Grinding a wedge!!!!

[Wardonation]

I have been trying to contact you?? I am looking for someone that can replicate my grind on my wedge for me? I am not particular to any brand per say, just need the grind correct. Can you help me out???

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1406865167' post='9829897']
Finish with torch black oxide.

Here is the recent work with custom engraving and flame oxide finish.

Again, this is not for look only, this is for tight course condition and a better striker players. Not an easy grind to make it perform correctly.

Joe
[/quote]

I dont know what you call that fellow, but i use the name MID grind as name on them i take away some trailing edge on the MID, typical Gab wedges who shall play both as a #11 iron to full swing, and as a wedges for partials both open and square.

Lately i have done a few with a more V shaped grind at mid to make bounce more progressive, or less "in action" on full shots, and it works nice, and adjust well on all surfaces. The head is Scratch 8620 53 DD (14 static bounce) with my V shaped MID grind and blunted leading edge.

[attachment=2370361:20140707_111009.jpg]
Same head from another angle (im no good taking photos)
[attachment=2370409:20140707_110825.jpg]

3 different PM grinds made the same day
[attachment=2370367:20140707_111250.jpg]

[joey3108]

Lots of low bounce grinds style out there, people just need to be critical with their skill level and type of course they play!

Coming back from Scotland and played all those courses, I can see a low bounce LW with C grind with Pre worn spot in the middle would be perfect for those firm tight FW and yet the sand kind of soft and smaller grain. Lots of time in wet condition too. Now I know, I just wish i brought a couple set of wedges there.

Joe

[cgorman0]

[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1141539194' post='136224']
Some of you guys asked me before if i could show you guys a step by step process.

Be aware that operating your tool without caution may give you a severe injury.

It looks very easy but if you never tried it, you will never know how hard it is to make them perfect.
wo!
Hope this is help some of your questions.

Joe
[attachment=29343:attachment]Marking and planning!
[attachment=29344:attachment]Start slowly on the area that need grinding the most to have some room for mistakes or a slip. Slow but sure is my best advice
[attachment=29345:attachment]Keep going up slowly and feel your movement along the marking line and the corner area, apply pressure as necessary.
[attachment=29346:attachment]Keep checking on your weight on how far you are going.
[attachment=29347:attachment]Rough finish product.
[attachment=29348:attachment]Flap wheel finishing.
[attachment=29349:attachment]Check your finish product!
[/quote]

[cgorman0]

Looks really good.. I did this to one of my clubs and it turned out great! Noticed the difference immediately

[pappaf2]

Is there any problem with doing some grinding on the front edge of a wedge too take it from a very rounded leading edge to a more straight or less rounded leading edge?

 

I borrowed this picture of this acer xb wedge from mihi4 on here. The leading edge is extremely rounded and IMO would look better if it was straighter. Besides for having to add some weight back, are there any issues with grinding some of that away?

 

[Howard_Jones]

Is there any problem with doing some grinding on the front edge of a wedge too take it from a very rounded leading edge to a more straight or less rounded leading edge?

 

I borrowed this picture of this acer xb wedge from mihi4 on here. The leading edge is extremely rounded and IMO would look better if it was straighter. Besides for having to add some weight back, are there any issues with grinding some of that away?

 

 

If you just scroll up to post #303 you will see that all those heads got a leading edge grind (and other grinds), but leading edge grind is the most common i make, so just go ahead and have it done.

[nilopol]

All these grinds look great. Does anyone know if the ping eye 2 xg/gorge lob wedges can be ground. I really like the shape and bounce on the sole of the old eye 2 + wedges and notice that the newer re release version is that of the original eye 2. Anyone know if the new version can be ground in such a way? Thanks

[Golfrnut]

Of course it's sunny out today, but the wind has to blow and ruin a perfectly good day for golf...so it's probably a good day to tinker.

Howard,

How hard do you find the U grinds(your center sole V cuts) to create? I'm weighing the option of adding one to a C grind 58* that I have.

[Howard_Jones]

Start by finding MID face, and draw a line from leading edge to trailing edge, so you have the center.
Then go slow, VERY slow. My version is a copy/evo model of Scratch. They only make a releif at the leading edge itself, but i extend it into the sole with a V shape, so there is negative bounce on about half the sole on the mid section. The actual sole left at the mid section is similar to a players blade, so its perfect on hard surface for full shots

[Golfrnut]

Sorry Howard,

I was looking your photos, and I knew something between what you and I were saying didn't seem right.

