Warning someone about to commit rules infraction. Advise??

[Pfish]

In a competition I don’t think I would say anything because people should know the rules. However if I did would I be committing a rules infraction myself by giving advice? This suppose if asked I could answer because rules are public knowledge.

[bluedot]

It isn’t advice to inform someone of a rule; that’s information.  A really common example is an incorrect drop that a player is about to take; telling him the rules not only protects him, but the field.  
 

[Colin L]

 Information on the rules is not advice in terms of Rule 10.2a.  What's more, good  sportsmanship says you absolutely should let another player know in good time that he is about to breach a rule.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 03:08 PM by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, bluedot said:

It isn’t advice to inform someone of a rule; that’s information.  A really common example is an incorrect drop that a player is about to take; telling him the rules not only protects him, but the field.  
 

 

Out of curiosity, how would it protect the field if one player commits a breach and gets a penalty?

 

I'd like to think you mean that an incorrect drop would give the player unfair advantage in case not been penalized. Which seems a bit strange path of thinking if you are watching the player taking an incorrect drop.

 

Care to explain your thoughts here?

[Hawkeye77]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:00 AM, Pfish said:

In a competition I don’t think I would say anything because people should know the rules. However if I did would I be committing a rules infraction myself by giving advice? This suppose if asked I could answer because rules are public knowledge.

I’ve inquired in a competition what someone’s thought process was where it appeared he was about to take an illegal drop and it was an easy rule to apply. Seemed the right thing to do and sure didn’t want to suggest he’d lost the hole after the fact when I stood there and watched. 

[OnTheBag]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:00 AM, Pfish said:

In a competition I don’t think I would say anything because people should know the rules. However if I did would I be committing a rules infraction myself by giving advice? This suppose if asked I could answer because rules are public knowledge.

I disagree completely.  While caddying on various tours for 3+ decades, we often advised other competitors of a possible rules infraction and recommended calling for an official.  Everyone interprets things differently and it is best to ask prior to making a mistake.  This is different than a flagrant violation used to gain an advantage but that's not what your post suggest.  

[Hawkeye77]

What I can’t abide is listening to a guy or two after an event going on about someone cheating by taking improper relief when they watched and said nothing at the time or when cards were tallied and submitted. I had no doubt said person was cheating but ….. either get it sorted or report it properly. Don’t go on about playing with so and so who “cheated” after the fact having been silent. And maybe, just maybe he thought he was doing it right. 

[Mike_C]

I reminded a guy to replace his ball to the original spot on the green when he had moved his marker in match play.

 

It was in my state Am years ago, my opponent moved his mark and failed to move it back, then put his ball down and started to get ready to putt.   I just asked him if he had put it back, and he had not, so he remarked and moved it back.  I could have said nothing, and then he would have played from the wrong spot and I would have won the hole, but that didn't seem right.   Was this advising on the rules???

[davep043]

13 minutes ago, Mike_C said:

I reminded a guy to replace his ball to the original spot on the green when he had moved his marker in match play.

 

It was in my state Am years ago, my opponent moved his mark and failed to move it back, then put his ball down and started to get ready to putt.   I just asked him if he had put it back, and he had not, so he remarked and moved it back.  I could have said nothing, and then he would have played from the wrong spot and I would have won the hole, but that didn't seem right.   Was this advising on the rules???

It was discussing an application of the Rules, so its OK, and it was absolutely the right thing to do.

[Colin L]

13 minutes ago, Mike_C said:

I reminded a guy to replace his ball to the original spot on the green when he had moved his marker in match play.

 

It was in my state Am years ago, my opponent moved his mark and failed to move it back, then put his ball down and started to get ready to putt.   I just asked him if he had put it back, and he had not, so he remarked and moved it back.  I could have said nothing, and then he would have played from the wrong spot and I would have won the hole, but that didn't seem right.   Was this advising on the rules???

No, it was acting in a properly sporting way.

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, Mike_C said:

I reminded a guy to replace his ball to the original spot on the green when he had moved his marker in match play.

