How to deal with losing your game. *videos included*

[kobe123]

All,

I am in some desperate need of advice. I feel as if I have lost all ability to hit the golf ball/score. To give some reference, last year I got down to a +2, shot the lowest round of my life at Mammoth Dunes @ -6. Currently, I’m at a 2 handicap and trending upwards as I most likely couldn’t break 85.

 

Now I have lost all ability to hit the golf ball. I’ve lost all my distance, speed, ability to hit the center. It’s at the point to where I’ve debated just putting the clubs up for awhile. I don’t know if it’s because I have too many thoughts, seen to many teachers, expect perfection, or just am scattered brained over the ball.

 

The misses I fight are pulls, pushes, toe balls, and hosels. Lol!

 

I have attached a multitude of videos. 
 

Just looking for guidance on how to deal with this. 

 

*Not sure how to upload the videos to where you can see them*

IMG_3065.MOV

IMG_3055.MOV

IMG_2972.MOV

IMG_3053.MOV

Edited March 18 by kobe123

[Zitlow]

@MPStrat is good at analyzing patterns and matchups.

 

My two cents. You're right, you don't want too many thoughts. if you're seeing a lot of teachers you're probably getting conflicting advice. You have a very good swing so you don't want to make big changes. 

 

Whatever you do going back you have to undo coming down so you want to eliminate unnecessary motion to make the swing more efficient. 

 

You have too much funky shaft twisting going on creating timing issues causing erratic contact. You roll your left forearm going back yet manage to get the face dead shut at the top. 

 

Forget about rolling your left forearm. Swing the club back using your right hand and arm like you're going to throw a football. At the top your hand, arm and club should be in a throwing position. 

[kobe123]

12 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

@MPStrat is good at analyzing patterns and matchups.

 

My two cents. You're right, you don't want too many thoughts. if you're seeing a lot of teachers you're probably getting conflicting advice. You have a very good swing so you don't want to make big changes. 

 

Whatever you do going back you have to undo coming down so you want to eliminate unnecessary motion to make the swing more efficient. 

 

You have too much funky shaft twisting going on creating timing issues causing erratic contact. You roll your left forearm going back yet manage to get the face dead shut at the top. 

 

Forget about rolling your left forearm. Swing the club back using your right hand and arm like you're going to throw a football. At the top your hand, arm and club should be in a throwing position. 

 

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I agree, something feels off. I don't feel sync'd up and I can't feel where the face is at all. Sometimes it feels super open, sometimes it feels super shut. It's something small, but I can't figure it out.

[mgoblue83]

My advice would be to change the way you practice.

 

Instead of practicing full shots I would spend a week or 2 only working on partial shots at much slower speed. 

 

The go to drill is always 100 yd 8irons. Over and over. Don't shorten your swing, just slow it down and get synced up. Once you are flushing it and starting it on line you can gradually add speed back but I would always return to the 100 yd shots every day. 

[Zitlow]

You're talented, you'll figure it out. It's a crapshoot if you don't have control of the face. The golf swing is much more simple when you let the anatomy do the work.

 

The right arm begins to fold at about P1.5, as it starts to fold the left forearm does a slight roll which opens the face onto the plane. 

 

 

 

 

[kobe123]

10 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

You're talented, you'll figure it out. It's a crapshoot if you don't have control of the face. The golf swing is much more simple when you let the anatomy do the work.

 

The right arm begins to fold at about P1.5, as it starts to fold the left forearm does a slight roll which opens the face onto the plane. 

 

 

 

 

 

I may not be seeing it, but what's the difference between this and what I do?

[CSagan]

Go work on hitting shots. Tiger's 9 window, figure out which one is easiest for ya. Meditate for a few minutes every morning. Play some 9 hole best ball scramble and worst ball scrambles. Just put the technical stuff up for a while or if you work on technical make it only for 10 minutes then go to performance stuff.

