Pressure shift to lead side, conscious move?

[ZGriswold83]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Sorry, I was definitely laughing with you, not at you. Low cap golfers aren’t immune to the slumps, frustrating trials, and errors you’re describing.

 

Golf at any level is a process and struggle sometimes. Just when you think you have it, it slips through your fingers like a handful of sand.

It's good, ramblings of a perpetually frustrated golfer taken out on random internet person. I've just been trying for long time and haven't seen any results. I used to break 80 pretty regularly, then I got older and not as flexible and found out I needed to actually rotate instead of relying on my arms and being able to have perfect timing. I live in an area where I can't play over the winter, so I have been working every day inside as much as I can. I thought maybe I'd have a bit better ball striking after all that time and effort, but it didn't feel like I touched the center of the face swinging today.

[MonteScheinblum]

You 

6 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

@AFcelica
@MonteScheinblum

Couple of swings, honestly felt awful this morning.

 

 

First off, change your hitting station setup.  You’re way too close to the ball and your heels are hanging off the end.  This in and of itself is making a lot of things harder 

[ZGriswold83]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You 

First off, change your hitting station setup.  You’re way too close to the ball and your heels are hanging off the end.  This in and of itself is making a lot of things harder 

First time I have been able to use it, threw something together really quick... I definitely am going to invest in a 2nd mat to stand on.

[PracticeSwinger]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:58 PM, Valtiel said:

This is why you keep getting criticism....this is irresponsibly *damaging* to tell most golfers in ways that you either don't care or are ignorant to. It is objectively backwards in such a way that suggests you don't know what it is you're looking at and can not describe correctly. In the video you posted his right leg is fairly weightlessly being pulled towards the target by the forces created by the left side, *learned* forces that absolutely do not come automatically to most, especially to a right handed/right side dominant player.

I'm going to do now what you failed to do when asked previously which is to back this up with data using pressure mat data with a variety of different swing types thanks to some public YouTube content. If you want to dispute my interpretations of this data then please do, or at least *engage* in the topic beyond just lobbing a couple sentences then disappearing when anyone confronts you. Should you chose to disappear again I am going to link this post in response to any of your repeated attempts at dangerously misrepresenting how fundamentals of the golf swing work, especially ones that stand to harm the average player looking to improve.



Luke List first; big hitter with a wide base and very balanced use of forces in the downswing.

- Frames 1 to 2 shows a very typical balanced address position and a quick increase of pressure to 75% on the trail leg by P2.
- Frames 2 to 3 shows a typical pattern of many "Jason Day" style big hitters in that pressure spikes to mid/upper 80% right before the backswing completes, a spike that sets up...
- Frames 3 to 4 shows the immediate shift off that loaded trail leg, and this is where pressure mats are very handy because this isn't a "push" as you might expect, because that would register as a sharp spike in pressure on the rear foot. Instead the slight increase from 75% to 85% during P3.5 to P4 sets up the ability to "fall" towards the front side with a slight lateral bump. It's a controlled increase to allow for momentum to start the other way.
- Frames 4-6 down through impact show a consistent 80-85% pressure on the front side which is used to create rotation/torque and some vertical force while the rear leg is simply along for the ride. Nothing is "coming through like a freight train" at all, this is like being dragged in a little red wagon towards the target.



Justin Thomas next; easily the opposite side of the spectrum from List with probably the most "active" right side on the tour off the tee.

- Frames 1 to 2 again show a balanced starting point but with less lateral pressure shift. Face on videos show that Thomas does stay quite centered in this initial turn.
- Frames 2 to 3 are more of the same, even slightly decreasing pressure on the back leg, although not significantly.
- Frames 3 to 4 show a similar slightly late spike on the trail leg to setup the shift in pressure in transition, although much less than List only peaking at 70%. The face on video shows this as well again as a slightly bump before transition.
- Frames 4 to 5 are wild in that he shifts so much pressure into his front side so quickly that he goes from 70/30 to 20/80 in a blink. This sets up the tremendous ground force usage he is known for.
- Frames 5 to 6 are the further build up of those forces...
- Frames 6 to 7 then show the very interesting effect of big vertical ground force, that is the pinging of weight back on to the rear foot. This is NOT a use of the right leg for any kind of power, nor is it some conscious move to reverse his pressure shift to start using the rear leg....its simply the Newton's 3rd Law causing a momentary spike in pressure on the back foot as the front foot leaps off the ground. Obviously he can't actually be using that right foot for much because he's up on this tippy toe, this is all still entirely left side driven forces with the right side just catching the blowback.