I realize now that your V grind is not what I was looking at. I was thinking about your PM grinds you have the photos of. I have some Cally C grinds and am thinking about adding the channel to give it a combination C and U grind...basically a PM grind. In terms of scratch, the PWE grind? Just not sure what's the best way to go about doing that as far as measurements go.

[Howard_Jones]

OK, no problemo, its easy (IMO) to make that one, but a common error is making it to deep, then we reduce the effect of it, so try to keep it wide and not very deep.

This grind was originally made by Bob Vokey for Phil Michelson, (P grind), and when he started to play Callaway, Roger Cleveland made another version called PM Grind, so take a look on the sole on the latest Callaway version if you want large heel and toe releif.

When you start from a C-Grind, you most likely dont need more releif, but how would i know?

[NevadaGolfGuy]

When your doing a grind like that you going for surface area to create the higher effective bounce which is what I think Howard is talking about when he's talking about depth. If you make it to steep or take the depth to far in you won't really be getting the effect your after.[attachment=2617811:20150105_202749.jpg]

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1423942744' post='10953029']
OK, no problemo, its easy (IMO) to make that one, but a common error is making it to deep, then we reduce the effect of it, so try to keep it wide and not very deep.

This grind was originally made by Bob Vokey for Phil Michelson, (P grind), and when he started to play Callaway, Roger Cleveland made another version called PM Grind, so take a look on the sole on the latest Callaway version if you want large heel and toe releif.

When you start from a C-Grind, you most likely dont need more releif, but how would i know?
[/quote]


Well, feel free to tell me my thought process is off if I am thinking this has the wrong effect.

I was playing the sweeper grinds prior to moving over to the Jaws with the C. Because I don't have an unlimited number of choices on grinds/bounces, I went with the C with 13* of bounce. Works well and like the grind a lot. Only drawback is I would like to be able to get the leading edge a little lower on a square face but be able to not loose the effective bounce of the club. Is my thought process right in saying that this would be the grind to go with for that effect?

In a perfect world, I think I would probably have a P grind(U as they call it now), half a C grind leaving some more out on the tow, and a bit of a leading edge relief. But, I don't have a guy grinding wedges for me and that might turn out to be a big mess anyway.

And yes, saw the new wedge, which is what kind of pushed me in that direction.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1423959572' post='10954579']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1423942744' post='10953029']
OK, no problemo, its easy (IMO) to make that one, but a common error is making it to deep, then we reduce the effect of it, so try to keep it wide and not very deep.

This grind was originally made by Bob Vokey for Phil Michelson, (P grind), and when he started to play Callaway, Roger Cleveland made another version called PM Grind, so take a look on the sole on the latest Callaway version if you want large heel and toe releif.

When you start from a C-Grind, you most likely dont need more releif, but how would i know?
[/quote]


Well, feel free to tell me my thought process is off if I am thinking this has the wrong effect.

I was playing the sweeper grinds prior to moving over to the Jaws with the C. Because I don't have an unlimited number of choices on grinds/bounces, I went with the C with 13* of bounce. Works well and like the grind a lot. Only drawback is I would like to be able to get the leading edge a little lower on a square face but be able to not loose the effective bounce of the club. Is my thought process right in saying that this would be the grind to go with for that effect?

In a perfect world, I think I would probably have a P grind(U as they call it now), half a C grind leaving some more out on the tow, and a bit of a leading edge relief. But, I don't have a guy grinding wedges for me and that might turn out to be a big mess anyway.

And yes, saw the new wedge, which is what kind of pushed me in that direction.
[/quote]

For short NO, the P channel does nothing to leading edge height at address, that needs a Heel and Tralinge edge grind, or a Bounce grind where we simply take down static bounce on the hole sole. It sounds like you have to much sole wide LE, to TE vs static bounce, so thats where you should attack the problem. Just remember that if you take more off Trailingedge, and reduce sole area by that, it will go deeper in sand, so maybe a Bounce grind is the way to go for you so you can leave the sole area as it is.

If you decide to go further, and make excessive releif to traling edge to lower LE at address, then adding the P channel will take back some of the effect you are losing by the lower sole area.

[joey3108]

Actually the idea of P grind on phil's wedges are coming from his worn out ping eye LW that he used through college that he played it so much and lots of practice from the bunker.

I've seen so many back in the day Cleveland 588 was so popular, lots of them worn out with cave in/worn out spot on the sole right on the Cleveland lettering from lots of used, especially bunker shots. Lots of my customers back in the day asked me to grind their new wedge to mimick the cave in spot from their old one. This grind is tricky to get the right angle for the right result and feel...especially if you have to minimize the weight lost from this grind. I, myself have a becu 588 from the tour with worn out spot from hitting way to many balls back in the day and kept on getting a new one with similar grind.....until one day I couldn't get anymore replacement.