[kobe123]

1 minute ago, CSagan said:

Go work on hitting shots. Tiger's 9 window, figure out which one is easiest for ya. Meditate for a few minutes every morning. Play some 9 hole best ball scramble and worst ball scrambles. Just put the technical stuff up for a while or if you work on technical make it only for 10 minutes then go to performance stuff.

 

 

That's what I've been debating doing, just going to the range and working on hitting cuts and draws. Forget the technical and just figure it out naturally/athletically.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

My advice would be to change the way you practice.

 

Instead of practicing full shots I would spend a week or 2 only working on partial shots at much slower speed. 

 

The go to drill is always 100 yd 8irons. Over and over. Don't shorten your swing, just slow it down and get synced up. Once you are flushing it and starting it on line you can gradually add speed back but I would always return to the 100 yd shots every day. 

I think this is a good call.  When you go to a tour event, the best time to see how to practice when you’re struggling is Friday afternoon.  That’s when everyone who missed the cut is trying to figure it out.  Getting rhythm and sequencing down.  You going down a technical path with this swing won’t help at this time, IMO.

 

If a 100 meter track sprinter gets his stride off, he doesn’t work on changing it by running the 100 as fast as he can.  He does it monotonously jogging around the track until he gets it right.  
 

When I get off I sit on the range for hours (when I get time) hitting 60 yard LW’s, 100 yard PW’s and 130 yard 7 iron’s….until I can get my ball flight and sequencing right.  Then I test it on more full shots.
 

Golfers never do that.

 

 

[CSagan]

Just watched swing vids. I'd burn my swing if I could have that one lol. On the last one could see a fairly fast rate of closure on clubface. This drill below would lesson that a little for ya might bring the compression back quickly. Nothing too technical just hit hard and stop fast as you can...would look like fleetwood.

 

 

 

 

[kobe123]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I think this is a good call.  When you go to a tour event, the best time to see how to practice when you’re struggling is Friday afternoon.  That’s when everyone who missed the cut is trying to figure it out.  Getting rhythm and sequencing down.  You going down a technical path with this swing won’t help at this time, IMO.

 

If a 100 meter track sprinter gets his stride off, he doesn’t work on changing it by running the 100 as fast as he can.  He does it monotonously jogging around the track until he gets it right.  
 

When I get off I sit on the range for hours (when I get time) hitting 60 yard LW’s, 100 yard PW’s and 130 yard 7 iron’s….until I can get my ball flight and sequencing right.  Then I test it on more full shots.
 

Golfers never do that.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I think this is a good call.  When you go to a tour event, the best time to see how to practice when you’re struggling is Friday afternoon.  That’s when everyone who missed the cut is trying to figure it out.  Getting rhythm and sequencing down.  You going down a technical path with this swing won’t help at this time, IMO.

 

If a 100 meter track sprinter gets his stride off, he doesn’t work on changing it by running the 100 as fast as he can.  He does it monotonously jogging around the track until he gets it right.  
 

When I get off I sit on the range for hours (when I get time) hitting 60 yard LW’s, 100 yard PW’s and 130 yard 7 iron’s….until I can get my ball flight and sequencing right.  Then I test it on more full shots.
 

Golfers never do that.

 

 

 

 

Monte, 

 

Thanks for the response. This is most likely when I pause at the top I seem to hit great shots because everything is sync'd up.

 

I will just work on hitting 7 and 8 irons with a very slow swing until I can begin to find the center again. 

 

With this, you wouldn't suggest changing anything?

[MonteScheinblum]

Just now, kobe123 said:

 

 

 

Monte, 

 

Thanks for the response. This is most likely when I pause at the top I seem to hit great shots because everything is sync'd up.

 

I will just work on hitting 7 and 8 irons with a very slow swing until I can begin to find the center again. 

 

With this, you wouldn't suggest changing anything?

Not at this time.  There is no low hanging fruit that is causing the issues you’re having.

[kobe123]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Not at this time.  There is no low hanging fruit that is causing the issues you’re having.

