Sprinkler head in the rough

[Noles]

A ball lies on a sprinkler head that is only about a foot into the primary rough.  After establishing the nearest point of relief, 1 club length stretches across the first cut of rough and into the fairway.  Am I correct that the ball can be dropped in any of the 3 conditions (fairway, first cut, primary) as long as it stays within the 1 club length and is no closer to the hole?

Edited July 13 by Noles

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, Noles said:

A ball lies on a sprinkler head that is only about a foot into the primary rough.  After establishing the nearest point of relief, 1 club length stretches across the first cut of rough and into the fairway.  Am I correct that the ball can be dropped in any of the 3 conditions (fairway, first cut, primary) as long as it stays within the 1 club length and is no closer to the hole?

Yes.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Yes.

it can't get a lot simpler that that.

[LeoLeo99]

The rules make very little mention of fairway.  I was at a pro tournament when LCP was invoked and saw a player move his ball from deep rough near the green to the fringe.  Went from a tough chip to an easy putt.

[antip]

31 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

The rules make very little mention of fairway.  I was at a pro tournament when LCP was invoked and saw a player move his ball from deep rough near the green to the fringe.  Went from a tough chip to an easy putt.

If the LCP invoked was Model Local Rule E-3, this is not permitted. But if the LCP local rule permitted LCP in the general area, then this kind of outcome is permitted. RBs guide that applying LCP outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable, such as in areas of bushes or trees.

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

it can't get a lot simpler that that.

Ask a closed question - expect a yes/no answer.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

The rules make very little mention of fairway.

 

That is true. One of the few (and the only one I can remember from the top of my head) is MLR E-5.

 

Instead of fairway Rules often talk about "fairway height", like for example in the MLRs E-2 (LC&R) and E-3 (LC&P).

[Noles]

8 hours ago, rogolf said:

Ask a closed question - expect a yes/no answer.

Agreed.  I asked a yes or no question.  I was pretty certain to begin with but wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing.

 

If only my wife understood the idea of a yes or no question. 😂

Edited July 14 by Noles

[rogolf]

20 minutes ago, Noles said:

Agreed.  I asked a yes or no question.  I was pretty certain to begin with but wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing.

 

If only my wife understood the idea of a yes or no question. 😂

In problem solving, a very good way to get to the root of the problem is to ask "why" five times (Five Y's).  Never try that with your spouse.

[svlido]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is true. One of the few (and the only one I can remember from the top of my head) is MLR E-5.

 

Instead of fairway Rules often talk about "fairway height", like for example in the MLRs E-2 (LC&R) and E-3 (LC&P).

That's why they're called model.  They throw suggestions out there so you don't just have to play preferred lies, and then the committee takes it from there.  If you have an official scorecard I really like the lift clean and place within one scorecard length.  It allows you to clean the ball but not really gain any advantage in terms of altering its position.  Even if it's one club in closely mown you can really get some lucky breaks around greens.

 

I played in a state best ball a few years ago that got too much rain for the course to handle the first day and the course probably wasn't ready the second day.  There was a large field and only one rain date available that we already used.  They ran it as lift clean and REplace in the general area.  They explained what replace meant thoroughly but I've never seen so many perfect lies in the rough in my life.  

[svlido]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

In problem solving, a very good way to get to the root of the problem is to ask "why" five times (Five Y's).  Never try that with your spouse.

Good manufacturing term.  Most people call it 5 Why but it's a good root cause analysis tool.

[Colin L]

14 hours ago, svlido said:

That's why they're called model.  They throw suggestions out there so you don't just have to play preferred lies, and then the committee takes it from there.

It allows you to clean the ball but not really gain any advantage in terms of altering its position.  Even if it's one club in closely mown you can really get some lucky breaks around greens.

I'm struggling to know  what you mean by That's why they're called model.  They throw suggestions out there so you don't just have to play preferred lies, and then the committee takes it from there.   Could you explain a bit further?

 

And when you say   If you have an official scorecard I really like the lift clean and place within one scorecard length,  it sounds as if you mean having preferred lies as a  permanent local rule on a scorecard.  I hope I'm misunderstanding as that would not be true to the purpose of the MLR.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

I'm struggling to know  what you mean by That's why they're called model.  They throw suggestions out there so you don't just have to play preferred lies, and then the committee takes it from there.   Could you explain a bit further?

 

And when you say   If you have an official scorecard I really like the lift clean and place within one scorecard length,  it sounds as if you mean having preferred lies as a  permanent local rule on a scorecard.  I hope I'm misunderstanding as that would not be true to the purpose of the MLR.

I’ll try. 
 

The MLR’s are full of suggestions that a committee should try to stick to for verbiage. But the committee isn’t required to do so. 
 

He likes When “LCP within a scorecard” is used instead of a club length. As long as everyone has the same scorecard. 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I’ll try. 
 

The MLR’s are full of suggestions that a committee should try to stick to for verbiage. But the committee isn’t required to do so. 
 

He likes When “LCP within a scorecard” is used instead of a club length. As long as everyone has the same scorecard. 

 

Looks like I need to study the wordings more carefully as I have understood that the wording in MLR is binding.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I’ll try. 
 

The MLR’s are full of suggestions that a committee should try to stick to for verbiage. But the committee isn’t required to do so. 
 

He likes When “LCP within a scorecard” is used instead of a club length. As long as everyone has the same scorecard. 

 

Is "within the scorecard" a diagonal measure or the longest edge?

[sui generis]

47 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Looks like I need to study the wordings more carefully as I have understood that the wording in MLR is binding.

