Best option for higher launch ?

[Andygolderson]

Hello, 

 

Need some advice on how to best gain launch from long irons in one length setting.

 

I converted SMS Pro into one length with TRAVIL shafts - PW 115x, tip trimmed half and inch and cut to an "8-iron length".

I get good distances with plug and play, without many modifications from Pw to 5 iron. The only thing i did was to match all the head weights to be equal.

 

I got a hold of the 3 and 4 iron but i did not have matching shafts yet. Instead, I put in some "random" Aldila RIP SLT 115x. I couldn't find much on their profile and bought 2 random pulls. I find them to feel nice and launch fairly low. (not sure whether "low" matches their profile or not).

 

Anyway, I realized the SLT were not widely available and only got my hands on 2, then later I bought the TRAVIL and happy with them. I understand it's not apples to apples, but by understanding the profile of the 2, I can prehaps better understand if my judgement of lower is really correct.

 

I'm wondering now what is my best option to have a higher launch from 3 & 4 iron if I continue with the TRAVIL.

 

For example; (115 X PW shafts)

Should I go lighter than 115 ?

Should I go down in flex ? by how much ? X to S X to R ?

Should i keep the same weight (115) but target a different iron ? tip and cut a 4i, for example, instead of the PW variant ?

 

5 iron is my longest iron currently, and with the PW 115x shaft half inch tipped, still performs nice (~200yds). However, i'm just wondering if I would have continued success with this combo in the 3, or try to target some different variant of the TRAVIL and have it launch higher in the 3 and 4 i.

 

Thanks.

[Cwebb]

I'd stop at the 5i that is working for you and go to hybrids for longer iron replacement

[Andygolderson]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:08 PM, Cwebb said:

I'd stop at the 5i that is working for you and go to hybrids for longer iron replacement

I don't do hybrids 🤮🤮🤮🤮.

 

 

[third-times-a-charm]

8 minutes ago, Andygolderson said:

I don't do hybrids 🤮🤮🤮🤮.

 

 

7w and 9w, then.

[North Butte]

If fiddling about with shaft specs doesn't do much (it won't) the nuclear option is to spit out the One Length Kool-Aid and just accept that lopping an inch or two off your heavy, stiff shafted long irons is going to cost you some clubhead speed, height and distance. 

[Andygolderson]

2 minutes ago, North Butte said:

If fiddling about with shaft specs doesn't do much (it won't) the nuclear option is to spit out the One Length Kool-Aid and just accept that lopping an inch or two off your heavy, stiff shafted long irons is going to cost you some clubhead speed, height and distance. 

Kool Aid is a very American term, for which I'm so not familiar. While I get the point your trying to make, I was hoping to receive a more technical response as to how I could improve my current situation and improve on my performance. 

 

I'm a very determined and stubborn guy and refuse to accept that nothing is impossible.

 

I would like to find a way to make my current choice work, as opposed to searching alternatives and giving up. 

 

I would like to understand which variables I can tweak for a better launch and potential distance from my current preference. 

 

Respectfully..

[NailedIt]

Loft is what will give you higher launch. Bend them a couple degrees weaker. You could also try a higher launching/spinning ball that stays in the air longer. These would be the cheapest and easiest variables to try rather than going down the shaft rabbit hole.

[Andygolderson]

4 minutes ago, NailedIt said:

Loft is what will give you higher launch. Bend them a couple degrees weaker. You could also try a higher launching/spinning ball that stays in the air longer. These would be the cheapest and easiest variables to try rather than going down the shaft rabbit hole.

Apparently, I like rabbit holes 😝.

 

I experimented with many balls, ultimately, I like to have high spin on approach and sort game.

I have good success on soft greens. 

 

Appreciate your feedback, I agree this is an important factor. 

 

I recently did the ballnamic and landed on a ball which I chose from my personal preference maybe 9 months ago. 

The site confirmed my feelings and I will continue with that ball. 

Last weekend, I hit 315yds of the tee, however depending on the green condition, it varies as to spin and roll.

 

I'm currently looking to achieve launch and carry from one length long irons.

 

Looking for some technical shaft tweaks to hone in on the top end irons. 

 

I'm not a fan of hybrids, they're ugly and to toe inward. 

I play a 5w to around 240, however my personal preference is playing irons. 

 

I can copy paste my current setup into these irons, but would like to be better educated on the launch conditions that different shaft profiles can deliver to better nature down my purchase. 