Adam Scott next. If Thomas is the king of vertical then Scott if the king of lateral.

- Frames 1-2 show a perfect 50/50 address position and a very quick shift to 85/15 by P2.
- Frames 2-3 show the maximum pressure of 90/10 being reached by left arm parallel.
- Frames 3-5 show the "falling" type of re-centering move @iacas spoke of earlier as the peak of 90/10 allows for a smooth decrease towards 60/40 in transition.
- Frames 6-7 show the continued increase in lead side pressure to 10/90 which continues through impact.

I have more of these but they'd only be degrees of difference between these three torque, vertical, and lateral based swings. The main takeaway is that your idea of "lead side just knows what to do and the trail side barrels through like a freight train" is categorically false and extremely misleading, especially to the average player that struggles with knowing how and what to do with the lead side, something we can see is VERY active in all of these players. At the pro level the trail side is either passively being dragged through impact by the pressure and rotation of the front side, or its catching the rebound of vertical forces, again all being created by the front side. Rory's comment in your video about "hitting it with his trail side" is a classic example of this that Jon Rahm explains very well and it is not to be taken as confirmation of a busted swing theory.

Don’t want to hijack this thread but need to ask your take @Valtiel on this awesome post (once again!)… I had seen those three pressure traces and wanted to ask about Adam Scott; he’s still on his trail side (60ish %) in the 6th frame you posted and is into his downswing. We know that he’ll get there soon enough (see next frame) but is still getting to his lead side later than List and JT swings shown.
 

In your opinion is that an effect of; an iron swing where one doesn’t need to trigger GRFs absolute values as much, him being more of a glider (lateral vs torque, vertical), just the fact that we know intent has to precede motion and/or a combo of these?

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Don’t want to hijack this thread but need to ask your take @Valtiel on this awesome post (once again!)… I had seen those three pressure traces and wanted to ask about Adam Scott; he’s still on his trail side (60ish %) in the 6th frame you posted and is into his downswing. We know that he’ll get there soon enough (see next frame) but is still getting to his lead side later than List and JT swings shown.
 

In your opinion is that an effect of; an iron swing where one doesn’t need to trigger GRFs absolute values as much, him being more of a glider (lateral vs torque, vertical), just the fact that we know intent has to precede motion and/or a combo of these?

No problem, hopefully this is still useful to @ZGriswold83, or at least interesting. 😅

That's a good question, and the key is the sequence and the building of momentum. There is a world of difference between peaking at 90/10 by P3 and then decreasing to 60/40 from P3 to P4 and in transition vs. staying more centered and only peaking at say 60/40 and then still being 60/40 at the top of the swing. The former is a longer windup that builds lateral momentum sequenced to start accelerating a little earlier (P3 to P4) vs. the spiking later in the backswing and then aggressively shifting in transition to create more quick and violent forces. This is why everyone drools over Adam's swing and why anyone that has had back or knee problems winces at JT's violent leeps at the ball. As an aside, this matches up with how their hands and arms work:



Adam has noticeably more deviation/load in his wrists and a wider arc whereas JT has both less overall *and* throws away those angles more quickly in the downswing. JT dumps lag early and narrows his hand/arm path to then be flung by his aggressive body rotation whereas Adam gets his speed more holistically; a bit more hand speed and less body speed when compared to JT. Adam is Nolan Ryan whereas JT is Tim Lincecum. This is why despite the fact that Adam's swing is noticeably smoother and more balanced, he has more clubhead speed off the tee. He has stayed between 118-121mph since 2012 whereas JT has stayed between 116-117mph. 

