To the instructors here, how honest would you say you are with you're students?

[hacker113]

I know almost no instructor would tell their student that they're terrible, but let's say you have a student you're working with ask if he or she has potential to get down to mid, single digits, or even scratch or better, would you just be respectful and say they can if they work hard enough or would you be 100% honest with them that they can or can't do it.

[MonteScheinblum]

I’m honest a fault at times.  I tell it like it is.

 

I say this all the time.  
 

You do 8 things out of 10 like a 5 handicap and you do 2 out of 10 like a 25.  That’s why you’re a 14.  Most get it.  “So if I work hard on the 2 things I do like a 25 I can get down to a 5-8 cap?”

 

CORRECT!!!!!!

[iacas]

What @MonteScheinblum said.

 

Some people don't like me because I'm pretty direct and honest. Other people like me for the same exact reason.

[hacker113]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m honest a fault at times.  I tell it like it is.

 

I say this all the time.  
 

You do 8 things out of 10 like a 5 handicap and you do 2 out of 10 like a 25.  That’s why you’re a 14.  Most get it.  “So if I work hard on the 2 things I do like a 25 I can get down to a 5-8 cap?”

 

CORRECT!!!!!!

wish i could get a coach as blunt as you, my last instructor seemed to sugarcoat things to much to me

[hacker113]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

What @MonteScheinblum said.

 

Some people don't like me because I'm pretty direct and honest. Other people like me for the same exact reason.

I wonder how often instructors bs people telling them they are super talented which massively inflates their egos and they pretty soon realize they're just like everyone else.

[noodle3872]

17 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m honest a fault at times.  I tell it like it is.

 

I say this all the time.  
 

You do 8 things out of 10 like a 5 handicap and you do 2 out of 10 like a 25.  That’s why you’re a 14.  Most get it.  “So if I work hard on the 2 things I do like a 25 I can get down to a 5-8 cap?”

 

CORRECT!!!!!!

 

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

What @MonteScheinblum said.

 

Some people don't like me because I'm pretty direct and honest. Other people like me for the same exact reason.

I imagine you both have lost clients being honest. Do you change your approach if a client seems to be sensitive to too much honesty?

[Soloman1]

Handicap curve.

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Soloman1

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, hacker113 said:

wish i could get a coach as blunt as you, my last instructor seemed to sugarcoat things to much to me

 

Ask him to be.

 

11 minutes ago, noodle3872 said:

I imagine you both have lost clients being honest. Do you change your approach if a client seems to be sensitive to too much honesty?

 

Definitely have.

 

Taught a guy the same thing for about three or four lessons in a row, spread out over a few months. Asked him how much he's practicing, and how. He said "I don't like to practice, I just play."

 

That was the last lesson with that guy. I'm not a magician, and I don't give out magic tips as they don't exist. The guy needed to change a habit, but wasn't willing to. I think I said something (nicely, but honestly and bluntly) to the effect of "you can't really expect to get better if you don't work at changing your habits. You can't just "try" to do something differently and expect to pull it off."

 

Within reason, I'm not going to change what I do. I'm me. (There's a decent amount of room in the italicized phrase.) But you'll always know, if you pay any attention at all, what I'm asking of you and what I expect of you (the student).

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, noodle3872 said:

 

I imagine you both have lost clients being honest. Do you change your approach if a client seems to be sensitive to too much honesty?

My approach is not right for everyone.  If someone doesn’t like my approach they will find someone else who they do like and that’s not only OK, its best for both of us.

 

Why should both of us be unhappy?

[Brian Manzella]

I think almost anyone can be single-digits.

 

The limitations are basically strength or severe physical limitations.

 

I don't waste any time with pleasantries, a $300 hr it is time to get to work.

 

But, to your question....I tell 36 year old, athletic 20'cappers all the time that they are this bad at golf because their technique stinks. And the easiest thing for me to do is make a double-digit handicap into a single digit.

 

Takes a lot of time, but it is more than doable.

[hacker113]

39 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

I think almost anyone can be single-digits.

 

The limitations are basically strength or severe physical limitations.

 

I don't waste any time with pleasantries, a $300 hr it is time to get to work.

 

But, to your question....I tell 36 year old, athletic 20'cappers all the time that they are this bad at golf because their technique stinks. And the easiest thing for me to do is make a double-digit handicap into a single digit.

 

Takes a lot of time, but it is more than doable.

I get told all the time how pretty and smooth my swing is even thought I'm aware of my technical flaws, it's so frustrating 

[MBAndrews21]

3 hours ago, hacker113 said:

I get told all the time how pretty and smooth my swing is even thought I'm aware of my technical flaws, it's so frustrating 

 

[Soloman1]

OK, I was being facetious.

 

Everyone has different goals. Some just want to fix their slice, or want more distance with their drives, or a better short game. And that’s about it. Give ‘em what they want with what they’ve brought as best you can. They’re looking for a quick fix.

