resulting in low point control issues and high launch/spin. Others stick on the front in an exaggerated S&T kind of pattern and get steep and diggy with the occasional lift up & skull kind of move.

As someone that was never taught these things as a junior, I have to *feel* like i'm super "front post" as an adult just to end up in the middle somewhere. I know i'm doing it right when my ball flight is neutral and I feel more "back to the target/closed" for longer in transition. Overdraws start creeping in when I overdo it and right misses when i'm late. 

[getitdaily]

2 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

Agreed, well said @Nels55. IMO the problem is with the fact that *without* guidance or instruction, the vast majority of us won't move correctly because what is intuitive is usually wrong. Most of us end up stuck on that rear post, either due to overshifting into the trail side or shifting very late, and can't pivot/shift back in time or correctly resulting in low point control issues and high launch/spin. Others stick on the front in an exaggerated S&T kind of pattern and get steep and diggy with the occasional lift up & skull kind of move.

As someone that was never taught these things as a junior, I have to *feel* like i'm super "front post" as an adult just to end up in the middle somewhere. I know i'm doing it right when my ball flight is neutral and I feel more "back to the target/closed" for longer in transition. Overdraws start creeping in when I overdo it and right misses when i'm late. 

Steep and diggy...idk what that is *snicker*.

 

The biggest issue with rear posters is the lateral move in general. It's really hard to get that lateral timing right and it HAS to be combined with solid rotational forces. Without rotation, lateral becomes goat-humping and most ams don't rotate well or properly. 

 

I am like you, have to feel heavily front posted. What I've found is that rotation is a lot easier from the front post position. I'll find out soon just how much I'm front post...

[iacas]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:54 PM, golfarb1 said:

This movement will be larger with wider stances ( driver ) than with narrower stances ( irons).

 

This is not necessarily true.

 

On 9/25/2023 at 10:19 PM, Zitlow said:

Don't make recentering a thing. It isn't something you try to do or have to think about, it happens on your way to the ball if your pivot is correct. 

 

And yet… it's something a lot of golfers have to think about and try to do because they don't have a "correct pivot" and improving this part of their swing can help them get one.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Steep and diggy...idk what that is *snicker*.

 

The biggest issue with rear posters is the lateral move in general. It's really hard to get that lateral timing right and it HAS to be combined with solid rotational forces. Without rotation, lateral becomes goat-humping and most ams don't rotate well or properly. 

 

I am like you, have to feel heavily front posted. What I've found is that rotation is a lot easier from the front post position. I'll find out soon just how much I'm front post...

Players of all posts have won at the highest levels so none is inherently better the the other.  Most likely there is one that is best for you though.  It seems like you are pretty sure that something towards the front post is what you believe to be your best?  I wonder if you have ever done any of the leg dominance test that are on youtube?  I have but like most of the tests that I have seen Mike Adams et al do it seems just a bit subjective.  I think that there is a level of expertise involved with simply getting the testing done correctly.  

 

Anyway here is a nice video of a student who is trail leg post and seems to be swinging quite well along with some explanation of what is going on in that type of swing.

 

[Nels55]

15 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Steep and diggy...idk what that is *snicker*.

 

The biggest issue with rear posters is the lateral move in general. It's really hard to get that lateral timing right and it HAS to be combined with solid rotational forces. Without rotation, lateral becomes goat-humping and most ams don't rotate well or properly. 

 

I am like you, have to feel heavily front posted. What I've found is that rotation is a lot easier from the front post position. I'll find out soon just how much I'm front post...

The rear post swing does require some work to drive through the ball and then put the brakes on so that the lead hip does not go past the lead foot.  If the hip slides past the lead foot there will be hip and lower back pain after time.  The same applies to a front post swing for me.  I have to get my lead hip rotating out of the way and even with or actually a little behind my lead foot.  

 

I have noticed that when I do the trail post shift correctly I pick up some clubhead speed and when I do the front post shift correctly I pick up some clubhead speed.  By correctly I mean that I am actually shifting and not going past my lead foot in the through swing.  With the front post swing I seem to hit the ball crisper so I am working with that movement to see if I can do it.  It is interesting to see the recentering move on video at about lead arm parallel in the backswing when it feels like I am shifting to the lead foot much earlier.   

[Nels55]

16 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

Agreed, well said @Nels55. IMO the problem is with the fact that *without* guidance or instruction, the vast majority of us won't move correctly because what is intuitive is usually wrong. Most of us end up stuck on that rear post, either due to overshifting into the trail side or shifting very late, and can't pivot/shift back in time or correctly resulting in low point control issues and high launch/spin. Others stick on the front in an exaggerated S&T kind of pattern and get steep and diggy with the occasional lift up & skull kind of move.