 

Besides just being a headcase and not practicing the thing that matters... face control and contact.

[Zitlow]

You're manipulating the clubface. You swing the shaft on plane really well but it looks to me like you roll your left forearm as you start back in a couple of your swings losing control of the clubface plane from the get go. 

 

The clubface should be on the same plane as the ball, looking at the ball until P1.5. Use your right hand and arm like you're going to throw a football to swing the club back.

 

Don't try to roll the face open or c0ck your wrists, the right arm folding does that and also adds momentum to the backswing. 

 

 

 

 

 

[kobe123]

1 minute ago, Zitlow said:

You're manipulating the clubface. You swing the shaft on plane really well but it looks to me like you roll your left forearm as you start back in a couple of your swings losing control of the clubface plane from the get go. 

 

The clubface should be on the same plane as the ball, looking at the ball until P1.5. Use your right hand and arm like you're going to throw a football to swing the club back.

 

Don't try to roll the face open or c0ck your wrists, the right arm folding does that and also adds momentum to the backswing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roll it open or closed? Essentially keep the clubface looking at the ball longer

Edited March 18 by kobe123

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

Besides just being a headcase and not practicing the thing that matters... face control and contact.

There’s two kinds of practice.  Movement pattern practice and ball striking practice.  You have to do both and you can’t mix them.  99% of ams either don’t do one of them, or they mix them.

 

Let’s say you’re working in shift.  Golfers will make a perfect shift, then lament it pushed to the right when the shift was perfect.  Body and brain will react like, “Well, he didn’t like that, let’s not do that again.”

 

Then they will be on the course trying to hit good shots, hit a bad shot and say, “Dang, I didn’t shift properly.”  
 

Then you’re out in the course playing golf swing.

[Pepperturbo]

Obviously, you have skills.  I am not an instructor, nor do I offer golf instruction. 

 

What's easy to picture people enlisting too many opinions, and losing sight of basic principles?  You haven't lost your game, you've lost sight of the basic principles.  

 

When that happens, and it happens to many, that's when I go back to basics and practice 1/2 to 3/4 shorts using mid-short irons, at specific targets.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

Obviously, you have skills.  I am not an instructor, nor do I offer golf instruction. 

 

What's easy to picture people enlisting too many opinions, and losing sight of basic principles?  You haven't lost your game, you've lost sight of the basic principles.  

 

When that happens, and it happens to many, that's when I go back to basics and practice 1/2 to 3/4 shorts using mid-short irons, at specific targets.

Kobe, you’ve had three people give you this advice, I’d listen.

[kobe123]

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Kobe, you’ve had three people give you this advice, I’d listen.

Dumb question, but can you work on this indoors?

[MonteScheinblum]

5 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

Dumb question, but can you work on this indoors?

Of course.  I don’t like hitting full shots indoors with that mats.  So when I practice at my facility and not on grass, I almost never hit full shots 

[Zitlow]

16 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

 

Roll it open or closed?

 

Neither, whatever you do going back you have to undo coming down so why would you want to introduce efficiency killing unnecessary motion?

 

You're overthinking it, let your anatomy do the work instead of trying to manipulate the club. 

[ShortGolfer]

When my swing isn't working I go back to hitting my 7 iron.  I had to do that a lot when I first started playing golf on golf course.

 

Right now I'm working ball speed with my driver.  What I find interesting is that when my arms feel connected to my body and I use a rotational swing, it seems like I'm not moving fast at all.

Yet the foam practice ball goes farther across the yard!  Perception and reality can be two different things.

Edited March 18 by ShortGolfer

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, kobe123 said:

 

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I agree, something feels off. I don't feel sync'd up and I can't feel where the face is at all. Sometimes it feels super open, sometimes it feels super shut. It's something small, but I can't figure it out.

 

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

 

 

 

Monte, 

 

Thanks for the response. This is most likely when I pause at the top I seem to hit great shots because everything is sync'd up.

