Moe/Bryson single plane swing thread

[ChaosTheory]

Let's have a thread for those of us who setup and swing with the high hands and straight lines of Moe Norman, Bryson D, etc.  Swings are hard to define with labels, but in the past on other forums, these swings have been called Single Axis, or SA swings for short.  There are several people teaching such swings these days, and I know there are a fair number of people here who use such swings.  I would ask that the naysayers please let this thread exist in peace for those who are using these swings and those who are interested.

 

Photo comes from Graves Golf:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

Do you use an SA swing?  Problems you are encountering?  Solutions you've found?

What about equipment?

Instruction you've found helpful or not?

Personal stories of why, how, etc.

 

 

[Bob M]

@ChaosTheory - Thanks for starting this thread! I am just starting on the SA journey and am looking forward to the discussion.

 

By way of background, I started playing golf in my early 30s, taking a number of lessons from a highly regarded local teacher who was heavily influenced by Hogan and had taught for Hank Haney for a while, probably in the 80s. For various reasons, I stopped playing in 2010, but took the game up again when I retired in 2019 and am still using the same conventional swing I was originally taught. 

 

Among my 2024 golf goals is to get my handicap index down to 18 or less from its current 20.7. In order to accomplish this goal, I need to do a much better job keeping the ball in play off the tee, including getting more accurate with my driver and eliminating my left bias, and get much more consistent in approach shots to get my GIR up to at least 5-6 per round, versus 3-4. Additionally, I'll be 68 when the season begins and would like to make some changes in my swing to make it easier on my joints, particularly my back. Research I've done suggests to me that moving to a SA swing should help me accomplish both. Additionally, I'm working on my short game, including putting, but will leave further discussion of this out for now. 

 

In this regard, I've found that there is a great deal of helpful content on YT, including Todd Grave, Kirk Junge and Chandler Rusk's sites which have been helpful in getting started. Finally, I like Rusk's approach and plan to get some online coaching from him in the near future. 

 

Like I said, I'm looking forward to the discussion in this thread. 

 

[Bob M]

As it was 45* in RI, I was able to hit a small bucket on the range today....my first effort "going live" with the single plane swing (mostly using what I have learned from Kirk Junge's YT page). In addition, it was my first-time hitting balls with JumboMax (Ultra lite, XS) grips. 

 

I warmed up with SW, then hit a number of 8-irons, followed by 5H, Driver and 5W. For each ball, I focused on setup and aim, taking one or two practice swings. I did not film today (no tripod yet) but felt that my positions were reasonably good, as were the results. Impact on the 8i, 5H and 5W were all quite good. Face impact on the driver was not great and will require more work. I hot only one really poor shot and hooked two, otherwise the shots would have been acceptable on course. 

 

It is going to snow tomorrow, so hitting balls outside again is unlikely for the next couple of weeks, by which time I'll have a tripod and can start filming my swings (using the V1 app). 

 

[Nels55]

Here is a link to the old Single Axis Golf Forum:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sagfmoderator/single-axis-golf-forum-f72052/

 

Pretty much dead now days but there is a ton of info on the various "SA" swings in there.  Along with a lot of inanities LOL.

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Here is a link to the old Single Axis Golf Forum:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/sagfmoderator/single-axis-golf-forum-f72052/

 

Pretty much dead now days but there is a ton of info on the various "SA" swings in there.  Along with a lot of inanities LOL.

Thanks for that, H.  I thought about posting it.  It’s probably around 20 years of discussion and exploration of SA swings, starting from the beginning of it all when Jack Kuykendall started Natural Golf.  And it is searchable.

[ChaosTheory]

I’m working on my swing right now.  I discovered that I was setting up with weight toward my toes, especially with irons.  For as long as I have done this swing, I’ve not been able to consistently keep my weight properly balanced between heels and toes.  If I think about it, then sure, I can do it.  But like so many things in a swing, when I stop thinking about it, my body goes its own way.

 

Chandler Rusk said in one of his videos that it helps to feel that the weight is more on the heels.  I think so too.

 

 

[azgreg]

I've been looking at teh Kirk Junge stuff. Not ready to make the switch yet though.

 

[SEP1006]

 Up until last year I had been doing the single plain BDC swing for about 10 years. Mid last year I started with the Graves swing. Mainly because there is a lot more instruction on the web to follow and look at when things go awry. I also use the Jumbomax Ultralight XL grips on ALL my clubs.