As someone that was never taught these things as a junior, I have to *feel* like i'm super "front post" as an adult just to end up in the middle somewhere. I know i'm doing it right when my ball flight is neutral and I feel more "back to the target/closed" for longer in transition. Overdraws start creeping in when I overdo it and right misses when i'm late. 

I got 'stuck on the rear post' due to extensive work trying to apply Jimmy Ballard's instruction in the past.  That's my theory anyway.  There is nothing wrong with being a rear post player if the swing is executed properly.  The theory of the post system seems to be that everyone has a preferred post and should stick with it for their lifetime.  

[metaldog]

So I’ve been trying to introduce this concept for awhile and would appreciate some help for the timing for this, I’m generally part of the too late group, I’m trying to really look at how pros time it and when I do swing it well, it almost feels like my mass and weight has finished shifting left around when the backswing is done or slightly right as I’m trying to downswing, does this feel seem about right? 
 

there’s some Rory iron shots from the rear views that show this brilliantly but I don’t know how to clip it, it looks like his pelvis and has moved one whole buttcheek before the club starts moving down 

Edited September 28, 2023 by metaldog

[golfarb1]

5 hours ago, metaldog said:

So I’ve been trying to introduce this concept for awhile and would appreciate some help for the timing for this, I’m generally part of the too late group, I’m trying to really look at how pros time it and when I do swing it well, it almost feels like my mass and weight has finished shifting left around when the backswing is done or slightly right as I’m trying to downswing, does this feel seem about right? 
 

there’s some Rory iron shots from the rear views that show this brilliantly but I don’t know how to clip it, it looks like his pelvis and has moved one whole buttcheek before the club starts moving down 

If you have an IPhone , clipping  and editing videos is simple .
Use the space bar to slow the swing . 
The movement of his sacrum( lower middle of his spine ) towards the target is obvious , comes late in his back swing ( after lead arm is parallel ) and is visually separate from his transition .

No one seems to doubt that top players make this move . 

Two questions come up .

What is the catalyst that starts this  “ recentering”. Shaun Webb seems to be stating that it is a reaction to lateral movement away from the target earlier in the backswing , but I am not convinced .

How is this “ recentering “ taught , especially considering that the transition is happening very shortly afterwards . 

Edited September 28, 2023 by golfarb1

[getitdaily]

52 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

If you have an IPhone , clipping  and editing videos is simple .
Use the space bar to slow the swing . 
The movement of his sacrum( lower middle of his spine ) towards the target is obvious , comes late in his back swing ( after lead arm is parallel ) and is visually separate from his transition .

No one seems to doubt that top players make this move . 

Two questions come up .

What is the catalyst that starts this  “ recentering”. Shaun Webb seems to be stating that it is a reaction to lateral movement away from the target earlier in the backswing , but I am not convinced .

How is this “ recentering “ taught , especially considering that the transition is happening very shortly afterwards . 

 

RPReplay_Final1695931125.mov 5.27 MB · 0 downloads

Just my theory, but I believe it's a combination of pressure down into the lead foot and the momentum of the arms and shoulders from p3 to p4. That momentum forces the entire body to shift toward the target unless one actively resists it. 

 

Likely another reason why the backswing shouldn't be slow...faster means more momentum means more recentered means better positions into impact.

[Nels55]

This video explains GF vs. front, center or rear post:

 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

This video explains GF vs. front, center or rear post:

 

Good video

[Jeselnik]

On 9/28/2023 at 4:58 PM, getitdaily said:

Just my theory, but I believe it's a combination of pressure down into the lead foot and the momentum of the arms and shoulders from p3 to p4. That momentum forces the entire body to shift toward the target unless one actively resists it. 

 

Likely another reason why the backswing shouldn't be slow...faster means more momentum means more recentered means better positions into impact.

Looks like a loss of pressure as left knee bends.

 

JNIK

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Nels55 said:

This video explains GF vs. front, center or rear post:

 

This is super interesting based on several of my range experiences, particularly the leg dominance test mentioned at 4:35. Whenever I feel like my lower body action is getting loose and my low point and contact starts suffering i've always known I can go back to "feet together" to reset myself a bit, and i'm legitimately only about 1 club shorter when I do that. That is a regular drill for me on the range with 5-irons when i'm monitoring ball speed and contact. I always want to live within a certain ballspeed range, and when I start dipping a bit due to inefficiencies/contact issues i'll go into "feet together chipping stance" mode and consistently live just a tick beneath it with pretty consistent contact and direction. Kinda confirms what I suspected that I hang around just a little too long on the rear post and can't get back to the front in time, especially if i'm a little tired.