Coming back to the lateral shifting...Adam's bigger lateral shifts with their larger swings in momentum are matched up with more rotation (hip and shoulder), more wrist load/speed, and a later release vs. JT who stays more centered with less overall rotation and a bigger emphasis on using the ground via the body. This is why Adam can be at 60/40 to start the downswing in the same place that JT is 20/80 and not even be remotely stuck or late, because he is smoothly creating momentum from a wider shift sequenced to peak in time with his hands in the downswing. 

Edited March 4 by Valtiel

[baudi]

On 3/3/2024 at 12:58 AM, Valtiel said:

- Frames 6 to 7 then show the very interesting effect of big vertical ground force, that is the pinging of weight back on to the rear foot. This is NOT a use of the right leg for any kind of power, nor is it some conscious move to reverse his pressure shift to start using the rear leg....its simply the Newton's 3rd Law causing a momentary spike in pressure on the back foot as the front foot leaps off the ground. Obviously he can't actually be using that right foot for much because he's up on this tippy toe, this is all still entirely left side driven forces with the right side just catching the blowback.

Thanks for uploading your post.  Overall I agree with your conclusion of three different types of  footwork. I appreciate your perspective but I see things differently which I kindly would like to share.

 

In the frame just prior to delivery the depth of the lead hip and the lead foot are still on the ground. 

So from my perspective, Scott is also the protagonist of rotary forces. I would like to see newer data on more modern equipment eg. the 3D dual force plates by Smart2Move.

 

Edited March 4 by baudi

[ZGriswold83]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

No problem, hopefully this is still useful to @ZGriswold83, or at least interesting. 😅

That's a good question, and the key is the sequence and the building of momentum. There is a world of difference between peaking at 90/10 by P3 and then decreasing to 60/40 from P3 to P4 and in transition vs. staying more centered and only peaking at say 60/40 and then still being 60/40 at the top of the swing. The former is a longer windup that builds lateral momentum sequenced to start accelerating a little earlier (P3 to P4) vs. the spiking later in the backswing and then aggressively shifting in transition to create more quick and violent forces. This is why everyone drools over Adam's swing and why anyone that has had back or knee problems winces at JT's violent leeps at the ball. As an aside, this matches up with how their hands and arms work:



Adam has noticeably more deviation/load in his wrists and a wider arc whereas JT has both less overall *and* throws away those angles more quickly in the downswing. JT dumps lag early and narrows his hand/arm path to then be flung by his aggressive body rotation whereas Adam gets his speed more holistically; a bit more hand speed and less body speed when compared to JT. Adam is Nolan Ryan whereas JT is Tim Lincecum. This is why despite the fact that Adam's swing is noticeably smoother and more balanced, he has more clubhead speed off the tee. He has stayed between 118-121mph since 2012 whereas JT has stayed between 116-117mph. 

Coming back to the lateral shifting...Adam's bigger lateral shifts with their larger swings in momentum are matched up with more rotation (hip and shoulder), more wrist load/speed, and a later release vs. JT who stays more centered with less overall rotation and a bigger emphasis on using the ground via the body. This is why Adam can be at 60/40 to start the downswing in the same place that JT is 20/80 and not even be remotely stuck or late, because he is smoothly creating momentum from a wider shift sequenced to peak in time with his hands in the downswing. 

Any discussion is good. You never know what will turn on the lightbulb.

[jonsnow]

19 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

@GungHoGolf

This wasn't really a joke. It's always funny for low handicap golfers who 'get it', I have tried every means necessary and still can't figure it out. I used to be good, I used to enjoy golf. Now I'm closer than ever to actually just hanging it up, one frustrating trial and error after another.

Brother, I know exactly how you feel. Ever since I had several mini strokes about a year ago, it's as if my body has forgotten how to move. I have no desire to go play the way I'm swinging & hitting the ball but I go to the range most Saturdays & hit balls thinking I will eventually begin to get some of the sense of a swing back. I was a low single digit handicap from about 15 to about age 60, peaking at .9 when I was in my early 40s. Played in several US Amateur qualifiers, never threatened to qualify (usually shot my 82-83) but never got "the letter." Where I am now is no fun & I have no idea if it can be improved or if what I've got now is what I'm going to have. The only fun I get out of golf now is hanging around here & interacting with this community...