 

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

[ChaosTheory]

In looking at Cobra Ones in graphite, it appears that they tip them progressively softer throughout the set.

 

In their steel sets, they do that too, along with lighter weights and softer profiles.  
 

 

[ARL67]

 I've built several sets of combination single-length and very short length increments over the years.   I currently have sets of SMS Pro and SMS , one set in 3/8" increments and the other in 1/4" inc.   At some point you just run out of swing-speed and need a better tool for the job -> hybrids or fairway woods.  Or keep your set make-up single-length for whatever clubs serve you well being SL, then add some shaft length to say your 4i and 3i -> make them 7i length.

 

This thread is a great read on converting SMS Pro to SL, and he also has high swing-speed ( unlike me 😁 )

 

 

 

[North Butte]

In my inexpert opinion, unless you change loft or do something that lets you increase clubhead speed, the best you're going to do with shaft profile tweaks are fairly minor changes in height or carry distance. But maybe there's a shaft out there that's either lighter or has a different feel, allowing you to pick up a couple mph on your already considerable clubhead speed. 

[NailedIt]

1 hour ago, Andygolderson said:

Apparently, I like rabbit holes 😝.

 

I experimented with many balls, ultimately, I like to have high spin on approach and sort game.

I have good success on soft greens. 

 

Appreciate your feedback, I agree this is an important factor. 

 

I recently did the ballnamic and landed on a ball which I chose from my personal preference maybe 9 months ago. 

The site confirmed my feelings and I will continue with that ball. 

Last weekend, I hit 315yds of the tee, however depending on the green condition, it varies as to spin and roll.

 

I'm currently looking to achieve launch and carry from one length long irons.

 

Looking for some technical shaft tweaks to hone in on the top end irons. 

 

I'm not a fan of hybrids, they're ugly and to toe inward. 

I play a 5w to around 240, however my personal preference is playing irons. 

 

I can copy paste my current setup into these irons, but would like to be better educated on the launch conditions that different shaft profiles can deliver to better nature down my purchase. 

 

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

I'm sure people with more knowledge than me will chime in about shafts, but as far as I know, shafts themselves don't deliver launch and spin. They do however influence how a player delivers the shaft which will affect launch and spin. Obviously shafts have a certain bias built in, low, mid, high, but obviously each player will have different results. With that said, you probably want shafts with softer tip sections or lower kick points to help promote more loft and launch. The cliche answer would be get fit! The WRX answer would be just keep buying shafts until you find the right one, then sell it for the latest best thing, and then start a thread on shafts you loved and sold!

[otto6457]

What's your swing speed?  

[Andygolderson]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:02 PM, ChaosTheory said:

In looking at Cobra Ones in graphite, it appears that they tip them progressively softer throughout the set.

 

In their steel sets, they do that too, along with lighter weights and softer profiles.  
 

 

Yes, this is something more towards what I'm looking to find.

On 5/25/2024 at 11:13 PM, ARL67 said:

 I've built several sets of combination single-length and very short length increments over the years.   I currently have sets of SMS Pro and SMS , one set in 3/8" increments and the other in 1/4" inc.   At some point you just run out of swing-speed and need a better tool for the job -> hybrids or fairway woods.  Or keep your set make-up single-length for whatever clubs serve you well being SL, then add some shaft length to say your 4i and 3i -> make them 7i length.

 

This thread is a great read on converting SMS Pro to SL, and he also has high swing-speed ( unlike me 😁 )

 

 

 

Yes, I followed along in that one, interesting process* he went through. 

I did plug and play and it is going well, with the exception of the new long irons I acquired.

On 5/26/2024 at 1:42 AM, otto6457 said:

What's your swing speed?  

About 110-115 with driver and 90 something in irons.

Edited May 27 by Andygolderson
typo

[Stuart_G]

On 5/20/2024 at 9:57 PM, Andygolderson said:

Need some advice on how to best gain launch from long irons in one length setting.

 

There are two ways to gain launch from club changes to the irons:

 

 1) more club head speed.

or

2) more dynamic loft   

 

That's basically it.

 

With a one length setup you're not likely going to get more club head speed so that leaves dynamic loft.  Well you might gain a mph or 2 with a lighter shaft or lighter swing weight - but there is no guarantee that you really will gain any swing speed.  And even if you do it's usually is at the cost of worse dispersion, accuracy, or shot shape control.    But you never know.

