Skins payout question (Same hole, two different pars for men/women)

[2bGood]

Simple answer.....😉

 

If it is a net event there is a calculation that takes into account the different par for men and women, resulting in the women getting more strokes as the WHS have different rating for men and women. As they are already getting the 'extra' strokes they don't also get a bonus stroke on the holes (that is already baked into the calculation).

 

As said earlier though, skins is not part of the ROG. So each completion needs to figure out how they want to handle this. 

 

 

[rogolf]

Keep it simple, as in mixed match play, par is irrelevant - the lowest number of strokes for the hole wins.

[North Texas]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

Keep it simple, as in mixed match play, par is irrelevant - the lowest number of strokes for the hole wins.

 

Yes, par is irrelevant if both players are playing a hole with the same par 😉

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Yes, par is irrelevant if both players are playing a hole with the same par 😉

Still irrelevant in match play, including mixed match play. Fewest number of strokes to complete the hole wins, whether it’s an eagle, birdie, par, bogey or triple bogey (all of those are related to par, but are totally irrelevant).

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, rogolf said:

Still irrelevant in match play, including mixed match play. Fewest number of strokes to complete the hole wins, whether it’s an eagle, birdie, par, bogey or triple bogey (all of those are related to par, but are totally irrelevant).

 

Is that true ?

 

So while I've never played such a match, if I'm playing a match against a female and she's playing a par 5 and for me, it's a par 4,,,,,,,, she makes (birdie) 4 and I make (birdie) 3, *I* win the hole ?

 

That's very interesting,,,,,,,, still sounds very wrong but,,,,,,,,,,

[rogolf]

19 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Is that true ?

 

So while I've never played such a match, if I'm playing a match against a female and she's playing a par 5 and for me, it's a par 4,,,,,,,, she makes (birdie) 4 and I make (birdie) 3, *I* win the hole ?

 

That's very interesting,,,,,,,, still sounds very wrong but,,,,,,,,,,

Yes, you win the hole because you completed it in fewer strokes than your opponent.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Yes, you win the hole because you completed it in fewer strokes than your opponent.

 

The question was kinda rhetorical. I believed you, and still do.

 

Still sounds wrong to me though.

 

Good thing it's unlikely I'll ever need to worry about it.

[2bGood]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

The question was kinda rhetorical. I believed you, and still do.

 

Still sounds wrong to me though.

 

Good thing it's unlikely I'll ever need to worry about it.

 

Most club events with mixed match play are net event. The WHS has this all figured out (or at least one solution), with the women & men playing the same tees, they both have their own rating. The result is a women play with more strokes even if they have the same index. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by 2bGood

[North Texas]

I think the next time I play someone in match play, I'm going to move up on all the par 5's where I can play them as par 4's while he has to play them as  par 5's. 

 

And then I'm going tell him that low gross score wins those holes. I'm sure that he will have no problem with that 😉

Edited November 28, 2023 by North Texas

[st1800e]

7 minutes ago, North Texas said:

I think the next time I play someone in match play, I'm going to move up on all the par 5's where I can play them as par 4's while he has to play them as  par 5's. 

 

And then I'm going tell him that low gross score wins those holes. I'm sure that he will have no problem with that 😉

Let us know how that turns out.  

[2bGood]

22 hours ago, North Texas said:

I think the next time I play someone in match play, I'm going to move up on all the par 5's where I can play them as par 4's while he has to play them as  par 5's. 

 

And then I'm going tell him that low gross score wins those holes. I'm sure that he will have no problem with that 😉

If it was a handicap match, then I am not sure why it would be an issue, by moving up you would give away more strokes.

 

If it was a gross match, it would seem only natural (and what is outlined in ROG) to play low gross score wins the hole. 

 

Really, the only odd part is that you get to choose your tee box, I have not seen a Match play event that is organised like that, and could not conceive of a gross play event with that feature. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by 2bGood

[rogolf]

57 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

If it was a handicap match, then I am not sure why it would be an issue, by moving up you would give away more strokes.

 

If it was a gross match, it would seem only natural (and what is outlined in ROG) to play low gross score wins the hole. 

 

Really the odd part is that you get to choose your tee box, I have not seen a Match play event that is organised like that, and could not conceive of a gross play event with that feature. 

Agree.  What he had proposed was just using different tees on specific holes (par 5's), which is totally unheard of.  His opponent should recall the strokes played from outside the correct teeing area.

[davep043]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Agree.  What he had proposed was just using different tees on specific holes (par 5's), which is totally unheard of.  His opponent should recall the strokes played from outside the correct teeing area.

Exactly what I thought, this gives him two opportunities to screw up off the tee.  If he hits a good one, I require him to replay the stroke from the correct tee (without penalty).  If he hits a bad tee shot, he'll play it as it lies.

[North Texas]

Did no one even notice my "winking eye?

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, North Texas said:

Did no one even notice my "winking eye?

I missed it!  Sorry.

[bluedot]

Tough question; I could argue this either way.  I think it’s a decision for the commish to make, and announce in advance.  In a gross skins game, this is a pretty tricky issue.

 

But to give an answer:  I think I’d lean toward making it a net skins game, and let the stroke allocation take care of the issue of different pars.  I’m assuming here that while par for all the men is 4, some are getting a shot, while others don’t?  If one guy is getting a shot and makes 4/net 3, and the woman isn’t getting a shot and makes 4/net 4, the guy wins.  Or vice versa if the woman is getting a shot.