[me05501]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:48 PM, MBAndrews21 said:

The amount of arguing about golf technique never ceases to amaze me

 

A lot of the time it seems to come down to the difference between CORRECT swings and EFFECTIVE swings. 

 

All correct swings are effective but not all effective swings are correct. 

 

Raphael Nadal is an incredible athlete. Apparently he plays to scratch. I saw a video of his swing yesterday and it looked very odd and obviously very influenced by what he does to generate power and accuracy with a tennis racket. 

Effective? Apparently. Correct? It doesn't look like a swing anyone would teach to a new student. 

Obviously the professional instructors here have tons experience helping players of all levels improve within their own abilities. That's their main job: helping players work their way from incorrect/ineffective motor patterns to more correct/more effective ones. They have to have a deep understanding of swing theory but they don't try to upload 100% of that into every student's overloaded brain. 

 

The way I see it, this is a relatively safe space where they can get more theoretical and have discussions that would put a student's head in a spin cycle. 

 

It's always interesting. 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

7 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

A lot of the time it seems to come down to the difference between CORRECT swings and EFFECTIVE swings. 

 

All correct swings are effective but not all effective swings are correct. 

 

Raphael Nadal is an incredible athlete. Apparently he plays to scratch. I saw a video of his swing yesterday and it looked very odd and obviously very influenced by what he does to generate power and accuracy with a tennis racket. 

Effective? Apparently. Correct? It doesn't look like a swing anyone would teach to a new student. 

Obviously the professional instructors here have tons experience helping players of all levels improve within their own abilities. That's their main job: helping players work their way from incorrect/ineffective motor patterns to more correct/more effective ones. They have to have a deep understanding of swing theory but they don't try to upload 100% of that into every student's overloaded brain. 

 

The way I see it, this is a relatively safe space where they can get more theoretical and have discussions that would put a student's head in a spin cycle. 

 

It's always interesting. 

 

 

Teaching someone with an ineffective swing is not hard.  Lots of low hanging fruit. 

 

Someone in the category you call effective but incorrect.  When they ask you to make them better you have to be careful you don’t screw it up.   Famous examples of this are Como with Day and Harmon with Fowler. 
 

Someone with an effective and correct swing is really easy to teach.  You look and measure the way they do it when they are hitting it the way they want.  When they aren’t, you find what’s different. 

[jonsnow]

Sorry for the post earlier. Didn't mean to threadjack & make it about my issues. My dad used to tell me "Don't tell other people your problems. Half don't care & the other half are glad you've got them." I should have remembered that. But sometimes I get so frustrated I have to vent  & whine & my wife is tired of hearing it...

[ZGriswold83]

14 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Teaching someone with an ineffective swing is not hard.  Lots of low hanging fruit. 

 

Someone in the category you call effective but incorrect.  When they ask you to make them better you have to be careful you don’t screw it up.   Famous examples of this are Como with Day and Harmon with Fowler. 
 

Someone with an effective and correct swing is really easy to teach.  You look and measure the way they do it when they are hitting it the way they want.  When they aren’t, you find what’s different. 

Think this is what got me to the point I'm at right now. I went to a local pro about 3 years ago because I was pushing the ball and couldn't figure out what was going on. He tells me that I need a complete new swing after I had played pretty well with my current swing for most of my golfing days. Looking back, I do agree that I needed to get my lower body more involved in my swing but he was forcing me to hit a stock draw after being a fade player forever. Because of some issues with the course he taught at, I stopped going for lessons there. Ever since, I have been tumbling down the rabbit hole trying to piece it together myself. Probably not the right way to go about it, but it's what I had to work with.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

Think this is what got me to the point I'm at right now. I went to a local pro about 3 years ago because I was pushing the ball and couldn't figure out what was going on. He tells me that I need a complete new swing after I had played pretty well with my current swing for most of my golfing days. Looking back, I do agree that I needed to get my lower body more involved in my swing but he was forcing me to hit a stock draw after being a fade player forever. Because of some issues with the course he taught at, I stopped going for lessons there. Ever since, I have been tumbling down the rabbit hole trying to piece it together myself. Probably not the right way to go about it, but it's what I had to work with.