 

Others have overall goals that are going to require some changes, and we all know people hate change. It’s going to take some time and practice to embed a different feel consistently.

 

Teaching is no different than the game itself - one shot (or thing) at a time to get closer to your potential. Sure, you can see quickly that some people have more potential than others, but that’s dependent on them as much as you.

 

Encouragement isn’t a bad or fake thing. Progress begets progress, so one success at a time.

 

A good analogy might be someone going to the gym. A 50-year old guy with the body of a bowling pin who wants to get off the sofa once per week for 30 minutes doesn’t need a goal of being an elite six-pack model. How about starting a little a time. Get closer to your potential.

 

One thing is for sure. If you have no goal, that’s what you’ll achieve.

[mikpga]

14 hours ago, hacker113 said:

I know almost no instructor would tell their student that they're terrible, but let's say you have a student you're working with ask if he or she has potential to get down to mid, single digits, or even scratch or better, would you just be respectful and say they can if they work hard enough or would you be 100% honest with them that they can or can't do it.

Key is to create realistic goals first and foremost.  Making an honest assessment of current abilities, and then set realistic goals.  Any good coach will be honest.  Encourage when needed, and brutally honest when needed.

 

 

[Sp4zRX]

I had several instructors tell me I had a good swing when I was posting rounds 95-105. I was always thinking “if I have such a good swing, then why am I such a hack?” Monte was the first person to tell me “you have a decent swing with a flaw of a 25hcp. This flaw is ruining your swing.” It stung a little bit but at the same time it motivated me knowing there was actually something I could work on to make big gains. It also put a higher sense of urgency on addressing the issue being that he basically put a number on how bad it was. 
 

I prefer the brutal honesty as I suspect most people do. I would think most people going in for a lesson are under no illusions about the quality of their swing. They are there because the know something is wrong and want to address the issues. 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

OK, I was being facetious.

 

Everyone has different goals. Some just want to fix their slice, or want more distance with their drives, or a better short game. And that’s about it. Give ‘em what they want with what they’ve brought as best you can. They’re looking for a quick fix.

 

Others have overall goals that are going to require some changes, and we all know people hate change. It’s going to take some time and practice to embed a different feel consistently.

 

Teaching is no different than the game itself - one shot (or thing) at a time to get closer to your potential. Sure, you can see quickly that some people have more potential than others, but that’s dependent on them as much as you.

 

Encouragement isn’t a bad or fake thing. Progress begets progress, so one success at a time.

 

A good analogy might be someone going to the gym. A 50-year old guy with the body of a bowling pin who wants to get off the sofa once per week for 30 minutes doesn’t need a goal of being an elite six-pack model. How about starting a little a time. Get closer to your potential.

 

One thing is for sure. If you have no goal, that’s what you’ll achieve.

What you wrote here regarding goals makes perfect sense and setting reasonable goals is a good strategy.  Also people do often hate change depending on what the change is.  There are really hard changes and then there is another kind of change where in the case of a golfer you get to a try this and try that state.  It can be a constant series of useless changes searching for the magic move that will make the swing perfect instantly.  I have done this and I have seen friends do this for years.  For instance my friend Tom has a new setup or movement that he saw on TV or read in a magazine nearly every round.  His changes usually are not visible but sometimes they are.  With some changes I know instantly that it is going to be a long day until he gives up on whatever it is while others will actually work for some period of time until they don't and he is on to another tip.  

 

So I would say that some people hate real difficult change but love easy changes that promise a state of perfect happiness.

[naval2006]

I taught English as a foreign language to adult students for years so I’ve seen a thing or two. 
 

Now golf teaching to adults is one of the greatest mysteries in the teaching industry. The subject is way too hard to grasp and often students don’t cooperate much. 

You see a lot of times students who explain to teachers why they’re not hitting; students who don’t like being corrected; students who strongly believe a lesson will solve their problems for good; students who feel entitled because they pay a bunch for a lesson.

 

There are bad instructors but you see more frequently students with a bad attitude than poor coaches.  I fully sympathize with instructors who care because part of their job is to help their serious students set realist goals, not just fixing the early extension or the flipping. 

[tomba51]

I definitely want a coach to tell me in no uncertain terms what my weaknesses are, but I also want that coach to support my goals. Let's say I went to a coach and I told him that my goal was to get to a single digit handicap and that I was willing to take regular lessons and practice diligently.  If he told me that I was incapable of achieving that goal, that would be the last lesson that I would take with that coach. I need a coach that believes in me, supports my goals, and believes in his own ability to coach me.

Edited December 18, 2023 by tomba51

[Phabs]

You can tell by responses who’s been coached before and who’s been coddled.   

[MikeW2]

5 minutes ago, Phabs said:

You can tell by responses who’s been coached before and who’s been coddled.   