 

Would it perhaps be better to play a points game on the days that you have this situation?

[davep043]

34 minutes ago, bluedot said:

 I think I’d lean toward making it a net skins game, and let the stroke allocation take care of the issue of different pars.

I'd take this approach as well.  Itys important to understand that the Playing Handicap of each player will be adjusted to take the differing pars into consideration.  That is, a Player playing a par-73 course (perhaps the woman in this case)  will have her Playing Handicap increased by 2 strokes when playing against a player on the par 71 tees (perhaps the man).  These strokes may not fall on the par 4/5 hole, but she'll get them somewhere along the way.  This is in the USGA areas, or anywhere else that uses the (par-Course Rating) term in calculating Course Handicap, I know that's not used everywhere (yet?).

[rogolf]

Reiterating (again), par is irrelevant in both gross and net.  It's the fewest strokes that wins the hole.

 

[nsxguy]

On 11/27/2023 at 10:18 PM, North Texas said:

I think the next time I play someone in match play, I'm going to move up on all the par 5's where I can play them as par 4's while he has to play them as  par 5's. 

 

And then I'm going tell him that low gross score wins those holes. I'm sure that he will have no problem with that 😉

 

I just looked closely and still can't tell if that little guy is winking. 😉

 

The bigger & better emojis are at the bottom (not sure why).

 

Once you use them they also show at the top (recently used).

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

39 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Reiterating (again)

 

Isn't that redundant ?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Isn't that redundant ?

Just as redundant as the continuing references to par!

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Just as redundant as the continuing references to par!

 

Phew !!! Sure glad I stopped referring to par.

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Reiterating (again), par is irrelevant in both gross and net.  It's the fewest strokes that wins the hole.

 

Clearly correct in match play, which is covered in great detail in the Rules.

 

But various gambling games like skins are not covered in the Rules, and if in a skins game, the woman is made a birdie while none of the men did, well, you COULD make the argument that she wins a skin for that birdie.  Obviously, you could also argue your position just as well, if not better.  
 

But this, like all questions arising out of games like points and skins, is “extra-legal”; it’s simply not covered in the Rules.  So a decision in advance by the commish seems the best way to handle this one. 

[rogolf]

18 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Clearly correct in match play, which is covered in great detail in the Rules.

 

But various gambling games like skins are not covered in the Rules, and if in a skins game, the woman is made a birdie while none of the men did, well, you COULD make the argument that she wins a skin for that birdie.  Obviously, you could also argue your position just as well, if not better.  
 

But this, like all questions arising out of games like points and skins, is “extra-legal”; it’s simply not covered in the Rules.  So a decision in advance by the commish seems the best way to handle this one. 

Not only the best way, but the only way.

As you know this is a Rules of golf forum! 😀

Edited November 29, 2023 by rogolf

[bluedot]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Not only the best way, but the only way.

As you know this is a Rules of golf forum! 😀

Well played, sir; well played!

[Imp]

Thanks for the input everyone. Was away from the computer for a bit. Allow me to address some of the questions and background. 

 

Group of 32 players. Playing a net stableford as the main points driver to determine the winner(s). Gross and net skins are side pots where if anyone in the field has the "lowest score" on any hole they get a portion of the pot. These games are not covered in the rules.

 

Once could argue, and it has been argued, that "lowest score" is a shortened version of "lowest score relative to par", since it's not a RoG question. 

 

  

On 11/29/2023 at 1:07 PM, rogolf said:

Not only the best way, but the only way.

As you know this is a Rules of golf forum! 😀

 

This was originally posted in General for the very reason it is outside the RoG and was targeting those that run events in groups and appears a mod moved it. 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

Once could argue, and it has been argued, that "lowest score" is a shortened version of "lowest score relative to par", since it's not a RoG question. 

Its perhaps a more direct interpretation to suggest that "lowest score" actually means "lowest score".

 

The question that could clarify this a bit more, is the Playing Handicap for the women adjusted upward to reflect the difference in course par for them?  If not, the use of score relative to par makes sense, they essentially get an extra handicap stroke on those specific few holes where par is different.  If the Playing Handicap IS adjusted, then actual score makes more sense, as the women have received an extra stroke somewhere, as determined by the handicap indexing.

[Augster]

If it’s a net Stableford, then using Stableford score for the hole makes the most sense for skins to me. 
 

She makes a birdie 4, it’s 3 points whereas the men make par 4, it’s only 2 points. She gets the skin. 
 

But this should really be laid out on the hard card beforehand. And I only add this as an option because the format is Stableford. 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

If it’s a net Stableford, then using Stableford score for the hole makes the most sense for skins to me. 
 

She makes a birdie 4, it’s 3 points whereas the men make par 4, it’s only 2 points. She gets the skin. 
 

But this should really be laid out on the hard card beforehand. And I only add this as an option because the format is Stableford. 

I agree with this, assuming that her handicap hasn't been adjusted for the differing pars, as would be done in stroke play competitions.  For her to receive a higher handicap and get Stableford points based on the higher par would be "double-dipping".

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

I agree with this, assuming that her handicap hasn't been adjusted for the differing pars, as would be done in stroke play competitions.  For her to receive a higher handicap and get Stableford points based on the higher par would be "double-dipping".

 

Isn't Stableford a stroke play competition ?

 

Someone, or more than one someone, said to keep it simple.

 

As Augie said, it can't be much more simple than using the Stableford points.