 

I will just work on hitting 7 and 8 irons with a very slow swing until I can begin to find the center again. 

 

With this, you wouldn't suggest changing anything?

With these comments in mind and the videos you provided i'd like to offer some thoughts as I see some definite patterns here that might help to look at:

Broadly speaking I want to touch on:

1) How and when you set your right wrist
2) How and when you're pivoting
3) How much lag/angle you retain in the downswing
4) How these patterns vary between two of these swings



Two main things to note here from the list above:

1) Your right wrist at this stage has basically no radial deviation (upward hinging). You'd normally like to see some here, especially if your tendency is to hinge a lot later (which you do). The blue shirt swing almost looks like it's bordering on *ulnar* deviation i.e. hinging downwards. It's very slight, but the natural tendency here *should* be to hinge upwards at least slightly, so complete flatness here is worth noting as it's either intentional (and you should consider changing this) or it isn't and you should definitely be aware of it. To zoom in and compare:



You on the left and Adam Scott on the right. He hinges more than some, but you're definitely hinging far far less which will be relevant later. Personally I like to think of this hinge angle as a "how much do I sense the club" meter. More hinge = more load in the right hand = more feedback to your brain about the position of the club. Because of how much lag you have both in transition and later in the swing, this pronounced *lack* of it here is a potential red flag. Anyone that complains of not having a feel for where the club head is that has this passive of a right wrist in the backswing is worth noting for these reasons, and getting that hinge in earlier will almost always increase this awareness. 

2) Back to the gif above, note the difference in lower body shift via the difference in distance between your right hip and the red line. On the left you load back into a braced right leg and on the right you actually turn in towards the target a bit. The former is typical of a pretty "standard" shift and the latter is typical of a more "centered" one, two different patterns overall that will become relevant later.



Again going to focus on the same two areas as above; wrists and pelvis.

1) Up to the top of the swing its the same pattern in both; almost no radial deviation at P3 (left arm parallel to the ground) and all of it being added between P3 and P4, especially here:



That is quite a lot of hinging in transition which is quite late. If our awareness of the club head and it's position comes from sensory input via our hands, this amount of last minute change to said input can very easily throw off your awareness, a good reason to get this hinge in earlier.

2) Very big differences in the lower body again. On the left we see a more conventional re-centering/falling towards the target in the last frame with your back towards the target and everything fairly quiet, good stuff IMO. This is exactly what Adam Scott is referring to when he says the backswing has to "mature" at the top, e.g. be a little patient. On the right however we see quite a violent move in place of that re-centering, which is almost non-existent likely by design in trying to stay more "centered" with your rotation. You immediately start ripping the left hip open while your right side is quite stationary. This is another red flag that we'll see the effects of later, overall something that appears very out of sequence.



Very big differences in lag here as you can see. On the left you have *loads*, a bit too much IMO as it's well beyond 90*. Very Cameron Champ-esque and demanding of good hands. On the right we see a more "conventional" amount. You're shifting laterally a lot less on the right and critically the move your right side makes towards the target is the *last* one that occurs in the downswing as we'll see how out of sequence you are here below:



On the left we see a lower body that comes through the hitting area decently in sequence, but on the right you completely stall, those extra frames showing how long it takes for your right side to end up in the same position as on the left. This is what happens when you attempt to rip your left side open too early/too aggressively in the downswing; your right side keeps getting left behind. The one handed finish in that swing likely the product of how bad this felt.

All that stuff that got you to a +2 is in here, but we can see some pretty big variations in things that explain why you've lost the plot a bit. Getting your right hand set earlier so it isn't loading up so much so late in the backswing is what I would look at first, supported by your comment above about seeing much better results when pausing at the top. IMO that is a bit of a bandaid to give you more time to gain awareness of a club that is loading quite late. Get it loaded earlier with a feeling like it is arriving at the top already loaded and you'll likely gain more control over feeling "sync'd up", although a pause is still ok to use. The second bit would be committing to a lower body pattern as these are very different here, suggesting a lack of the ingrained fundamentals that would have otherwise kept you from losing so much confidence. The "centered pivot" move on the right above definitely produced a poor swing, and while that doesn't mean it's worth abandoning, the slight pause at the top while you re-center in the left swing combined with your comments above suggest that this is a better pattern to focus on, which is supported by the feeling of a little lateral shift in the backswing. Slightly more Adam Scott, less Bryson if that makes sense.

