Chipping Yips - Mental Block

[Ty_Webb]

The first time I yipped a chip was in about 2001. Have had them ever since. They are sometimes not too bad and sometimes pretty dreadful. A few things that I have found to have helped. One - no caffeine. Two - no alcohol. Three - get lessons with someone you trust for short game and do it soon. I didn't do that and now, even if my technique is better, mentally it's still there. So I get tight, nervous, short, fast, grip too hard and that combination pretty much guarantees a poor shot no matter how good your "technique" might be.

 

For a long time I didn't believe it was technique based. Reason being on days when it was not there, I could do anything and chip it fine. I can put the ball six inches outside my left foot or my right foot and hit perfectly serviceable chips. I can take it up vertically, twist it around and hit it every which way and still make good contact and hit a decent shot. But when it's there, I can't do anything to get rid of it. And I know it's coming when I walk up to the ball. Then I got a lesson from Mark Roe (of DQ in final round of the Open while tied or at least close to the lead fame). He listened to me tell him all that stuff and he said it's definitely technique based. That he's never seen anyone with them who wasn't fixable. So he watched me knife one over the green and then flub one a foot, told me to hit another one. Unbeknownst to me, he put the grip of his club against my left hip (I'm right handed) and held it there so I couldn't slide. It was honestly like magic. The club just naturally arranged itself and I hit it well. I'd been expecting to yip it and hadn't. That was a first and it was like a light bulb went off and there is obviously a technique issue.

 

I now think it starts with technique. Could be something tiny. Each time you swing it the wrong way and it doesn't come off quite right, your mind builds it up and up until it decides it can't do it, so it baulks. Spend a couple of years doing that and now even if you fix your technique, it's still there in your subconscious. That's why I'd suggest getting whatever it is fixed now before it's had too much time to bed in. I've had mine for 23 years and counting. Still looking for something to fully fix it. I can't go back to see Mark Roe again. I won the lesson in an auction and he told me that the price I got it for was so low that he wouldn't have agreed to do it if he'd known. He normally has a reserve price on these things. He's in the GBP1,500-2,000 per hour range I think, which is way too steep for me. He told me that even at that level, he's basically sold out. He doesn't want to do it as his job, just for a bit of fun on the side, hence the ridiculous pricing. Trying to get hold of Ridyard now. I like a lot of his stuff. 

 

Back to it - I got it with my long putts as well. Switched to a claw grip and that shut it down pretty much completely. I've tried left hand low, but it doesn't feel good to me. I may give it more of a try. It's kind of fine on a normal shot from the fairway kind of thing, but sitting down in the rough where you need some speed, it just doesn't do it. I just heard something about botox injections to the forearm. That seems like a little much too though. 

 

Last one - I did watch this video recently: 

 

I thought this was pretty good since it talks about ways to reduce the mental impact of it, not so much the technique side. I need a bit of both.  

[mizunotpz]

Focusing on a good tempo and proper setup has been key for me

[Chunkitgood]

Do you chip with your 60 degree wedge?

[Dboy97]

12 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Do you chip with your 60 degree wedge?

 

Nope. Typically my 52 degree. Anywhere tight around the greens, obviously depending on how I want the shot to go I can play anywhere from a 52 to a 9 iron.

[Louis_Posture]

Chipping yips, like putting yips, happen because the right hand yips the stroke.

The best chipping chip cure I've learned is swing left. The only swing thought from within 10 yards of the green is to make the downstroke a swing left stroke.

[Socrates]

On 4/23/2024 at 4:38 PM, Ty_Webb said:

...

Then I got a lesson from Mark Roe (of DQ in final round of the Open while tied or at least close to the lead fame). He listened to me tell him all that stuff and he said it's definitely technique based. That he's never seen anyone with them who wasn't fixable. So he watched me knife one over the green and then flub one a foot, told me to hit another one. Unbeknownst to me, he put the grip of his club against my left hip (I'm right handed) and held it there so I couldn't slide. It was honestly like magic. The club just naturally arranged itself and I hit it well. I'd been expecting to yip it and hadn't. That was a first and it was like a light bulb went off and there is obviously a technique issue. 