A Model Local Rule can either be adopted in its entirety or can serve as an example of how to write a particular type of Local Rule. But if a Committee changes the wording of a Model Local Rule to fit the particular needs of the course or competition, it needs to ensure that the changes are consistent with the stated purpose.

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

[Pleasedwith3putts]

Bob McIntyre won the Scottish Open yesterday getting free relief from a shocking lie in the rough because when he took his stance he was standing on a sprinkler head he could not even see. Dropped out, knocked it to 10 feet and holed the putt.

 

Contrast that with how you can hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and finish in a deep divot and get no relief. That remains THE worst rule in golf.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

Contrast that with how you can hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and finish in a deep divot and get no relief. That remains THE worst rule in golf.

 

OT for this topic, so…

 

Spoiler

It is not. It is perhaps the most talked about "rule" (or lack of a rule), but it's typically only seen as bad by people without a lot of Rules experience.

 

In short:

• A divot hole is not an unexpected or abnormal condition on a golf course.
• You're not guaranteed a good lie in the fairway (nor a bad lie in the rough).
• Go ahead and try to write a definition of "divot" (or "divot hole") in such a way that it could be applied the same by everyone everywhere. When does a divot hole cease to be a divot hole in the healing process?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

Bob McIntyre won the Scottish Open yesterday getting free relief from a shocking lie in the rough because when he took his stance he was standing on a sprinkler head he could not even see. Dropped out, knocked it to 10 feet and holed the putt.

 

Contrast that with how you can hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and finish in a deep divot and get no relief. That remains THE worst rule in golf.

Someone will be along to correct you - it's not a "divot", it's a "divot hole".

[Pleasedwith3putts]

37 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Someone will be along to correct you - it's not a "divot", it's a "divot hole".

I'm sure you are right. Just like how it is a green complex and not a green 🙃

[Augster]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Is "within the scorecard" a diagonal measure or the longest edge?

You lay down the scorecard and can place anywhere in that area. No closer to the hole. It’s an arc. Just like (mostly) all other relief in golf. 

[svlido]

12 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'm struggling to know  what you mean by That's why they're called model.  They throw suggestions out there so you don't just have to play preferred lies, and then the committee takes it from there.   Could you explain a bit further?

 

And when you say   If you have an official scorecard I really like the lift clean and place within one scorecard length,  it sounds as if you mean having preferred lies as a  permanent local rule on a scorecard.  I hope I'm misunderstanding as that would not be true to the purpose of the MLR.

@Augster summed it up well.  Model Local Rules are basically suggested outlines that the rules committee can adopt entirely or take parts from.

 

Official scorecard as a way to measure relief.  Tournaments usually default to one club length because it's so widely used in the rules but I think it's more equitable to make the relief area the length of the official scorecard.  

 

Tournaments/leagues/associations will have what's called a hard card if they have what are essentially permanent local rules.  For example the PGA Tour hard card that applies to all their events outline temporary immovable obstructions, players & caddies riding in carts and other things that you will find at a tour event that you wouldn't necessarily encounter day to day off the tour.  

[svlido]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Looks like I need to study the wordings more carefully as I have understood that the wording in MLR is binding.

See the USGA link @sui generis provided.  It's the first sentence.

[svlido]

1 hour ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

I'm sure you are right. Just like how it is a green complex and not a green 🙃

Technically from a rules standpoint it is "putting green".  

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, sui generis said:

A Model Local Rule can either be adopted in its entirety or can serve as an example of how to write a particular type of Local Rule. But if a Committee changes the wording of a Model Local Rule to fit the particular needs of the course or competition, it needs to ensure that the changes are consistent with the stated purpose.

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

 

It seems I had the latter sentence in mind, that is, the content and coverage are not to be changed.

 

Thanks, Sui.

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, Augster said:

You lay down the scorecard and can place anywhere in that area. No closer to the hole. It’s an arc. Just like (mostly) all other relief in golf. 

 

A score card is a rectangular. A rectangular has a longer side and a shorter side. The diagonal measure of a rectangular is longer than either of the sides.

 

My question was whether the diagonal measure was allowed or not. When I write a LR I always define the distance to be the longer side of an opened score card, just for simplicity.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

A score card is a rectangular. A rectangular has a longer side and a shorter side. The diagonal measure of a rectangular is longer than either of the sides.

 

My question was whether the diagonal measure was allowed or not. When I write a LR I always define the distance to be the longer side of an opened score card, just for simplicity.

I had the impression that in the US 1 clublength was the norm and virtually everywhere else it was 6  inches (eg CONGU). The occasional course uses the long side of the card.

 

But some cards have got smaller (to save the earth) and others have got bigger (to accommodate sponsors adverts and to make space for properly worded local rules).

[Augster]

Long side, short side, diagonal, it’s all the same. Lay down one corner of the scorecard where the ball is, then arc it around to behind the ball, like a compass. Then put the other corner the other direction and arc it to behind the ball. All of that area is the “place within a scorecard”. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I had the impression that in the US 1 clublength was the norm and virtually everywhere else it was 6  inches (eg CONGU). The occasional course uses the long side of the card.

 

But some cards have got smaller (to save the earth) and others have got bigger (to accommodate sponsors adverts and to make space for properly worded local rules).

 

Whenever possible we try to limit the LC&P to 15 cm. It has been noticed that the longer the limit more time is used. Thus 1 cl is more time consuming than 15 cm or 30 cm.

[Newby]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Whenever possible we try to limit the LC&P to 15 cm. It has been noticed that the longer the limit more time is used. Thus 1 cl is more time consuming than 15 cm or 30 cm.

Near as d****t to 6"