 

One thing I do that is a little different, is that I keep about 60% (think stack / tilt) of my weight on me lead leg throughout the back swing. Works better for me as I have a tendency to sway and this keeps me more stable.

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

Today Chandler posted one of his lesson replies, advising the person to use more knee bend.  Kirk likes more knee bend too.

Graves likes only the slightest bend, like Moe. 

 

I've tried both.  Several times. The Moe version feels like it puts me "over" the ball in a good way.  Like there is nowhere to swing except back to the ball.  I might have a different story next month.  🙃

[ChaosTheory]

1 minute ago, SEP1006 said:

I keep about 60% (think stack / tilt) of my weight on me lead leg throughout the back swing.

 

I like that.  I don't do it, but I have dabbled with it and I think it could be a very good thing.  Especially for getting through the ball.

[SEP1006]

16 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

 

I like that.  I don't do it, but I have dabbled with it and I think it could be a very good thing.  Especially for getting through the ball.

 

 

Yeh it definitely works better for me.

 

I know Graves wants you to feel the weight on the inside of the trail foot on the backswing. Then on the down swing stay centered over the lead knee through impact. Since the majority of my weight is already there I can still do this to some point.

 

 

 

[Nels55]

6 minutes ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Yeh it definitely works better for me.

 

I know Graves wants you to feel the weight on the inside of the trail foot on the backswing. Then on the down swing stay centered over the lead knee through impact. Since the majority of my weight is already there I can still do this to some point.

 

 

 

Some you might want to try is to do the initial shift to trail foot as you start the takeaway and then shift back to your lead foot immediately after the initial shift.  You might pick up some serious clubhead speed doing that...

[SEP1006]

10 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Some you might want to try is to do the initial shift to trail foot as you start the takeaway

 

In theory this sounds good. But doing it the way I do keeps me from swaying. A bad habit of mine that I just can't permanently break for some reason.

Edited February 13 by SEP1006

[nlk10010]

Yea, even though I flit from swing method to swing method I'm always drawn back to the SP, specifically the Todd Graves version. I just feel, as posted above, there is a LOT of instruction available on YT, and the swing makes sense to me. It is the most specific and "tightly-controlled" (as Graves teaches it) method I have found and being someone who likes to work things out for themselves it is very appealing. I really like the emphasis on stopping (in the backswing and down swing) and bracing with the legs, I've found the actual moves are very small. In particular, I used to sway off the ball a lot in the back swing and have a tendency to hit fat; I work now on bracing against my trail leg going back and against my lead leg going forward, keeping the moves very slight. It allows me to keep my head pretty centered. I  video  myself repeatedly and seem to be converging to what I think the swing should look like (face-on). Who cares where the ball goes.  

 

 

[bladehunter]

23 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

Today Chandler posted one of his lesson replies, advising the person to use more knee bend.  Kirk likes more knee bend too.

Graves likes only the slightest bend, like Moe. 

 

I've tried both.  Several times. The Moe version feels like it puts me "over" the ball in a good way.  Like there is nowhere to swing except back to the ball.  I might have a different story next month.  🙃

My opinion. Run from anyone promoting a lot of knee flex.  

[GolfTurkey]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

My opinion. Run from anyone promoting a lot of knee flex.  

 

Ironically that requires a lot of knee flex

[E2EGOLFER53]

I have played Single Axis golf since 1998 and I don’t think I could ever go back to Conventional Golf due to spine problems.  I would not even be able to play golf due to a fused lower back and a completely fused neck from T1 to C3 vertebra.  I have to swing with as little twisting as I can to prevent more injury to my spine.

 

E2E Golfer

[ChaosTheory]

Chandler Rusk puts out one or more very short videos a day.  Usually they are specifically addressed at a particular student, but sometimes they are just general.   In this one he says you should probably play a draw or fade, not a straight shot.  I know many people say that, including some of the instructors here on GolfWRX.  I have never bought into the idea but I'm about to give it a try with my irons at least.  Because, I'm unsatisfied with the face control I've been experiencing over the years.  Too many errant shots with irons.

 

For me, it's not about sanity or confusion, as Monte Scheinblum suggests.  It's simply about trying to cultivate smaller dispersion through a reduction in variability of face to path angle.   I'll add that I don't buy the line, "taking away one side of the course".  Supposedly, pro stats show that people who play fades or draws miss both ways just like straight hitters.  Anyway, let's not debate that aspect. 