....

This^^^

In the RH only drill, you just don't slide.  The other thing was learning/realizing that your swing can be so much longer and have more speed than you thought possible and still hit it only a short distance.

[Ty_Webb]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:24 PM, Mono said:

Raymond Prior as done some work on the yips, the book only has a couple pages on it:

Golf Beneath the Surface: The New Science of Golf Psychology: Prior PHD, Raymond: 9781637743096: Amazon.com: Books

 

the podcast, likely worth your time, has an episode on it

Golf Beneath The Surface: The Yips on Apple Podcasts 

 

the way Raymond describes it - the yips are much less scary than has been suggested, and having an answer to what is actually happening re knowledge - is a good place to start

 

I listened to the podcast. It's really quite fascinating to hear the stories that both he and short game coaches like Parker McLachlin tell. Prior says you can't fix it with a technical change because the underlying psychological issue is still there. He says even if you make a change and they go away, they'll almost always come back 30-90 days later. Personally, I had yips with my longer putts (any time I felt like I had to add some hit to get it there). I switched to the claw grip about 15 years ago and haven't had them since, so I'm inclined to disagree with him on that one. Meanwhile shortgamechef is all about how it's technique based and if he gets someone within about 12 months of when they start yipping he can completely cure it. If it's been a long time then there's some psychological damage there too. Then there's also a theory about it being focal dystonia and botox injections in the forearms can help. 🤷‍♂️

 

I suspect that it's a little bit of both (and the focal dystonia thing is like vanishingly rare), so you can likely fix it with either way. I believe that it always starts with technique and becomes more and more mental as time goes by. It's hitting one a bit heavy because you changed your radius, so then you shorten it a bit and knife one over the green. Then you correct for that and duff one again. Rinse and repeat over a few years and your brain starts to say "yeah, no we're not doing that". So you can either stop yourself caring, in which case the brain defense mechanism goes away and you'll just chip suboptimally, but without the yip. Or you can fix the technique issue and become better and then your mind can leave you be. 

 

Having said that, I do think that there is some good stuff in what he talked about. I definitely see some of what he talked about in myself. I can feel my anxiety going up as I go to play a chip. I really don't know why I care like that, but seemingly I do. I need to let that go. 

 

 

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

I listened to the podcast. It's really quite fascinating to hear the stories that both he and short game coaches like Parker McLachlin tell. Prior says you can't fix it with a technical change because the underlying psychological issue is still there. He says even if you make a change and they go away, they'll almost always come back 30-90 days later. Personally, I had yips with my longer putts (any time I felt like I had to add some hit to get it there). I switched to the claw grip about 15 years ago and haven't had them since, so I'm inclined to disagree with him on that one. Meanwhile shortgamechef is all about how it's technique based and if he gets someone within about 12 months of when they start yipping he can completely cure it. If it's been a long time then there's some psychological damage there too. Then there's also a theory about it being focal dystonia and botox injections in the forearms can help. 🤷‍♂️

 

I suspect that it's a little bit of both (and the focal dystonia thing is like vanishingly rare), so you can likely fix it with either way. I believe that it always starts with technique and becomes more and more mental as time goes by. It's hitting one a bit heavy because you changed your radius, so then you shorten it a bit and knife one over the green. Then you correct for that and duff one again. Rinse and repeat over a few years and your brain starts to say "yeah, no we're not doing that". So you can either stop yourself caring, in which case the brain defense mechanism goes away and you'll just chip suboptimally, but without the yip. Or you can fix the technique issue and become better and then your mind can leave you be. 

 

Having said that, I do think that there is some good stuff in what he talked about. I definitely see some of what he talked about in myself. I can feel my anxiety going up as I go to play a chip. I really don't know why I care like that, but seemingly I do. I need to let that go. 

 

 

Putting yips - I've had them.  Switched to LH putting a few times and longest duration was about 2 years.  Just needed a reset of the brainbox.  I went back to putting RH and while I occasionally get a yippy stroke, they are by and large, gone. 

