Skins payout question (Same hole, two different pars for men/women)

[Imp]

Question on skins payout. Is it lowest number where ties carry over regardless of par for the hole, OR is it pars/birds/eagles? 

 

One course has a hole that is a Par 4 for men, Par 5 for women. 

 

If all the men that played that day got a 4 on that hole, and the one woman on the group did also, is that a push because lowest score, OR does the woman get the skin because she got a Bird? 

 

I ask because the software I'm using is just looking at lowest score, not relative to par. I'm thinking that the bird wins, yeah?

[Rosey31]

We have a hole like that at our course. When we play our game for skins, if some people play the forward tees due to age/quota it’s played a par 4 for everyone. My guess is you’d do the same for your game unless you have two different pools one for men and one for women. 
 

My .02$

[mark m]

It can be tricky when different tees are used, and they might have different pars as well. Different genders adds another possible complication. A different pool is probably the best policy, or at least it should be clearly defined. But typically around here you can earn a giant skin only with birdies or better. So in this case, the woman would get it. I’ve used a policy for scrambles where if all holes/skins are tied, then we go to the hole(s) with the fewest ties and pay those groups. But policies for ties (not just skins, but position as well) should be stated on the handouts. Playoff, scorecard, etc. Good luck.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by mark m

[Wooley12]

 It seems to me that as the differences in par was made for fairness. Meaning that it was deemed that players with average forward tee ability would still need 3 shots to get to the green. Lady, or senior, shot one under par and beat 4 pars. I would feel comfortable and pay up. Depending on the size of the pot, of course 🤣

[Nickb333]

Assuming there was a decent distance advantage for the women… par equals par. 
 

That said, pretty sure there is a formula. When you mix handicaps, age, sex, and tee boxes, someone won’t be happy. 

[davep043]

To me, skins are a form of match play, and in match play its the actual score that matters, not its relation to par.  If its a net game, the Playing Handicaps of the woman should be adjusted based on the difference in course par, she'll get an extra stroke somewhere, which could offset any disadvantage she has on this par4/5 hole.  

[MountainKing]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

To me, skins are a form of match play, and in match play its the actual score that matters, not its relation to par.  If its a net game, the Playing Handicaps of the woman should be adjusted based on the difference in course par, she'll get an extra stroke somewhere, which could offset any disadvantage she has on this par4/5 hole.  

 

In the couple of mixed events I've been in that had skins game, this is how it went.  Par didn't matter, it was always lowest score got the skin.

[Augster]

Score gets the skin. 
 

Unless you’re playing stableford. Then most points on the hole gets the skin. Gross and/or net. 

[rgk5]

Sometimes in our group we play a net game, teams of four with handicaps ranging from 1-18, total net for front, back and totals.  In the gross games, typically two man best ball, we pay team skins based on gross score.  In the net game we do not pay skins based on the best gross score in the group.

 

To my mind, this is idiotic as we still have a gross score for each player.

[North Texas]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

To me, skins are a form of match play, and in match play its the actual score that matters, not its relation to par.  If its a net game, the Playing Handicaps of the woman should be adjusted based on the difference in course par, she'll get an extra stroke somewhere, which could offset any disadvantage she has on this par4/5 hole.  

 

So it doesn't matter that one player was playing a par 5 while the other player was playing a par 4?

[North Texas]

6 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

In the couple of mixed events I've been in that had skins game, this is how it went.  Par didn't matter, it was always lowest score got the skin.

 

So it doesn't matter that one player was playing a par 5 while the other player was playing a par 4?

[davep043]

10 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

So it doesn't matter that one player was playing a par 5 while the other player was playing a par 4?

In match play, it does not matter at all, its the actual score on the hole, whether gross or net.  As I said, in a handicapped competition, Playing Handicaps are adjusted based on the difference in course par.  However, any extra strokes are applied per the handicap indexing, not specifically to that hole.

[MountainKing]

14 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

So it doesn't matter that one player was playing a par 5 while the other player was playing a par 4?

 

No - like Dave mentioned, par isn't relevant in match play.