Approaching this slowly and intuitively as suggested above is still the way to go IMO, hopefully this info can just provide a shortcut or at least a good starting point. 👍

[kobe123]

9 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

With these comments in mind and the videos you provided i'd like to offer some thoughts as I see some definite patterns here that might help to look at:

Broadly speaking I want to touch on:

1) How and when you set your right wrist
2) How and when you're pivoting
3) How much lag/angle you retain in the downswing
4) How these patterns vary between two of these swings



Two main things to note here from the list above:

1) Your right wrist at this stage has basically no radial deviation (upward hinging). You'd normally like to see some here, especially if your tendency is to hinge a lot later (which you do). The blue shirt swing almost looks like it's bordering on *ulnar* deviation i.e. hinging downwards. It's very slight, but the natural tendency here *should* be to hinge upwards at least slightly, so complete flatness here is worth noting as it's either intentional (and you should consider changing this) or it isn't and you should definitely be aware of it. To zoom in and compare:



You on the left and Adam Scott on the right. He hinges more than some, but you're definitely hinging far far less which will be relevant later. Personally I like to think of this hinge angle as a "how much do I sense the club" meter. More hinge = more load in the right hand = more feedback to your brain about the position of the club. Because of how much lag you have both in transition and later in the swing, this pronounced *lack* of it here is a potential red flag. Anyone that complains of not having a feel for where the club head is that has this passive of a right wrist in the backswing is worth noting for these reasons, and getting that hinge in earlier will almost always increase this awareness. 

2) Back to the gif above, note the difference in lower body shift via the difference in distance between your right hip and the red line. On the left you load back into a braced right leg and on the right you actually turn in towards the target a bit. The former is typical of a pretty "standard" shift and the latter is typical of a more "centered" one, two different patterns overall that will become relevant later.



Again going to focus on the same two areas as above; wrists and pelvis.

1) Up to the top of the swing its the same pattern in both; almost no radial deviation at P3 (left arm parallel to the ground) and all of it being added between P3 and P4, especially here:



That is quite a lot of hinging in transition which is quite late. If our awareness of the club head and it's position comes from sensory input via our hands, this amount of last minute change to said input can very easily throw off your awareness, a good reason to get this hinge in earlier.

2) Very big differences in the lower body again. On the left we see a more conventional re-centering/falling towards the target in the last frame with your back towards the target and everything fairly quiet, good stuff IMO. This is exactly what Adam Scott is referring to when he says the backswing has to "mature" at the top, e.g. be a little patient. On the right however we see quite a violent move in place of that re-centering, which is almost non-existent likely by design in trying to stay more "centered" with your rotation. You immediately start ripping the left hip open while your right side is quite stationary. This is another red flag that we'll see the effects of later, overall something that appears very out of sequence.



Very big differences in lag here as you can see. On the left you have *loads*, a bit too much IMO as it's well beyond 90*. Very Cameron Champ-esque and demanding of good hands. On the right we see a more "conventional" amount. You're shifting laterally a lot less on the right and critically the move your right side makes towards the target is the *last* one that occurs in the downswing as we'll see how out of sequence you are here below:



On the left we see a lower body that comes through the hitting area decently in sequence, but on the right you completely stall, those extra frames showing how long it takes for your right side to end up in the same position as on the left. This is what happens when you attempt to rip your left side open too early/too aggressively in the downswing; your right side keeps getting left behind. The one handed finish in that swing likely the product of how bad this felt.