 

Chipping on the other hand was and still is an issue if I let the fear get to me.  With a better approach and correct method of chipping, I feel in time that they can go away too.  Maybe not totally gone, but mostly.  

[Ty_Webb]

Just now, Socrates said:

Putting yips - I've had them.  Switched to LH putting a few times and longest duration was about 2 years.  Just needed a reset of the brainbox.  I went back to putting RH and while I occasionally get a yippy stroke, they are by and large, gone. 

 

Chipping on the other hand was and still is an issue if I let the fear get to me.  With a better approach and correct method of chipping, I feel in time that they can go away too.  Maybe not totally gone, but mostly.  

 

Mostly gone would be comfortably good enough for me - good luck!

[Haroputt]

On 4/23/2024 at 9:24 AM, Mono said:

what you have clearly described is the beginning of the yips - ask me how i know

 

i would say i haven't seen a ton of great research here - even though it effects guys even at the highest level

 

chipping cross handed will help - just like guys with the putting yips switch out putter and grip styles, the brain doesn't know what you are doing so it doesn't interrupt the swing - in time it likely will

 

Raymond Prior as done some work on the yips, the book only has a couple pages on it:

Golf Beneath the Surface: The New Science of Golf Psychology: Prior PHD, Raymond: 9781637743096: Amazon.com: Books

 

the podcast, likely worth your time, has an episode on it

Golf Beneath The Surface: The Yips on Apple Podcasts 

 

the way Raymond describes it - the yips are much less scary than has been suggested, and having an answer to what is actually happening re knowledge - is a good place to start

 

it sounds like you are a really high level player with a very high level of understanding of what you are doing, with that said if pro's can have a hard time with their short game - anyone can,  understanding what you are trying to do and how the best in the world hit chips/ pitches will likely help, the arguement lately has been steep/ shallow - idk but the data shows the best in the world have 12-15 degrees of shaft lean in their short game shots, if you google dr rob neal - he's done a fair amount of work showing what the best in the world actually do,  it could help - i doubt it will hurt

 

good luck - i'd guess at the end of your journey here - golf will be very very fun 

 

tom pitching - nice mental image imo

 

 

the podcast  I listen to it   Really worth listening to it 

Golf Beneath The Surface: The Yips on Apple Podcasts 

Just as I thought yips is anxiety driven  and for me 

I get mostly chipping yips and less putting and swing yips  cause there is some many options when it come it chipping that my mind is filled with too many thoughts at once

getting to lower the expectations and trying some thing completely different like cross handed can help 

For me it  was chipping left handed , not only did my expectation lower, completely rethought what my preconceived thought about what the  chipping motion was

Also performance anxiety and how players get embarrassed when they think they "should" be able to perform an easy task such  as making a 4 footer  Not all the time 

 

[Tanner25]

My yips are mostly small twitches where the ball still gets on the green. I just realized something today while practicing. If I choke down to the edge of the grip I had great results. More importantly, I felt in control of the swing and I can swing harder and get a good result. 

[Mono]

glad some people got something out of the podcast - i know it helped me

[Dboy97]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:08 PM, Scottbox said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate and assert that your yips situation actually is rooted in a technical problem (credit to @MonteScheinblum for this supposition). Your "yippy" move is likely your body's last-millisecond attempt to compensate for whatever technical issue you have. You can get away with it on the practice green because there's no pressure of any kind, but I'll bet anything that once a score or bet or tournament enters the picture, things go downhill. This kind of thing can wreak havoc on your confidence as well as your nervous system, and I'd really consider the idea of working with someone who is good with the short game to sort out the root cause of your issues. 

 

Finally got around to actually filming myself swing. This would be a swing I would take from 25-30 yards out pitching into the green. I would say, without question, this is the worst element of my game.

 

I filmed until I hit my typical miss (thin, 30 yard shot ends up rocketing 45-50 yards and I face the misery of having to make it again from past the green) and then I filmed until I hit a few crisp ones. Both from behind the line and face on.