 

Some people can get more dynamic loft from a softer tipped shaft - but the end result is exactly the same as if you just bent the loft weaker so IMO it's waste of time and money to fiddle with shaft launch profile - just go bend the loft until you get the launch you want.

 

Of course, increasing loft without increasing ball speed will also result in dropping your distance and distance gaps.   But there is always going to be a cost.  Nothing's for free.

Edited May 26 by Stuart_G

[Andygolderson]

20 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There are two ways to gain launch from club changes to the irons:

 

 1) more club head speed.

or

2) more dynamic loft   

 

That's basically it.

 

With a one length setup you're not likely going to get more club head speed so that leaves dynamic loft.  Well you might gain a mph or 2 with a lighter shaft or lighter swing weight - but there is no guarantee that you really will gain any swing speed.  And even if you do it's usually is at the cost of worse dispersion, accuracy, or shot shape control.    But you never know.

 

Some people can get more dynamic loft from a softer tipped shaft - but the end result is exactly the same as if you just bent the loft weaker so IMO it's waste of time and money to fiddle with shaft launch profile - just go bend the loft until you get the launch you want.

 

Of course, increasing loft without increasing ball speed will also result in dropping your distance and distance gaps.   But there is always going to be a cost.  Nothing's for free.

Hmm fair point you make about the trade-off between the tipping or lighter weight towards accuracy.

 

Reading back the other replies about loft bending, i'm also thinking how it would also not help with gapping, so it seems main limitation there. Maybe a degree or 2 could help.

 

For the ball as well, it's across the board, so i'm only looking to zoom in on 2 clubs.

 

Using a tapered shaft, will there be any advantage of selecting a specific target shaft ? Would the 2i,3i,4i,5i variant give any additional improvements towards the goal when cut to one length ? I assume the answer is also "no".

 

Maybe need to spend some more focus on dynamic loft, i'm able to get it up higher when i change my setup, but kind of deviates from the plan having to setup differently for one or 2 clubs.

 

Think I will try the lighter shaft first and decide upon which one to choose based on above answer.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

Using a tapered shaft, will there be any advantage of selecting a specific target shaft ? Would the 2i,3i,4i,5i variant give any additional improvements towards the goal when cut to one length ? I assume the answer is also "no".

 

Instead I'd say unlikely rather than a blanket no.   Picking a different base iron shaft is just hard/soft stepping.   If done 1x or 2x - that's more of a tweak to the stiffness feel and generally will have little to no effect on launch and spin.  More than 2x and that's back to point on the effect on shaft stiffness on the ball flight results and the fact that - if it does work - most of the time it's not really any different to bending the loft directly on the head.  

However anytime you're talking about a change in feel - there is also a small chance that it might result in other changes to the swing and delivery for some people.   Some potentially good and some potentially bad changes (or a combination of both).   So you never know for sure until you try it - which means it's never really a bad idea to test out different things.  Just do it with a single shaft before committing to a whole new set of shafts.

 

And if you do it for just the longer irons (instead of the whole set) then IMO that can go against the one length concept - as it can be hard for some to put the same swing on clubs that feel different.

 

Edited May 27 by Stuart_G

[Andygolderson]

Thanks very much for the insight. I don't have any sense of how different the shafts are from 3i to Pw. I understand a slight increase in weight on the shorter side.

 

My low knowledge of shaft construction lead me to believe that the longer irons flex more to help the ball in the air, but seems to be a misconception.

 

I lost my reference between 3i and 4i because while they are the "same" shaft, they are from a different starting club and i did not have the reference to check which was which, however, they are only 1 club apart, so i don't think that is relevant as to how they are both so different in the strike.

 

My current plan is to buy 1 shaft lighter and move to the 3i as the selected club and maintain the same flex. I will still tip it a half inch to try to create a similar feel as the other clubs. Probably does not make technical sense, but i feelit's more consistent with my "design" of the build, like a recipe.

 

105 x - 110g vs 115 x 120g. The torque is also 0.2 higher in the lighter shaft, which i was informed can also help with the club delivery. So far nobody mentioned the torque yet, so perhaps 3 different variables in play. (weight, torque, starting club)

[Stuart_G]

8 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

My low knowledge of shaft construction lead me to believe that the longer irons flex more to help the ball in the air, but seems to be a misconception.

 

Some shaft models (a very small minority) are designed that way.  They are generally referred to as a "flighted" set of iron shafts.   But most are designed to get a similar stiffness feel throughout the whole set - as both the length and head weight change.