[North Texas]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

In match play, it does not matter at all, its the actual score on the hole, whether gross or net.  As I said, in a handicapped competition, Playing Handicaps are adjusted based on the difference in course par.  However, any extra strokes are applied per the handicap indexing, not specifically to that hole.

 

There is no indication in the original post that they were playing match play. 

[North Texas]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

 

No - like Dave mentioned, par isn't relevant in match play.

 

But they were not playing match play. 

[MountainKing]

Just now, North Texas said:

 

But they were not playing match play. 

 

How is a skins game not a form of match play?

[North Texas]

2 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

How is a skins game not a form of match play?

 

Because holes tied in match play do not carry over like they do in skins. And in skins you could have multiple groups where not all groups are playing the same hole at the same time. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by North Texas

[MountainKing]

1 minute ago, North Texas said:

 

Because holes tied in match play do not carry over like they do in skins. And in skins you could have multiple groups where not all groups are playing the same hole at the same time. 

 

How does any of that matter?  Lowest score wins the skin.  You're not adding up strokes at the end, you're looking at the lowest score for the hole.  That aligns with match play. It doesn't matter matter if it's 4 people playing the game or 400.

[North Texas]

8 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

How does any of that matter?  Lowest score wins the skin.  You're not adding up strokes at the end, you're looking at the lowest score for the hole.  That aligns with match play. It doesn't matter matter if it's 4 people playing the game or 400.

 

But carrying over holes doesn't align with match play. 

 

Of course, as some have alluded to, all of this is easily addressed by spelling everything out prior to teeing off including how handicaps will allocated. 

[MountainKing]

5 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

But carrying over holes doesn't align with match play. 

 

Of course, as some have alluded to, all of this is easily addressed by spelling everything out prior to teeing off including how handicaps will allocated. 

 

I really feel like you're just messing with me at this point on this one...

 

Right out of a golf glossary:

 

Skin

A skins game pits players in a type of match play in which each hole has a set value (usually in money or points). The player who wins the hole is said to win the "skin", and whatever that skin is worth. Skins games may be more dramatic than standard match play if it is agreed by the players that holes are not halved. Then, when any two players tie on a given hole, the value of that hole is carried over and added to the value of the following hole. The more ties, the greater the value of the skin and the bigger the eventual payoff.

 

 

[North Texas]

6 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I really feel like you're just messing with me at this point on this one...

 

Right out of a golf glossary:

 

Skin

A skins game pits players in a type of match play in which each hole has a set value (usually in money or points). The player who wins the hole is said to win the "skin", and whatever that skin is worth. Skins games may be more dramatic than standard match play if it is agreed by the players that holes are not halved. Then, when any two players tie on a given hole, the value of that hole is carried over and added to the value of the following hole. The more ties, the greater the value of the skin and the bigger the eventual payoff.

 

 

 

I'm really not meaning to mess with you. I just think this is fascinating discussion and really not meaning to be difficult or anything like that. And I apologize to both you and @davep043 if it's come across way. That was not my intent. 

 

I just think the aspect of there being different pars for different players on the same hole complicates the issue. Assuming neither player gets handicap strokes on said hole, I've never seen a player birdie a hole and tie someone who parred it. That doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Obviously, it is something should be addressed prior to play so that everyone knows how it will be scored. 

[mark m]

From the OP, it sounds like multiple groups were in the skins game and it’s why I referred to it as a “giant skins” game. There are no carryovers and no concessions. There is a pot of money from those who entered the game. And around here it’s birdies or better. One tie, y’all tie. 
 

Leaving aside the gender issue and just looking at men with the different par situation: I have played courses where the tips are way back (say 550) and it’s a par 5, and the other tees are up (under 400 yards) because of a long forced carry situation, and it’s a par 4. Ideally they would spell out how this hole will be handled in the skins game. Again, before play, not after. It might be beast to say no skins will be awarded for this particular hole.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by mark m

[davep043]

1 hour ago, North Texas said:

 

There is no indication in the original post that they were playing match play. 