All that stuff that got you to a +2 is in here, but we can see some pretty big variations in things that explain why you've lost the plot a bit. Getting your right hand set earlier so it isn't loading up so much so late in the backswing is what I would look at first, supported by your comment above about seeing much better results when pausing at the top. IMO that is a bit of a bandaid to give you more time to gain awareness of a club that is loading quite late. Get it loaded earlier with a feeling like it is arriving at the top already loaded and you'll likely gain more control over feeling "sync'd up", although a pause is still ok to use. The second bit would be committing to a lower body pattern as these are very different here, suggesting a lack of the ingrained fundamentals that would have otherwise kept you from losing so much confidence. The "centered pivot" move on the right above definitely produced a poor swing, and while that doesn't mean it's worth abandoning, the slight pause at the top while you re-center in the left swing combined with your comments above suggest that this is a better pattern to focus on, which is supported by the feeling of a little lateral shift in the backswing. Slightly more Adam Scott, less Bryson if that makes sense.

Approaching this slowly and intuitively as suggested above is still the way to go IMO, hopefully this info can just provide a shortcut or at least a good starting point. 👍

This is great. 
 

The video on the left, I was working on getting the club more in front of me on the backswing. I always thought it was a major issue. See video of the same day. 
 

I agree with the Lower body, I always spin out on the course.

 

I do agree, that I feel out of sequence most likely because I’m not drifting towards target in the backswing. 
 

thoughts on this swing?

[virtuoso]

31 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

This is great. 
 

The video on the left, I was working on getting the club more in front of me on the backswing. I always thought it was a major issue. See video of the same day. 
 

I agree with the Lower body, I always spin out on the course.

 

I do agree, that I feel out of sequence most likely because I’m not drifting towards target in the backswing. 
 

thoughts on this swing?

IMG_2971.MOV

Who knows exactly what caused the spiral, but.....

 

You're standing too close to the ball, so it sets off a chain of events where you have to pivot from your heels and keep the arms behind your torso to narrow the swing radius.

 

Even on the swing above you have to fall backwards during your pivot like your sitting down in a chair to make room for your arms to swing.

 

Since Valtiel brought up Adam Scott......check out his DTL address with an iron compared to yours.....you shouldn't stand as far way as he does but at least he can pivot from a place closer to the balls of his feet, and not have to fall backwards from the ball. I don't think standing farther from the ball is a cure-all, but you may want to play around with it on the range to see if it makes your pivot feel different and free up your arm swing. It looks really claustrophobic right now.

 

You are one of the few guys who would have to be told to work away from the tush line....because you are breaking through it.

[DLiver]

Swing looks great. I think it is a sequencing/tempo issue. FWIW, when my swing is off, I tend to get faster/quicker, particularly in transition. I start hitting it a little off center, and I'm a little short. So I start to swing a little harder, and I miss the center a little more, and I am a little shorter/more off line. Before long, my tempo/sequencing is terrible and I can't hit the ball at all!

 

Eventually, I slow everything down, and weirdly my ball striking improves, and my ball flight also improves.

 

I kinda feel llke this is what I'm seeing in your swing. Disclaimer: I'm not a teacher just a dude who plays a lot and tries to get good, with mixed success. 😜

 

EDIT: ok a bunch of great advice came in before I posted. Refer to those please lol.

Edited March 18 by DLiver

[kobe123]

@Valtiel

 

Is this what you are looking for?

[kobe123]

@Valtiel

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

12 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

@Valtiel

 

Is this what you are looking for?

Money!

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

@Valtiel

 

Is this what you are looking for?

IMG_3154.MOV

 

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

@Valtiel

 

 

IMG_3156.MOV

 

3 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Money!

Agreed, solid wrist set there. Your ability to produce tons of lag and hand speed and really "whip" the club means you'll just want to keep an eye on making sure your wrists get set completely like this and in the correct time so you don't get that late set float load move going. From here i'll be curious how this scales as you add more speed with longer clubs and what your misses look like. Please include DTL videos when you do!