 

The difficulty here is I don't FEEL anything different about these two swings. One is crisp contact and the other is a missile.

 

I believe I get a bit under plane on the takeaway but not so much that it should be a massive detriment. 

 

I'd love some thoughts.

 

 

Edited Friday at 07:24 PM by Dboy97

[Louis_Posture]

23 minutes ago, Dboy97 said:

 

Finally got around to actually filming myself swing. This would be a swing I would take from 25-30 yards out pitching into the green. I would say, without question, this is the worst element of my game.

 

I filmed until I hit my typical miss (thin, 30 yard shot ends up rocketing 45-50 yards and I face the misery of having to make it again from past the green) and then I filmed until I hit a few crisp ones. Both from behind the line and face on.

 

The difficulty here is I don't FEEL anything different about these two swings. One is crisp contact and the other is a missile.

 

I believe I get a bit under plane on the takeaway but not so much that it should be a massive detriment. 

 

I'd love some thoughts.

 

 

Your thread is titled chipping yips yet in this video you are making big swings and discussing 30 yard carry shots.

A chip shot is played within 5 yards of the green and is a small stroke, not much longer than a putting stroke, and is usually best done with a low lofted club such as a 9-iron.

 

[Dboy97]

Just now, Louis_Posture said:

Your thread is titled chipping yips yet in this video you are making big swings and discussing 30 yard carry shots.

A chip shot is played within 5 yards of the green and is a small stroke, not much longer than a putting stroke, and is usually best done with a low lofted club such as a 9-iron.

 

 

Yeah sorry, the title is a bit misleading I guess. I do mention in the introduction post, my main issues are simply inside 50 yards for the most part.

[nikos74]

Roughly speaking a chip is about 25% carry and 75% roll.  A pitch about 50% carry and 50% roll.  A flop 75% carry and 25% roll.

 

You have a decent swing, but it seems like a full pitch shot.  If it's a 58 to 64 you will probably get 40 to 60 yards in distance.

 

For a chip about a third to half that swing length.

[Dboy97]

27 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Roughly speaking a chip is about 25% carry and 75% roll.  A pitch about 50% carry and 50% roll.  A flop 75% carry and 25% roll.

 

You have a decent swing, but it seems like a full pitch shot.  If it's a 58 to 64 you will probably get 40 to 60 yards in distance.

 

For a chip about a third to half that swing length.

 

Yeah, the video was supposed to kind of highlight a 25-30 yard pitch shot. I didn't have my launch monitor on so I don't know how far it would have went, but I realize it's not really a chip. In the initial post I had mentioned I really struggle on anything inside 50 yards.

 

I've been meaning to tackle this element of my game first and then work my way closer, as generally once I'm inside 30 yards I can play a pretty good game simply going left hand low.

 

Eventually, I want to tackle that element as well, but this would be my main focal point right now.

Edited Friday at 09:40 PM by Dboy97

[nikos74]

Does the grip feel neutral and comfortable?  I see some wrist bending, instead of wrist rotation, both on the backswing and downswing.  This could throw the club off-plane.

 

Perhaps bend a little more from the hips, combined with more flexibility in the knees.

Edited Saturday at 12:13 PM by nikos74

[Dboy97]

3 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Does the grip feel neutral and comfortable?  I see some wrist bending, instead of wrist rotation, both on the backswing and downswing.  This could throw the club off-plane.

 

Perhaps bend a little more from the hips, combined with more flexibility in the knees.

 

Top hand is neutral and bottom hand is weaker. Both Thumb/index creases pointed to my chin. 

 

This is not my standard grip. Typical grip for me is completely neutral. I modified it a bit as I feel I can generally get better results with this. Probably because it leads to an open face and more bounce. Problem is it does lead to some higher launch angles.

 

I've messed around with different grips, particularly strengthening it, and a stronger grip does lead to lower launch/better contact. But after a while I just go back to the same old stuff. Rockets across the green. I think maybe because it "feels" a bit different to change up the grip it results in a bit of a mental reset for a while.