Let me be clear here, "skins" is not governed by any Rules of Golf or Handicapping Rules.  Its its own bastardized gambling format.  In evaluating what "should" be done, I look to the recognized format that most closely resembles Skins, and to me that format is Match Play.  And in Match Play, the score counts, not the score in relation to par.  My opinion isn't authoritative, its not backed up by the Rules of Golf, its merely my opinion.  But I can define something within the rules that supports my opinion while those who would support a different solution are using logic and feelings, separate from anything in the Rules.  One way or another, the ONLY right thing that MUST be done is to define the parameters prior to the competition.

Separately, if you would want to refer to Stroke Play rules, its still the total score that counts, and Playing Handicaps would be adjusted based on differing course ratings and pars for different tees.

[MountainKing]

28 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Let me be clear here, "skins" is not governed by any Rules of Golf or Handicapping Rules.  Its its own bastardized gambling format.  In evaluating what "should" be done, I look to the recognized format that most closely resembles Skins, and to me that format is Match Play.  And in Match Play, the score counts, not the score in relation to par.  My opinion isn't authoritative, its not backed up by the Rules of Golf, its merely my opinion.  But I can define something within the rules that supports my opinion while those who would support a different solution are using logic and feelings, separate from anything in the Rules.  One way or another, the ONLY right thing that MUST be done is to define the parameters prior to the competition.

Separately, if you would want to refer to Stroke Play rules, its still the total score that counts, and Playing Handicaps would be adjusted based on differing course ratings and pars for different tees.

 

How you view skins is more or less how I think most people view it.  If you're playing in a small skins game with your 4some, you generally follow the rules of match play.   The big events like OP is talking about, that might be taking place within a stroke play event, it's still in line with match play in that low score wins the hole for the pot.  I would say your opinion is pretty in line with how most golfers think about this.

[nsxguy]

I should first say that I've never played in such an event.

 

Firstly, it's a NET event, yes ? Don't see any other way.

 

But with different tee sets, and especially different pars, I see no other (fair) way of paying skins except to use eagle/birdie/par using each player's playing handicap.

 

How can a man's "birdie 3" beat a woman's "birdie 4" on the same hole ? Makes zero sense to me.

[North Texas]

33 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

I should first say that I've never played in such an event.

 

Firstly, it's a NET event, yes ? Don't see any other way.

 

But with different tee sets, and especially different pars, I see no other (fair) way of paying skins except to use eagle/birdie/par using each player's playing handicap.

 

How can a man's "birdie 3" beat a woman's "birdie 4" on the same hole ? Makes zero sense to me.

 

I'm not sure we know if it was a NET or GROSS event. 

 

The issue seems to be how do you score it in a skins game with different players playing the same hole but one player playing it as a par 5 and one player playing it as a par 4. If both players make a 4, are the two 4's the same score or is one 4 better than the other 4?

 

There are strong feelings on both sides. 

[nsxguy]

15 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

I'm not sure we know if it was a NET or GROSS event. 

 

The issue seems to be how do you score it in a skins game with different players playing the same hole but one player playing it as a par 5 and one player playing it as a par 4. If both players make a 4, are the two 4's the same score or is one 4 better than the other 4?

 

There are strong feelings on both sides. 

 

From the OP (AND subsequent posts), I got the impression there was a fairly wide range of golfers playing. That being the case there would likely be a fairly wide range of handicaps as well.

 

Assuming that IS the case, how on earth could it be gross skins ? Unless it was a flighted event (and even then,,,,,,,,)

 

As for the "issue", I did make my opinion clear, yes ?

[kiwigolf72]

We had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago.

3 way Matchplay no strokes.

Long par 4 for me and the other guy, we both make par. Par 5 for the girl she also makes par.

We tried to convince her that because we had both made 4 and she had made a 5 that we had won the hole. She wasn't buying it. 😆

[North Texas]

10 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

We had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago.

3 way Matchplay no strokes.

Long par 4 for me and the other guy, we both make par. Par 5 for the girl she also makes par.

We tried to convince her that because we had both made 4 and she had made a 5 that we had won the hole. She wasn't buying it. 😆

 

I don't blame her 😀

Edited November 22, 2023 by North Texas

[kiwigolf72]

4 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

I don't blame her 😀

She shot 32 on the back 9 and cleaned us up. I was ok with calling it a half. I think the other guy was a bit dark on the decision.

Edited November 22, 2023 by kiwigolf72