 

It was in my state Am years ago, my opponent moved his mark and failed to move it back, then put his ball down and started to get ready to putt.   I just asked him if he had put it back, and he had not, so he remarked and moved it back.  I could have said nothing, and then he would have played from the wrong spot and I would have won the hole, but that didn't seem right.   Was this advising on the rules???

It was not giving advice as Defined but simply giving information about the Rules.

 

 advice does not include public information, such as: the Rules.

[Mike_C]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

It was discussing an application of the Rules, so its OK, and it was absolutely the right thing to do.

I remember it like it was yesterday, and it was over 40 years ago.   It was about a 6-8 footer to tie the hole.   I was 99% sure he didn't move it back, but not 100% as I did turn my back away from him for a couple seconds, I was almost afraid to say anything.   If he told me he did move it back, I was ready to give him the putt since I disrupted his routine.   He ended up missing it.....

[Imp]

Sr Open yesterday. Billy Andrade in trap left of 13 hole.

 

Start clock here. Tick tock...

 

"I can move rocks in the bunker, right?" 

 

All other players, caddies, ... [shrug]. 

 

USGA rules official sitting in chair beside green. Deaf as a doorknob. 

 

"I can move rocks in the bunker right?" 

 

More discussion amongsplayers/caddies (even gallery was saying "yes".

 

Got the attention of the rules official .... finally.. "Huh?" [Gets out of chair, struggles to make himself onto the green which is 15 feet away] 

 

Exactly same question 10 times from various players trying to help Billy, along with Billy himself.

 

Stop clock here. *click*

 

It took about 2 minutes to clear all this up before the USGA official could understand what was being asked and gave, literally, the thumbs up. My question is... is it that they didn't know, or didn't want to obligate?

 

(FYI, it's the 4th hole on a normal day, they flipped the 9s for the tourney)

Edited Friday at 02:35 PM by Imp

[Socrates]

22 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Out of curiosity, how would it protect the field if one player commits a breach and gets a penalty?

 

I'd like to think you mean that an incorrect drop would give the player unfair advantage in case not been penalized. Which seems a bit strange path of thinking if you are watching the player taking an incorrect drop.

 

Care to explain your thoughts here?

That is how I would see it.  If they don't know they are going to break a Rule, they certainly aren't going to apply penalty strokes or even ask about it later.  If you don't say anything it may or may not impact the rest of the field. It is unfortunate that many have no basic knowledge of the Rules.

 

The OP wasn't sure if it was his place to say something or if he could.

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, Imp said:

Sr Open yesterday. Billy Andrade in trap left of 13 hole.

 

Start clock here. Tick tock...

 

"I can move rocks in the bunker, right?" 

 

 

That is really sad.

 

Next thing he will  probably ask "do I have to tee my ball behind the tee markers or can I tee it in front of them as the grass is better there?".

[AzRoger]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is really sad.

 

Next thing he will  probably ask "do I have to tee my ball behind the tee markers or can I tee it in front of them as the grass is better there?".

In fairness it was probably more habit than anything, here's someone who had played golf for ~50 years where it was illegal to remove the stone.

[cardoustie]

It’s the right thing to do to help

[Socrates]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is really sad.

 

Next thing he will  probably ask "do I have to tee my ball behind the tee markers or can I tee it in front of them as the grass is better there?".

I've said it before, it just shocks me that a person who makes their living as a Pro Golfer can't take the time to read and understand just the basic Rules that govern how they make their living.  19 simple Rules to read and it can be done in an hour or two while they are flying on a chartered flight to their next event.  Bet there are more WRXer's in this thread that have read the Rules than touring Pro's.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, AzRoger said:

In fairness it was probably more habit than anything, here's someone who had played golf for ~50 years where it was illegal to remove the stone.

 

Really? Until 2019 we had a national Local Rule in force on every course of this country that stones in bunkers are Movable Obstructions and that LR was used on various pro tours around the world. Very sensible LR for safety reasons.

[AzRoger]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Really? Until 2019 we had a national Local Rule in force on every course of this country that stones in bunkers are Movable Obstructions and that LR was used on various pro tours around the world. Very sensible LR for safety reasons.