The need to rebuild a swing is a bad concept, IMO.  That’s someone who wants the swing to work one way.  Frank Lickliter after winning almost 20 million playing golf, was told to switch from a fade to a draw so he could hit it farther and he was off the tour 3 years later.

 

There should always be a why for change.

 

e.g. Bad low point, shift better.

 

I have an elite junior who has a conditional offer to Stanford if he gets passed admissions.  Before me the pro at his club said to his dad when he was a freshman (now junior), “We need break this down and start all over again.”

 

He contacted me in a panic with a swing for me to look at.  He was shifting late by shoving his right hip toward the target.  Early right tilt, two way miss.

 

He was 6-3 and now 6-5 and was league player of the year as a freshman in basketball.

 

I explained staying in left tilt longer, 6 weeks later he added the league golf title to his basketball award.

 

Since then, all we work on is shot making, as he wants to hit PW 160.

…and applicable to all of us….during basketball season that just ended, he doesn’t play golf much.  Guess what bad habit returned?

 

Tiger said it years ago.  The bad habits you develop when you learn the game are with you forever and will return if you don’t constantly monitor them.  I know better and can do it right but when I take time off, getting vertical in transition with lead wrist extension is there for me to conquer yet again.

 

He is going into right tilt early after basketball seasons and again his path got to 8 in to out with a big sweeping draw even on wedges.  Working on it and back down to 4/5.  Trying to get back down to 2/3 where he was in the summer 

 

Edited March 5 by MonteScheinblum

[ZGriswold83]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

He was shifting late by shoving his right hip toward the target.  Early right tilt, two way miss.

 

I explained staying in left tilt longer.

Sounds like my miss right now and I know that I have issues with my body and arms not being in sync.

 

Staying in left tilt longer makes way more sense to me than 'keep your back to the target as long as possible' or 'stay closed longer' ala Justin Rose. Hopefully I'm applying the left tilt analogy to similar concepts.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, ZGriswold83 said:

Sounds like my miss right now and I know that I have issues with my body and arms not being in sync.

 

Staying in left tilt longer makes way more sense to me than 'keep your back to the target as long as possible' or 'stay closed longer' ala Justin Rose. Hopefully I'm applying the left tilt analogy to similar concepts.

Keeping your back to the target-Nicklaus

Stay closed longer-Rose

Stay in left tilt longer-What’s actually happening

 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

I'm the complete opposite. If I consciously try to shift pressure, I hit it high on the face and my low point moves back. If I 'feel' like I say on the right side a bit longer, I hit it clean and the divot moves in front. Brad Hughes gave me a lesson to feel like I'm pushing down the right leg in transition to keep the shoulders from opening too fast. Good stuff.

[ZGriswold83]

53 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I'm the complete opposite. If I consciously try to shift pressure, I hit it high on the face and my low point moves back. If I 'feel' like I say on the right side a bit longer, I hit it clean and the divot moves in front. Brad Hughes gave me a lesson to feel like I'm pushing down the right leg in transition to keep the shoulders from opening too fast. Good stuff.

You introduced me to Brad Hughes a while back. The video I linked in the original post has been the closest thing that made sense. I feel like I push into my right heel until almost shaft parallel on my downswing. It actually stops my right hip from shooting towards the ball and pushes my left hip backwards during transition, but everything I read/see/am told is that is 'too late' to get pressure on my left foot... Now, that said, it's how I FEEL, I have no idea what is actually happening. I have some insoles that show pressure changes, but they have been difficult to work with, so I haven't invested much time in them.

[Chunkitgood]

This is what I have concluded in answer to the OP’s question:

 

If you do your backswing properly, the shift will not only be not conscious, it will be well nigh irresistible.  In general terms think of it as while standing up with your feet shoulder width apart, lifting your left foot off the ground.  You will fall left until you put your foot back down.  The golf swing is a little different in that instead of just lifting your left foot, what you actually do is shift your right hip to the right which leaves the center of your mass to the left of the point on the ground at which is is being supported, just as if you had lifted your left foot (and which also tilts your right hip up and left shoulder down), then turn around your sacrum, which moves mass towards the target, then extend your torso (which also moves mass towards the target).