 

SA golf is generally not known for working the ball.  But it is certainly can be done.   I wonder if it is a way to tighten up the face to path angle.

 

 

Edited February 17 by ChaosTheory

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

Chandler Rusk puts out one or more very short videos a day.  Usually they are specifically addressed at a particular student, but sometimes they are just general.   In this one he says you should probably play a draw or fade, not a straight shot.  I know many people say that, including some of the instructors here on GolfWRX.  I have never bought into the idea but I'm about to give it a try with my irons at least.  Because, I'm unsatisfied with the face control I've been experiencing over the years.  Too many errant shots with irons.

 

For me, it's not about sanity or confusion, as Monte Scheinblum suggests.  It's simply about trying to cultivate smaller dispersion through a reduction in variability of face to path angle.   I'll add that I don't buy the line, "taking away one side of the course".  Supposedly, pro stats show that people who play fades or draws miss both ways just like straight hitters.  Anyway, let's not debate that aspect. 

 

SA golf is generally not known for working the ball.  But it is certainly can be done.   I wonder if it is a way to tighten up the face to path angle.

 

 

Moe had no problem hitting a straight ball as he was capable of producing zero spin axis.  He also hit it hi, low and draw or fade with no problem.  LOL he also hit straight shots with a cross wind.  So, if you are going to swing like Moe I guess the straight ball is in order.  Otherwise it comes down to what works best for you!

[ChaosTheory]

I only say I swing like Moe to help other golfers picture what I try to do.   A better way to put it is that my swing is inspired by Moe's swing.  I try to do some things that Moe did.  Results may vary.

 

I may just be going through a spell of bad form, or the dormant turf is getting to me.  Which does happen.  But I'm beginning to see what @MonteScheinblum said the other day about how playing a straight ball is harder on the golf brain.  My "break glass in case of emergency" swing is a slightly open stance, and hold off the release.  In that case my brain knows I have to hold it off.  When I stand closed, with a little extra weight on lead foot, my brain knows I better not hold off.  Instead I need to let it go.

 

But on a straight shot, I'm not holding it off, but I can't let it go, either.  I'm just trying to be passive, and I think it leads to more variability in the hands at release.  For years I have noticed that either open stance or closed seemed more natural than square, but I didn't associate the "problem" with how I might be processing the release intention.  Now I'm desperate enough that I'm going to try playing a draw with my irons.    I "can" do it, I've just never worked on it long enough to feel confident about doing it.

 

One very weird thing, opposite of conventional thinking, is that when I open up and try to block it, the swing is shallower than normal.  And I'm shallow to begin with.  It feels like a much longer flat spot but there is no margin for low point errors.  And when I close my stance and try to draw the ball, I'm actually steeper than my normal.  Which is probably good for me.  I'm sure my brain is behind some of these adjustments.  Anyway, that's why I'm going to try to play a draw.

 

[Bob M]

For the past couple of weeks, I've been doing Kirk Junge's setup and move through the impact area drills using a really short swing (mostly indoors without a ball). Additionally, I have done some chipping with an AlmostGOLF ball using the setup 4 impact method. 

 

I have booked some Trackman time for tomorrow at my local Golf Galaxy for range work to check my progress.  

[SEP1006]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:27 PM, Nels55 said:

Moe had no problem hitting a straight ball as he was capable of producing zero spin axis.  He also hit it hi, low and draw or fade with no problem.  LOL he also hit straight shots with a cross wind.  So, if you are going to swing like Moe I guess the straight ball is in order.  Otherwise it comes down to what works best for you!

 

 

Moe also hit hundreds of balls a day everyday.

 

 

[SwingBlues]

17 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Moe also hit hundreds of balls a day everyday.

 

 

If we did that, will the"Moe" in us come out?

😂

 

Seriously, Moe digged it from the dirt as Hogan says. His genius is figuring out the spacing problem & simplifying the basic golf swing for us. Long live Moe 🙏

[Bob M]

I signed up for Kirk Junge's Setup4Impact online program today, on a monthly basis. I've been using the free content on his YT channel, however the paid content on his Member's site goes into much greater detail on each step of the swing. As soon as I get a tripod, I'll start filming my swings to send for input. 

[Binson]

When I first started playing golf, it got me to a state of sufficiency drastically quicker than my peers.