My2cents!

Joe

[AndyP]

Very interesting thread.

I came to the realization that I have bought the wrong wedges late last year, ie, the wrong bounce for my course and for my style of swing - doh!

I'm a sweeper, and my home course is in the England and has quite tight fairways/lies. I'm a 18 handicapper, coming down fast from 24. Will be 16 I think after 40 points in yesterdays club competition - been reading lots of golf books which have improved my mindset, shot making & strategy (Penick's LRB; Hogan's 5 Fundies; Pelz's two bibles; just starting 4 Rotella books; plus others), as well as buying some wedges which have given me confidence (and added 65g of lead tape to the bottom of my old Ping Karsten Zing 2i Isopur putter and the 15g that was left at the top of the new Supersoft grip - what a revalation having a heavy putter and finally feeling the pendulum!).

My wedges are off the rack Cleveland's:

588 RTX 52° (Silver) 10 ° bounce
588 RTX 54° (Black) 12 ° bounce
588 CG15 Tour (Black) 56° 14 ° bounce
588 CG15 Tour (Black) 60° 12 ° bounce

I think I have too much bounce/effective bouce and fancy grinding some off, and/or modifying them so there is much less effective bounce (as I tend to thin/skull when opening the face).

I've gone and bought this grinder hoping it will do the job: [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-05096-Grinder-Sanding-Worklight/dp/B005A57BAC/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1426499268&sr=1-1&keywords=Draper+05096+150mm+370W+230V+Bench+Grinder+with+Sanding+Belt+and+Worklight"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-05096-Grinder-Sanding-Worklight/dp/B005A57BAC/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1426499268&sr=1-1&keywords=Draper+05096+150mm+370W+230V+Bench+Grinder+with+Sanding+Belt+and+Worklight[/url]

Any initial thoughts?

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='AndyP' timestamp='1426499544' post='11151717']
Very interesting thread.

I came to the realization that I have bought the wrong wedges late last year, ie, the wrong bounce for my course and for my style of swing - doh!

I'm a sweeper, and my home course is in the England and has quite tight fairways/lies. I'm a 18 handicapper, coming down fast from 24. Will be 16 I think after 40 points in yesterdays club competition - been reading lots of golf books which have improved my mindset, shot making & strategy (Penick's LRB; Hogan's 5 Fundies; Pelz's two bibles; just starting 4 Rotella books; plus others), as well as buying some wedges which have given me confidence (and added 65g of lead tape to the bottom of my old Ping Karsten Zing 2i Isopur putter and the 15g that was left at the top of the new Supersoft grip - what a revalation having a heavy putter and finally feeling the pendulum!).

My wedges are off the rack Cleveland's:

588 RTX 52° (Silver) 10 ° bounce
588 RTX 54° (Black) 12 ° bounce
588 CG15 Tour (Black) 56° 14 ° bounce
588 CG15 Tour (Black) 60° 12 ° bounce

I think I have too much bounce/effective bouce and fancy grinding some off, and/or modifying them so there is much less effective bounce (as I tend to thin/skull when opening the face).

I've gone and bought this grinder hoping it will do the job: [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-05096-Grinder-Sanding-Worklight/dp/B005A57BAC/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1426499268&sr=1-1&keywords=Draper+05096+150mm+370W+230V+Bench+Grinder+with+Sanding+Belt+and+Worklight"]http://www.amazon.co...t and Worklight[/url]

Any initial thoughts?
[/quote]

With all due respect Andy, a grind isn't going to make you a shotmaker at your course. This is my first post in this thread, and I know its serious business about grinds, and whatnot, but I would urge you not to take a grinder to your wedges yet. I am not sure how often you play, or how serious you are, but being off 16, I would urge you to learn to hit multiple shots with your wedges in a fundamentally sound way.

When you realize you are starting to outperform your wedge, and realize that you have the ability to hit shots that your grind is making more difficult, then think about it. Most grinds are a tradeoff in some way, more effective in some areas, than others. Until then, I might find a few used wedges on the cheap with different grinds and experiment with them, unless you dont mind taking on creating a grind that you may find to be nearly uunusable in some situations. The vast majority of wedges sold retail, and off the rack have plenty of the most versatile options for most golfers.

If you want to put them on the grinder and have fun, then of course, thats your choice as well and could be more fun than going through the toil I mentioned above.