 

This all has to be done powerfully, which is something that has been destroyed in a lot of people by over coaching when they are told not to turn too early or not to move the right hip too much away from the target.

 

People with problems shifting would be better off being told to thrust their right hip to the right and tilt their left shoulder pretty much as much and as fast as they can without moving their head, then immediately (for all practical purposes simultaneously) turning their right hip back and towards the target as fast as the they can.  They wouldn’t be able to stop themselves from moving towards their target and using their left foot and leg to keep themselves from falling.

 

 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Tiger said it years ago.  The bad habits you develop when you learn the game are with you forever and will return if you don’t constantly monitor them.  

I never knew that came from Tiger but that's really validating because slowly over time that become my main check-in with myself, specifically my stupid across the line left wrist cupping move. No matter how well i'm playing or what i'm working on, I *have* to keep a conscious awareness of my left wrist structure otherwise it cups fractionally in transition and the clubhead moves a little to the right in the crucial time when it needs to move left and I feel stuck. Left thumb injuries as a junior only exacerbated this I think. Everything else can go right out the window and I can still hit a shot if I keep an eye on that. Learning what your bad habits are is actually empowering because ironically you can literally *always* count on them in a "if I always know what my enemy is planning then I can be prepared" kind of way. 😅

Edited March 5 by Valtiel

[MonteScheinblum]

31 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

I never knew that came from Tiger but that's really validating because slowly over time that become my main check-in with myself, specifically my stupid across the line left wrist cupping move. No matter how well i'm playing or what i'm working on, I *have* to keep a conscious awareness of my left wrist structure otherwise it cups fractionally in transition and the clubhead moves a little to the right in the crucial time when it needs to move left and I feel stuck. Left thumb injuries as a junior only exacerbated this I think. Everything else can go right out the window and I can still hit a shot if I keep an eye on that. Learning what your bad habits are is actually empowering because ironically you can literally *always* count on them in a "if I always know what my enemy is planning then I can be prepared" kind of way. 😅

💯 

[ZGriswold83]

41 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

This is what I have concluded in answer to the OP’s question:

 

If you do your backswing properly, the shift will not only be not conscious, it will be well nigh irresistible.  In general terms think of it as while standing up with your feet shoulder width apart, lifting your left foot off the ground.  You will fall left until you put your foot back down.  The golf swing is a little different in that instead of just lifting your left foot, what you actually do is shift your right hip to the right which leaves the center of your mass to the left of the point on the ground at which is is being supported, just as if you had lifted your left foot (and which also tilts your right hip up and left shoulder down), then turn around your sacrum, which moves mass towards the target, then extend your torso (which also moves mass towards the target).

 

This all has to be done powerfully, which is something that has been destroyed in a lot of people by over coaching when they are told not to turn too early or not to move the right hip too much away from the target.

 

People with problems shifting would be better off being told to thrust their right hip to the right and tilt their left shoulder pretty much as much and as fast as they can without moving their head, then immediately (for all practical purposes simultaneously) turning their right hip back and towards the target as fast as the they can.  They wouldn’t be able to stop themselves from moving towards their target and using their left foot and leg to keep themselves from falling.

 

 

That's my issue, I just can't find something that makes sense and is reliable to get my body in a position where I need to brace myself on my lead side instead of falling sideways. It could just be a misunderstanding of terms used. Hip to me is the joint where the femur and pelvis meet, I'm sure that's not what everyone is thinking about when using the term hip... I'm not saying the term 'hip' is my confusion point, just trying to make the point that my issue may be my interpretation of terms.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The need to rebuild a swing is a bad concept, IMO.

 

I hate the idea of "rebuilding." It feels like what someone who has one way to swing and/or who wants to sell you a 20-lesson package tells a golfer.