 

8 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

I lost my reference between 3i and 4i because while they are the "same" shaft, they are from a different starting club and i did not have the reference to check which was which, however, they are only 1 club apart, so i don't think that is relevant as to how they are both so different in the strike.

 

You're very likely correct in that respect.

 

8 hours ago, Andygolderson said:

105 x - 110g vs 115 x 120g. The torque is also 0.2 higher in the lighter shaft, which i was informed can also help with the club delivery. So far nobody mentioned the torque yet, so perhaps 3 different variables in play. (weight, torque, starting club)

 

There is a LOT of mis-information about Torque out there.   Most of it came from the early days of graphite when too high a torque could actually be a problem - but that hasn't been an issue for a long time now.  For all but a very rare minority with a very fast swing speed and a very late release, torque will not effect delivery.  For most ams it will only effect the feel of impact when you miss the center of the face.   For a small percentage it might effect the feel during the delivery - but it won't have a direct effect on the delivery itself.   

 

So short answer is that torque can largely be ignored by most ams.  If you like the feel of the shaft, it's definitely not going to be a problem.   If you don't like the feel of a shaft, it doesn't really matter how much of that might be the longitudinal stiffness and how much the torsional stiffness since there is no way to distinguish which one might be to blame - so just move on to a different shaft.

 

Edited May 28 by Stuart_G

[Binson]

I'd say what you're looking for isn't necessarily launch. It's peak height / descent angle + distance increase from the iron with a higher number before it.

 

To get that, you need higher ball speed.  Unless you've got Bryson clubhead speeds, it'll be really tough to get desirable height and distance on an "8-iron length" 3 iron.  There's being stubborn, and then there's physics. 
 

Edited May 28 by Binson

[Andygolderson]

10 hours ago, Binson said:

I'd say what you're looking for isn't necessarily launch. It's peak height / descent angle + distance increase from the iron with a higher number before it.

 

To get that, you need higher ball speed.  Unless you've got Bryson clubhead speeds, it'll be really tough to get desirable height and distance on an "8-iron length" 3 iron.  There's being stubborn, and then there's physics. 
 

#caseclosed. 😄

 

Thank you, perhaps indeed unachieveable at my level.

 

Let's see how my build is working, I just ordered shafts yesterday. The thing i'm feeling in 3i is too much weight. I went 10g,10g,10g in 3, 4, 5 irons and incrementally add a few grams weight additional on 3i and 4i to get them matching.

Somehow, i need 3 or 4x more additional weight on the 3 than i do the 4, so I may need to recalculate it and get the right feeling.

 

I'm getting a weird heavy knocking sound, so I can tell i'm not delivering the club well at the ball. Hopefully a different shaft and some weight management can bring it back into a swingable range, maybe pick up more speed or a cleaner strike from that.

 

I think ultimately, a fundamental problem with long one length irons as you mentioned. With all the additional head weight in the iron, it becomes more difficult to get the ball in the air (in my case).

This was why I was focussing my problem statement on launch. My shafts are designed to improve the decending angle, then again, as above, that's mostly marketting and the shaft is mostly providing feels for people.

 

The great thing with the Edels are that I can add or remove a total of 30g of weight per clubhead (plus their cavity can hold a bit more).

 

I'll first try the shaft, then check what is working in the weight.

[Andygolderson]

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

I went 105g (lighter) in the 3iron shaft (softer?) and maintained the same flex (X).

Did some aggressive tipping, which would probably not be recommended by most professionals. I took off around 2 or 2.5 inches from the tip. (mainly driven by cosmetics and OCD on my part to align the shafts to look equal) Did not notice too much additional stiffness through the swing.

 

I struggled at the range again, similar to the previous shaft. I couldn't understand how the 4 iron was performing better than the 3 when they are built the same, except for the head weight. I tried removing weight, putting it back, relocating it and couldn't really understand it.

 

After many heavy shots, I could feel my low point is much different with these irons. They come in quicker and hit behind the ball, so i would be essentially skulling it after hitting the mat, which obviously would be different on the course.

 

I set up slightly differently and added some "arm loft" and a bit of tilt to hit upward a bit more and i was hitting it very well afterwards. 

 

It defeats the concept of a single swing in theory for One Length, but the clubs remain almost matched in their design and build.

 

Noticeably better flight and good distance without any loft adjustments.