[Socrates]

20 hours ago, Dboy97 said:

 

Finally got around to actually filming myself swing. This would be a swing I would take from 25-30 yards out pitching into the green. I would say, without question, this is the worst element of my game.

 

I filmed until I hit my typical miss (thin, 30 yard shot ends up rocketing 45-50 yards and I face the misery of having to make it again from past the green) and then I filmed until I hit a few crisp ones. Both from behind the line and face on.

 

The difficulty here is I don't FEEL anything different about these two swings. One is crisp contact and the other is a missile.

 

I believe I get a bit under plane on the takeaway but not so much that it should be a massive detriment. 

 

I'd love some thoughts.

 

 

Very different impact positions.  At 7 seconds look at your hips.  At 17 seconds look at your hips.  Even to my relatively untrained eye, I can tell which one is better.

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, Dboy97 said:

This is not my standard grip. Typical grip for me is completely neutral. I modified it a bit as I feel I can generally get better results with this. Probably because it leads to an open face and more bounce. Problem is it does lead to some higher launch angles.

With a neutral grip you have to turn through the ball to avoid slices and shanks, but it is more reliable and easier to execute in the long run.  High overhead, low maintainance.

 

Strong grips are better suited towards two plane swings.  Less body rotation, more arms and hands involved, hard to time the release.  Low overhead, high maintainance.

Edited Saturday at 04:44 PM by nikos74

[ingster1]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:38 PM, Ty_Webb said:

The first time I yipped a chip was in about 2001. Have had them ever since. They are sometimes not too bad and sometimes pretty dreadful. A few things that I have found to have helped. One - no caffeine. Two - no alcohol. Three - get lessons with someone you trust for short game and do it soon. I didn't do that and now, even if my technique is better, mentally it's still there. So I get tight, nervous, short, fast, grip too hard and that combination pretty much guarantees a poor shot no matter how good your "technique" might be.

 

For a long time I didn't believe it was technique based. Reason being on days when it was not there, I could do anything and chip it fine. I can put the ball six inches outside my left foot or my right foot and hit perfectly serviceable chips. I can take it up vertically, twist it around and hit it every which way and still make good contact and hit a decent shot. But when it's there, I can't do anything to get rid of it. And I know it's coming when I walk up to the ball. Then I got a lesson from Mark Roe (of DQ in final round of the Open while tied or at least close to the lead fame). He listened to me tell him all that stuff and he said it's definitely technique based. That he's never seen anyone with them who wasn't fixable. So he watched me knife one over the green and then flub one a foot, told me to hit another one. Unbeknownst to me, he put the grip of his club against my left hip (I'm right handed) and held it there so I couldn't slide. It was honestly like magic. The club just naturally arranged itself and I hit it well. I'd been expecting to yip it and hadn't. That was a first and it was like a light bulb went off and there is obviously a technique issue.

 

I now think it starts with technique. Could be something tiny. Each time you swing it the wrong way and it doesn't come off quite right, your mind builds it up and up until it decides it can't do it, so it baulks. Spend a couple of years doing that and now even if you fix your technique, it's still there in your subconscious. That's why I'd suggest getting whatever it is fixed now before it's had too much time to bed in. I've had mine for 23 years and counting. Still looking for something to fully fix it. I can't go back to see Mark Roe again. I won the lesson in an auction and he told me that the price I got it for was so low that he wouldn't have agreed to do it if he'd known. He normally has a reserve price on these things. He's in the GBP1,500-2,000 per hour range I think, which is way too steep for me. He told me that even at that level, he's basically sold out. He doesn't want to do it as his job, just for a bit of fun on the side, hence the ridiculous pricing. Trying to get hold of Ridyard now. I like a lot of his stuff. 

 

Back to it - I got it with my long putts as well. Switched to a claw grip and that shut it down pretty much completely. I've tried left hand low, but it doesn't feel good to me. I may give it more of a try. It's kind of fine on a normal shot from the fairway kind of thing, but sitting down in the rough where you need some speed, it just doesn't do it. I just heard something about botox injections to the forearm. That seems like a little much too though. 