[tthomasgolfer605]

6 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

You introduced me to Brad Hughes a while back. The video I linked in the original post has been the closest thing that made sense. I feel like I push into my right heel until almost shaft parallel on my downswing. It actually stops my right hip from shooting towards the ball and pushes my left hip backwards during transition, but everything I read/see/am told is that is 'too late' to get pressure on my left foot... Now, that said, it's how I FEEL, I have no idea what is actually happening. I have some insoles that show pressure changes, but they have been difficult to work with, so I haven't invested much time in them.

I just noticed you posted a vid of Brad Hughes. You have two choices. Stick with what he's saying or go with the other stuff being said on this thread. I find it laughable that people don't think he's right. 

[ZGriswold83]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I hate the idea of "rebuilding." It feels like what someone who has one way to swing and/or who wants to sell you a 20-lesson package tells a golfer.

The whole lesson was me trying to hit balls with an impact bag inside the ball so I wouldn't come over the top. This was after he stuck an old shaft into the ground and had me swing outside the shaft on my way back and inside the shaft on my way down. At one point I hit the shaft, broke it and bent my 7 iron.

[Jeselnik]

18 hours ago, ZGriswold83 said:

That's my issue, I just can't find something that makes sense and is reliable to get my body in a position where I need to brace myself on my lead side instead of falling sideways. It could just be a misunderstanding of terms used. Hip to me is the joint where the femur and pelvis meet, I'm sure that's not what everyone is thinking about when using the term hip... I'm not saying the term 'hip' is my confusion point, just trying to make the point that my issue may be my interpretation of terms.

< insert random advice here>
Replant left foot and swing over braced right leg.

< insert random advice here>
 

—. OR —

 

Proceed rationally and get some help.  You can’t afford them, it’s just an example.  Good luck, do the work and lose the carpet.

 

 

 

JNIK

 

[ZGriswold83]

1 hour ago, Jeselnik said:

< insert random advice here>
Replant left foot and swing over braced right leg.

< insert random advice here>
 

—. OR —

 

Proceed rationally and get some help.  You can’t afford them, it’s just an example.  Good luck, do the work and lose the carpet.

 

 

 

JNIK

 

Got an actual mat being delivered today

[Zitlow]

This is an excerpt from a book Mike Dunaway wrote "Hit it Hard" about the transition that might be of interest to some people.

 

Once the motion is trained the swing is done subconsciously by feel, proprioception. He had one swing thought and that was to start the swing. It's like once you're in motion you just go along for the ride. 

 

 

[johnrobison]

Who here ever said anything about consciously correcting anything in the downswing?

 

What's your point? Other than to agree that the motion needs to be trained?

Edited March 6 by johnrobison

[Nels55]

13 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Who here ever said anything about consciously correct anything in the downswing?

 

What's your point? Other than to agree that the motion needs to be trained?

Well, I can say that with those posts I never can quite figure out what the point is.  Possibly just a bit of truculence.  

 

Random thoughts:

The consciously correcting part of golf is interesting.  I remember Tiger talking about having to save shots with his hands because his swing mechanics were off.  Obviously that is not a consciously directed thought from the analytical part of the brain but is some sort of reaction from the 'right side' of the brain which is in the part that keeps us upright and prevents us from falling over or otherwise hurting ourselves during a golf swing.  That reactionary part of the brain is why golfers often get very angry when they cannot do some move that they are trying to do while playing.  "Aaaarg, I dipped my shoulder again!"  or whatever other useless idiot move they are trying to avoid or make.   

 

 

[cav5]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

This is an excerpt from a book Mike Dunaway wrote "Hit it Hard" about the transition that might be of interest to some people.

 

Once the motion is trained the swing is done subconsciously by feel, proprioception. He had one swing thought and that was to start the swing. It's like once you're in motion you just go along for the ride. 

 

 

 

Never heard of Dunaway but I agree. Basically said this in another thread. Transition with goal of getting kinetic energy from body/arms into clubhead via the hands. You're ability to do that is your golf swing. You will be on lead side if you do this. Based on your grip and starting posture you'll have different looks to get the clubhead on the ball. When its eventual spiked acceleration matches up with the pivot's constant pace which had a head start...boom, release, no patterns necessary.

 

Edited March 6 by cav5