This is so true. Was a member at a club about 30 years ago and the membership was mostly pretentious, self absorbed snobs. It was not a great experience. The pro was a no nonsense straight to the point kinda guy and his style of teaching ruffled the feathers of the wrong board members. He was a truly good person and a good teacher if you were willing to take his coaching. The board member called for a vote to replace him at the monthly meeting. The day of the meeting I played 9 with him which I had done about once a week and he was confused by the call for his job. I told him point blank that he was dealing with people who had never played sports and had never been anything but coddled for their entire lives, the hard coaching and direct approach was not going to fly with the majority of this membership group. Could he have softened his talking/coaching style? Sure, but he was just being himself and trying to help people improve. They fired him but he wound up at a much nicer club for more pay where he stayed for close to 20 years.

[MonteScheinblum]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:50 PM, hacker113 said:

I get told all the time how pretty and smooth my swing is even thought I'm aware of my technical flaws, it's so frustrating 

Common narrative.  If you have slow tempo and a scratch finish, the perception is that’s a good swing.

[virtuoso]

If you're trying to help a guy, sometimes complete honesty is helpful...sometimes not. Soul crushing honesty is hard to listen to, and it's just my opinion...I've been proven wrong, and "honesty" from a moron does not equal truth.

 

I love it it when people admire some clown for "telling it like it is." You mean what the clown thinks it is?

 

...and, people love to celebrate "brutal honesty" until they actually get some themselves.

Edited December 18, 2023 by virtuoso

[skim4]

If i'm paying an instructor I want the cold hard facts/ opinions. Tell me my swing is trash and how to fix it. 

Not a fan of sugar coated golf instruction but its probably necessary for beginners. 

 

Not an instructor. 

[tomba51]

It's fine for an instructor to tell you something like "we have a lot of flaws to fix", or "it's going to be a difficult task that will take a lot of work on your part and there will be lots of frustration before you achieve your goals". But if an instructor tells you that your goals are unachievable run for the nearest exit ASAP. That tells you as much about the instructor's ability to teach as it does about your own potential. The world is full of people who achieved greatness despite naysayers along the way. As a professional musician, I know of many musicians who were told they had no talent, but achieved greatness anyway.

[TobesSC]

30 minutes ago, skim4 said:

If i'm paying an instructor I want the cold hard facts/ opinions. Tell me my swing is trash and how to fix it. 

Not a fan of sugar coated golf instruction but its probably necessary for beginners. 

 

Not an instructor. 

I totally agree with this with the one caveat being they need to see me hit some shots first.  Seeing an instructor and did 2 full swing lessons.  Third lesson starts and he says maybe we should do short game lesson, I said sure been struggling a bit with chips shots lately but mostly cause I don't practice at all.  He looks in my bag and says you don't have a hybrid, you should chip with a hybrid.  We then proceed to go to short game area and before I hit a shot he hands me his hybrid and asks me to hit some shots.  I was pretty frustrated cause low runners are not the issue and even if they were, don't you want to see my current approach first?

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

[...] and "honesty" from a moron does not equal truth.

 

I love it it when people admire some clown for "telling it like it is." You mean what the clown thinks it is?

Gotta love the Dunning-Kruger loudmouth

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, tomba51 said:

But if an instructor tells you that your goals are unachievable run for the nearest exit ASAP. That tells you as much about the instructor's ability to teach as it does about your own potential.

 

Eh, I've had some pretty outrageous goals shared with me. 😉 

[tomba51]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Eh, I've had some pretty outrageous goals shared with me. 😉 

Well, yeah, if a 75 year old 14 handicapper tells you that his goal is to win the next Masters, we can all agree that is unrealistic. But if that same 75 year old 14 handicapper says that his goal is to regularly break 80 within a year, it is up to the instructor to support that goal and help the golfer achieve it, not to tell the golfer that it is unrealistic.

[virtuoso]

38 minutes ago, tomba51 said:

Well, yeah, if a 75 year old 14 handicapper tells you that his goal is to win the next Masters, we can all agree that is unrealistic. But if that same 75 year old 14 handicapper says that his goal is to regularly break 80 within a year, it is up to the instructor to support that goal and help the golfer achieve it, not to tell the golfer that it is unrealistic.

So.....we are going to take a 75 year old 14 and take 10 strokes off his hdcp...in a year? 75.....you mean the guy with the flag on his cart?

[tomba51]

13 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

So.....we are going to take a 75 year old 14 and take 10 strokes off his hdcp...in a year? 75.....you mean the guy with the flag on his cart?

Wow, just wow. There are plenty of 75 year old guys who regularly break 80 (by regularly I mean about half their rounds, give or take), are single digit handicaps, and do not have a flag on their cart. A 14 handicapper can already break 80 occasionally so having a goal of wanting to do it more often is not unrealistic.