 

I wouldn't say I necessarily have an SPS nowadays when you look at it, but I do still feel like I have some of those principles at setup - especially with Driver.  I would say I actually have multiple swings depending on the shot, because different delivery dynamics are required throughout the bag each of them have a different corresponding set of feels.

 

My ball flight is really straight on all clubs except Driver (where I prefer a little cut), although my swing speed is pretty average.  I don't fault the SPS for that, it's probably more likely since I never played any sort of "club" or rotational sport growing up.  

 

Ultimately, I don't believe anymore that with the SPS, you are actually "setting up like how you impact".  I've seen every Moe video out there multiple times, and I do find them inspiring. I especially like the tempo he has.  The Bryson swing is actually quite different than Moe's, despite there being some influence to begin with.  There are elements you can take and apply (like the end ranges of motion), but you have to make it work for you and your body rather than try to completely mimic someone else.  

 

I've found club and ball data to be much more precise in communicating delivery and identifying areas of improvement than video alone.  How you get to ideal delivery numbers doesn't have to fit one swing model.  There are tons of ways to do it (including equipment) and the most frustrating type of lessons for me are basically teachers who speak in platitudes and try to get you into certain body positions without an ability to quantify or articulate how that will impact your delivery dynamics and lead to better scores.    

 

Just do this drill, because I told you so.  It's what Rory does, or Moe does, or whomever their chosen model is.  It feels terrible? Well, just drill it.  After drilling it for weeks and it still feeling terrible, you know you're pouring your money down the drain and watching your enthusiasm for golf go along with it.  I've been down that path with multiple SPS online coaches and it's fine when you're just getting started. But, it just doesn't work for me past a certain point. 

 

It's been frustrating that none of the SPS coaches will show any trackman or quad data on their dynamic loft, aoa, face to path, etc throughout the bag even as a rough guideline of what we can expect to deliver with the SPS swing they're promoting.  Maybe it'll be different if you can get in-person coaching.

 

That said, it's certainly worth the experiment - especially if you are at a low point in your golf.  

[ChaosTheory]

I discovered something but still have to put it to the test of time.

 

My favorite clubs are driver and woods.  Then the hybrids.  Irons are not good.  This has been true for me for years, with the exception of occasional stretches of good iron play.  I’ve been fighting them forever.

 

The wear spots on the fairways and hybrids are way smaller than on the irons.  That always puzzled me.  Much longer clubs, how am I hitting them in the middle, but hitting irons all over the face?

 

And the shot results follow the same pattern.  My dispersion is lousy with short irons.  Plus fat and thin.

 

I’ve discovered that I extend my arms more fully with the woods.  Not maximum, which would have the shoulders rolling forward.  Just short of that.  I call it full, natural extension.  But with irons my habit has been to keep the upper arms closer to my chest.  Less than full, natural extension.  
 

So there is a lot of free play or slack in my irons setup.  Say it’s an inch. Which I have to somehow regulate.  No wonder I’m hitting fat and thin.  
 

I never have liked fully extending the arms, especially with irons.  But over time I got there with woods, and it works.  I need to get there with the irons.   This is of course more like Moe.  I was always attracted to the instructors who kept the upper arms closer the the chest.  Scott Hazledine IMA, and I’d say Kirk Junge too.  But I think I need to be more Moe.

 

Anyone else been through this?  Anyway, just a data point from one user.

Edited March 7 by ChaosTheory

[badboggs]

I'm curious about the equipment elements of this concept.  Does Bryson play with a driver and fairway woods that are really upright?  I know his irons are like 10 degrees more upright than standard.  

 

I experimented with something similar to this years ago and really liked the consistency.  However I could tell my equipment no longer fit for the move.  At the time I didn't have the club building knowledge that I do now.  Has anyone gone down a path of modifying or acquiring equipment to support these concepts?

[TonyRo]

I came here to ask the same question, actually. 😁

[ChaosTheory]

The Bryson method requires upright lie angles.  You can always try it first with your normal clubs.

 

The Moe method, if you reach out much, can actually need slightly flat lies.  I use it but my best fit is 1 or 2 degrees upright.  I don’t reach out as far as Todd Graves recommends.  The Moe inspired methods are pretty easy to sample without changing your clubs.  
 

If you get more into it, the first thing you’ll need and want are larger grips.  Usually midsize or oversized/jumbo, depending on your hand size.