I didn't think that was the case on the PGA Tour prior to the rule change.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

I didn't think that was the case on the PGA Tour prior to the rule change.

 

I do not know whether that was the case but there are tens or even hundreds of pro tours in this world, not just PGA Tour.

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not know whether that was the case but there are tens or even hundreds of pro tours in this world, not just PGA Tour.

In all fairness we were discussing a PGA Tour player.  On my home course we have some areas where they have rocks….roughly fist sized to foot sizes…some embedded and some not that have been placed to prevent erosion on some small hillsides on my Arizona desert course.  Local rule is you get free relief but may NOT move those rocks.

 

Feels awfully strange to me to be able to move stones in a penalty area but not the erosion preventing rocks.

[GoldenAges]

Remember Steve Scott reminding Tiger to re-mark his marker to it's original location, which Tiger had forgotten to do during the US Amateur. 

Steve Scott loses the US Ameteur because of it, but his integrity remained intact. Steve Scott will always be remembered as someone who did the right thing at the expense of his own personal gain. Golfers are different. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

In all fairness we were discussing a PGA Tour player.  

 

Yes, but I was under the impression AzRoger was referrring to his career. If not, I stand corrected.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Feels awfully strange to me to be able to move stones in a penalty area but not the erosion preventing rocks.

 

Which one of those you feel that should remain unmoved..?

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Which one of those you feel that should remain unmoved..?

I’m not one of those asking for a change.  Here in the US, and I would have thought for you as well we couldn’t remove impediments in bunkers until the fairly recent changes.
  So yes, it feels strange to be able to do something we couldn’t do for the first 50 or so years of my golf career.  Doesn’t mean I’m demanding a change of the rule.

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I’m not one of those asking for a change.  Here in the US, and I would have thought for you as well we couldn’t remove impediments in bunkers until the fairly recent changes.
 

 

That is correct with the exception of the Local Rule about stones in bunkers I mentioned earlier.

 

It was a true necessity to change the Rule about moving Loose Impediments in Penalty Areas as it was virtually impossible to draw the line. In fact, playing a ball from a former Water Hazard containing long grass and / or flowers was literally impossible without moving LIs with your backswing. Loose petals, formerly cut pieces of grass, even detached pollen, they all are Loose Impediments. A black&white Rule is in most cases the best option.

 

I believe bunkers were included in order to make the Rule uniform over the entire course. That also meant that our Local Rule was no longer an option and RBs have not yielded to reinstate it despite of many requests from various tours, national associations and individual persons. Hitting a ball leaning against a stone remains to me a health hazard which was the reason for birth of that former Local Rule. After all, stones do not belong in bunkers so it would only be fair to be able to remove them with no penalty even if it means the ball will move.

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

 

That also meant that our Local Rule was no longer an option and RBs have not yielded to reinstate it despite of many requests from various tours, national associations and individual persons. Hitting a ball leaning against a stone remains to me a health hazard which was the reason for birth of that former Local Rule. After all, stones do not belong in bunkers so it would only be fair to be able to remove them with no penalty even if it means the ball will move.

 

What did that LR say?  Why would/should it be reinstated?

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

What did that LR say?  Why would/should it be reinstated?

 

Local Rule was: "Stones in bunkers are Movable Obstructions."

 

If a ball was leaning against a stone and your ball moved when removing that stone you got no penalty and the ball had to be replaced. Today you get 1 PS.

 

As I said, it is a health hazard for the player and everybody else in the vicinity to hit a ball leaning against a stone. That was the reason for that Local Rule in the first place.

[Newby]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Local Rule was: "Stones in bunkers are Movable Obstructions."

 

If a ball was leaning against a stone and your ball moved when removing that stone you got no penalty and the ball had to be replaced. Today you get 1 PS.

 

As I said, it is a health hazard for the player and everybody else in the vicinity to hit a ball leaning against a stone. That was the reason for that Local Rule in the first place.

Doesn't 15.2a(1) give relief?

 

If a player’s ball moves while they are removing a movable obstruction:

• There is no penalty,