[AndyP]

Thanks or the reply Nile Miler.

I play twice a week while working, and 5-6 times a week when not working. I'm a bit of a golf nut and have got very serious about it since June last year (after a 14 year gap. Was down to 11.6 back in the day within a couple years of taking up golf. I was 24.0 in October, just been notified 17.2 now).

What got me thinking about my grinds being wrong was Pelz's Short Game Bible; what he recommends; and what happens when the bounce (and more importantly, effective bounce) is not right in certain conditions - I had a lightbulb moment - I feel my effective bounce is way too high for my course conditions & sweeping swing.

You're advice on learning to hit multiple shots is taken on board, so I'll hold off grinding while I practice those shots (7.30pm , 9pm, 10.30pm and full, etc).

[Nine Miler]

[quote name='AndyP' timestamp='1426520944' post='11153229']
Thanks or the reply Nile Miler.

I play twice a week while working, and 5-6 times a week when not working. I'm a bit of a golf nut and have got very serious about it since June last year (after a 14 year gap. Was down to 11.6 back in the day within a couple years of taking up golf. I was 24.0 in October, just been notified 17.2 now).

What got me thinking about my grinds being wrong was Pelz's Short Game Bible; what he recommends; and what happens when the bounce (and more importantly, effective bounce) is not right in certain conditions - I had a lightbulb moment - I feel my effective bounce is way too high for my course conditions & sweeping swing.

You're advice on learning to hit multiple shots is taken on board, so I'll hold off grinding while I practice those shots (7.30pm , 9pm, 10.30pm and full, etc).
[/quote]

Hey Andy, no problem. I get it, obviously there are some benchmarks, like lower bounce for firmer conditions, etc. What I had in mind when I was talking about manipulating the face was more regarding short pitches around the green, say inside of 50 yards, from the fairway, rough, sand, etc.

The best way for me to explain this I guess is to imagine an uphill pitch to a back pin, you may deloft, and toe in the wedge to get it to skip and then roll. Now, imagine a pitch to a middleish flag over a ridge- you might want to use the bounce a bit, playing the ball slightly in the heel of the face to achieve a shot that pitches in the ridge, pops up and spins once its on top... that sort of thing.

You may have a gnarly lie in the rough, just beyond the collar, when the ball is sitting down. Maybe your preference for a shot this distance is a bump and run with a 9 iron, but the lie won't let you get the club cleanly on it and you want a heavier head to pop the ball out. In that case, you may stand closer to the ball, with the shaft quite upright using the rounded edge of the sole on the toe side of the club to pop down on the ball and get it in and out of the rough quickly.

Standard 6-9 type swing shots you should be able to perform in most cases by simply being aware of your weight distribution and ball position.

[freddy1682]

Hey Joe. Kind of off topic, but would it be possible to reshape a set of irons to a squarer toe? I've got a few sets with rounder toes and I like the square look. Ideally like this set of Yoro's.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1150163-mizuno-mp-64-yoro-square-toe-custom-3-9-1600-obo/

[AndyP]

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1426521965' post='11153321']
Hey Andy, no problem. I get it, obviously there are some benchmarks, like lower bounce for firmer conditions, etc. What I had in mind when I was talking about manipulating the face was more regarding short pitches around the green, say inside of 50 yards, from the fairway, rough, sand, etc.[/quote]

Ah, I think I understand you now.
I don't open the face on any clubs outside a bunker. I only open the face of a club in a bunker.
I am finding I can chunk/thin my wedges [54/56/60] when I'm on the tight-lies fairways at my course [52 less so]. Face is square, but I think having 12-14 degrees of bounce [54/56/60] is too much for my fairways. The 52 give less issues, but still some.
Even in the bunkers, I'm skulling a lot. They've got heavy often wet sand/earth in them.

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1426521965' post='11153321']
The best way for me to explain this I guess is to imagine an uphill pitch to a back pin, you may deloft, and toe in the wedge to get it to skip and then roll. Now, imagine a pitch to a middleish flag over a ridge- you might want to use the bounce a bit, playing the ball slightly in the heel of the face to achieve a shot that pitches in the ridge, pops up and spins once its on top... that sort of thing.[/quote]

I'm not up to that level yet. I use the length of my backswing to modify the distance of a full shot atm, always trying to hit the shot in the middle of the face. I will try those though in the practice aream thanks

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1426521965' post='11153321']You may have a gnarly lie in the rough, just beyond the collar, when the ball is sitting down. Maybe your preference for a shot this distance is a bump and run with a 9 iron, but the lie won't let you get the club cleanly on it and you want a heavier head to pop the ball out. In that case, you may stand closer to the ball, with the shaft quite upright using the rounded edge of the sole on the toe side of the club to pop down on the ball and get it in and out of the rough quickly.[/quote]

In that case, I would grip down on the club to make a steeper swing and swing a bit harder than usual (but only up to a 10pm backswing max for balance, else take a lower lofted club up to max 10pm), and have the ball slightly further back in my stance.