 

Last one - I did watch this video recently: 

 

I thought this was pretty good since it talks about ways to reduce the mental impact of it, not so much the technique side. I need a bit of both.  

Thanks for your post and the video.  I like the drills at the end of it, especially the 1-2 count one.  I was making really good, consistent contact with that drill - resulting in soft shots with decent spin.  I might try to use it on the course though I’ll have to get a better feel for distance control with it.

[Dboy97]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

Very different impact positions.  At 7 seconds look at your hips.  At 17 seconds look at your hips.  Even to my relatively untrained eye, I can tell which one is better.

 

Bit of a stall out in rotation on the first one is what you're saying?

[Dboy97]

Reached out to a buddy of mine who is a top level coach, I've worked with him routinely in the past. Sent him my swing and he suggested I was getting too handsy/flippy at impact, along with a bit too much club manipulation with the wrists at the start of the back swing to get it into position.

 

He suggested I strengthen my grip and feel as though the club is "dragging" along the ground in my backswing, which would reduce the need to get wristy. It will also initiate some shoulder/chest rotation as he says the bulk of my "yippy" movement is stalling out my turn. Because I was quite flippy, the stall out in rotation caused me to flip at the ball early which is why I caught so many balls with the leading edge and rocketed them across the green.

Absolute game changing swing thought for me, the low drag. Hit a bunch on the range, went out on the course and struck nearly every pitch I played well.

 

The shots on the course didn't really turn out all that well, as this reduced my launch angle drastically and added a ton of distance. But that will come with some practice. I found it a bit funny a couple of my buddies were wondering why I was happy with a 30 yard pitch shot that ended up 20 yards over the green 😂.

[Socrates]

5 minutes ago, Dboy97 said:

. It will also initiate some shoulder/chest rotation as he says the bulk of my "yippy" movement is stalling out my turn. Because I was quite flippy, the stall out in rotation caused me to flip at the ball early which is why I caught so many balls with the leading edge and rocketed them across the green.

Absolute game changing swing thought for me, the low drag. Hit a bunch on the range, went out on the course and struck nearly every pitch I played well.

 

I assume my check is in the mail.

[nikos74]

What your instructor labeled handsy and flipping I labeled as wrist bending.  Only apparent with face on at 0.25 speed.

 

Also bending your back and knees more should help you rotate easier.  You seem a bit upright and rigid.

 

 

[Rdailey9108]

So what I did today and this obviously is what works for me, but I squeezed my arms onto my pec, tried to eliminate the overactive hips and made a committed swing Making sure to finish my rotation. $$$

[SheriffBooth]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:23 PM, Dboy97 said:

 

Finally got around to actually filming myself swing. This would be a swing I would take from 25-30 yards out pitching into the green. I would say, without question, this is the worst element of my game.

 

I filmed until I hit my typical miss (thin, 30 yard shot ends up rocketing 45-50 yards and I face the misery of having to make it again from past the green) and then I filmed until I hit a few crisp ones. Both from behind the line and face on.

 

The difficulty here is I don't FEEL anything different about these two swings. One is crisp contact and the other is a missile.

 

 

 

I'm not an instructor by any means, but this looks steep to me with a lot of hand and wrist release, so when you get your hands timed perfectly you make good contact, but if the timing is off just about anything can happen. 

 

Look at how little wrist action Tiger has here, and how the handle and his body move in sync, then compare side by side with your current action.  For you, that would mean less hands and wrists, belt buckle and handle staying linked through the ball, and very little release (clubface stays open through the ball).

 

 

[Jugs]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:29 PM, Dboy97 said:

If I were to guess, and the reason I'm guessing is my misses are generally all over the place, I'd say more on the side of thin.

 

On 4/22/2024 at 3:39 PM, Dboy97 said:

Most of my golf mates state I get a bit quick. Almost stabby...

 

Classic symptoms of starting the clubhead first more so with the hands which is inferior to starting with the legs.  Could be a set up-weight issue too.   Either way, ground up.