 

I guess it can be a busted myth that shaft profile will help with launch, only improving your feel on how you deliver the club.

 

to be continued if i will get any data and modify lofts or lies 🙂

 

Thanks.

[jarediogolf]

I’ve tinkered with ONE length long irons. 
Currently own a 3, 4, and 5 One utility irons (2020 version with interchangeable shafts). 
 

They came with different shafts so I’ve been able to do some testing. 
KBS tour light 80 stiff. 
KBS $ taper lite. 
Fuji Pro 95 Stiff. 
Modus 105 R. 
All launched pretty low for me. 
 

I built up an Elevate 95 stiff soft stepped twice (tipped to 5 iron specs). This is getting me nice height so far. Very pleased, and does not feel much different than the elevate 95 stiffs I have in my 6-9 iron. To me it feels more stable than KBS tour. 
 

For you, maybe try a modus 130x soft to 5 iron specs or an elevate tour 2x soft stepped. 

I’ve messed with soft stepping before in some Taylormade irons and found 1x soft step unnoticeable, but the 2x soft step to add some extra life and height. 

 

I personally like the consistency of strike and accuracy I get with single length long irons and I think it’s worth tinkering with.  But I also carry a 7 wood for times that I absolutely need height. 

[Andygolderson]

28 minutes ago, jarediogolf said:

I’ve tinkered with ONE length long irons. 
Currently own a 3, 4, and 5 One utility irons (2020 version with interchangeable shafts). 
 

They came with different shafts so I’ve been able to do some testing. 
KBS tour light 80 stiff. 
KBS $ taper lite. 
Fuji Pro 95 Stiff. 
Modus 105 R. 
All launched pretty low for me. 
 

I built up an Elevate 95 stiff soft stepped twice (tipped to 5 iron specs). This is getting me nice height so far. Very pleased, and does not feel much different than the elevate 95 stiffs I have in my 6-9 iron. To me it feels more stable than KBS tour. 
 

For you, maybe try a modus 130x soft to 5 iron specs or an elevate tour 2x soft stepped. 

I’ve messed with soft stepping before in some Taylormade irons and found 1x soft step unnoticeable, but the 2x soft step to add some extra life and height. 

 

I personally like the consistency of strike and accuracy I get with single length long irons and I think it’s worth tinkering with.  But I also carry a 7 wood for times that I absolutely need height. 

quite some tinkering 🙂

 

For the 4 iron I technically hard stepped on a soft step, as it's a 3i shaft, but I trimmed it 2 or so inches, so it beomes a hard stepped version of it's original self.

 

Compared to my other "short irons", there should still be a delta.

 

I'm playing 2x hard stepped PW in my irons from 62* to 5i.

The 4 iron becomes SS -> about 3x Hard stepped, while the 3i becomes 4x hard stepped.

 

I didn't think about that between clubs because i was not considering them as variable lengths in my mind to begin with, together with the combination of the weight balancing.

 

To my mind, I still consider my 3i and 4i to be equal from that respect.

 

My experiment was whether the 3i and Pw delta had any considerable differences in their behaviour. Not much feel difference between them at least. a true measurement probably reveals a different CPM. I could not find any specs to base it on.

 

It does not appear to affect the launch what so ever, as Stuart mentioned previously, i'm adding some static (?) loft with my setup on the 3iron.

[jarediogolf]

Are all your heads the same weight?

[Andygolderson]

yes boss. I measured them all prior to installing the shafts and i played around with combo of weights and putty.

 

Everything is referenced to my PW, with all weights removed. The 3i is difficult, because I already have the maximum weights in and needed more. Previously, i did not like the hosel fill, as i felt they were different, maybe just mental.

 

Interesting results from my round this weekend. On the course, i didn't feel the need to give any kind of help to my irons, i simply just hit them as normal and with good results. I think this is the key difference between course and range mat. i'll stop practicing long irons past 7 on the range, it's too hard panned and not reliable for a regular setup.

 

Used the 3 iron about 4 times:

• One of them flew the green from 210 yds out
• Another very sucessful punch out came out with suprising results, much further than I had planned and with good shot shape.
  • Under a tree too far out to reach 350 or so, after a flubbed drive
  • uphill blind lie, had to hook it round a bit
  • thought i lost my ball in the area i thought it landed from where i could see.
  • found the original 40yds further up to the left.

No feel difference from the over hard stepping of the long irons, feeling pretty good and so far with small sample size, also performing pretty good.