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1426521965' post='11153321']Standard 6-9 type swing shots you should be able to perform in most cases by simply being aware of your weight distribution and ball position.
[/quote]

Yup. I don't open/close the face (or try not to) on those shots.

As you've said and as I've read, I think I need low bounce because of the firm conditions at my course [it gets very, very firm in the summer] which is compounded by my sweeper swing. Which makes me think I need to take some bounce/effective bounce off some of my wedges [588 RTX 52° (Silver) 10 ° bounce; 588 RTX 54° (Black) 12 ° bounce; 588 CG15 Tour (Black) 56° 14 ° bounce; 588 CG15 Tour (Black) 60° 12 ° bounce].
As I have quite a few wedges in my bag (also a PW [46°] which is part of my iron set - Cleveland CG7 Black Pearl) - so 5 in total.
The PW is ok, and I think so is the 52°/10°. The 56°/14° I'd leave alone too for when the sand gets less wet/more fluffier. That leaves the 54°/12° and 60°/12° to muck about with/reconfigure.

[CBRADGO]

Thinking of grinding my 58K to a homegrown J grind. I have a industrial grinding stone on a big bench grinder here at work. Think it will work or do I need the belt setup?

[tbear1123]

[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1141539194' post='136224']Some of you guys asked me before if i could show you guys a step by step process.

Be aware that operating your tool without caution may give you a severe injury[/quote]


Joe,

Any chance of getting some advice on what I could have done better with this wedge?

Also.. Which arm attachment would be best to buy in the future?
Thanks!!
[attachment=2760848:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877057.143186.jpg]
[attachment=2760850:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877070.493520.jpg][attachment=2760852:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877082.577355.jpg]

[veebs007x]

[attachment=2813790:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1434691297.884900.jpg][attachment=2813792:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1434691353.184611.jpg][attachment=2813794:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1434691368.234526.jpg][attachment=2813796:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1434691387.267294.jpg]

[joey3108]

[quote name='freddy1682' timestamp='1426524495' post='11153593']
Hey Joe. Kind of off topic, but would it be possible to reshape a set of irons to a squarer toe? I've got a few sets with rounder toes and I like the square look. Ideally like this set of Yoro's.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1150163-mizuno-mp-64-yoro-square-toe-custom-3-9-1600-obo/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...m-3-9-1600-obo/[/url]
[/quote]Yes, So many of them i or someone posted my work here in the past!

Its easy to do only 1 or 2 wedges...Not as easy to have the right head shape blent for the whole set. Make sure you find a guy know what the hell they are doing on this whole set grind.

[joey3108]

[quote name='tbear1123' timestamp='1431877088' post='11573586']
[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1141539194' post='136224']Some of you guys asked me before if i could show you guys a step by step process.

Be aware that operating your tool without caution may give you a severe injury[/quote]


Joe,

Any chance of getting some advice on what I could have done better with this wedge?

Also.. Which arm attachment would be best to buy in the future?
Thanks!!
[attachment=2760848:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877057.143186.jpg]
[attachment=2760850:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877070.493520.jpg][attachment=2760852:ImageUploadedByGolfWRX Mobile1431877082.577355.jpg]
[/quote]2 inch attachment should work well.

I'm not sure how to answer your questions here. It seems you need to read some more from the 1st page. So you gonna have to learn how to manuver your hand and the P grind a bit off line in relation to the leading edge.

Joe

[im-dat-nice]

Nice write up, going to give this a try.

[jeggolfer68]

Just a note of caution. Know the material you are grinding. Some clubs have "be cu" marked on them. I think that is berillium copper. Not positive, but that material may be toxic. Also a grinder looks pretty tame. It is not. Always advisable to not wear gloves near a grinder. The wheel can easily pull your hand in if not careful. In this case however, that wedge probably heats up very quickly.

[LYG]

Joe Kwok is A-M-A-Z-A-Z-I-N-G.

 

He's built two sets of clubs for me ("blue printing etc.) and is the best in the business.

 

Good luck with your wedge game. It will improve with Joe on your team.

 

Lawson