Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840740' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:04 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840731' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:55 AM'][quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

[b]Eventually you start scratching your head.[/b]
[/quote]

And I think the head scratching is starting in a big way. In recent years there have been Tour putters that were eventually made as OTR. The C-5 became the Detour. The Studio Select and Button Backs were originally Tour only and later became OTR. Same with the Kombi.

By Scotty's own admission, there is NO difference in the materials or quality of Tour and OTR versions of the same putter. It's just the engraving or hand stamping and paintfill. If you want to pay an extra $2,000 for a CT stamp, then go right ahead.

If you pay $2,400 for a Tour putter, then it comes to retail at $300, you can't help but scratch your head.

There's already people scratching their heads about the upcoming Honey Dipped series. Some thought that finish would be a tour only finish, but it looks like it's coming to retail.

Kevin

[/quote]

Exactly...

Again, call me a tweener or whatever you want. I like my OTR SC putter. I got a Neon Green Custom shop cover (slightly used) because I really liked the look. Also bought a pivot tool for me (and 1 for dad). I like his stuff. Feel, look and quality all on the up and up.

But you drilled it. The SAME putter with a stamp costs $2000 more. And I guess that's part of the argument... Is it really the same putter???

BTW... just say an ebay listing for Circle T weights, $300 for the pair. LOL!

[jick]

This thread already has close to 40,000 views. That is probably more than the Cameron dedicated forums have. The people reading this thread are industry insiders, and rival puttermakers. I won't even be surprised if Cameron himself is made aware of this.

With all the mileage this thread is getting (and this forum too), you can rest assured that this will have a telling effect on values of Cameron putters. Now people are doubting as to whether the quantities of limited editions are as scarce as they supposed to be. They are now made aware of Cameron's revisionist history, such as pulling his very own comparison of GSS to SSS, or his modifying entries in his registry for favored clients, and other questionable practices.

Over the pages of this thread, I have posted excerpts from his interviews at various points of his career. All I can say is that he is clearly an egotistical fellow.

-He claims to improve on the designs of Mills and Karsten.

-He feels many are jealous at him.

-He seeks thank-yous from other puttermakers because he feels he paved the way.

-He prices his putters high because he believes people will have more faith in a product they paid a higher price for.

As I have said in many posts previously, we should always try to follow Cameron's train of thought if we are to understand him. But it is truly a difficult train of thought to follow because only Cameron thinks that way -- that people are jealous of him, that he paved the way for today's puttermakers, and that he is improving on Karsten and Mills.

Questionable marketing practices, ambiguous statements about quantities products, and his massive ego and high-handedness --- surely it would be hard to separate the person from the product, and Cameron is losing a lot of old fans and hardly gaining any new ones.

The fall is truly upon us now.

[tpariff]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840762' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:16 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840740' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:04 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840731' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:55 AM'][quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

[b]Eventually you start scratching your head.[/b]
[/quote]

And I think the head scratching is starting in a big way. In recent years there have been Tour putters that were eventually made as OTR. The C-5 became the Detour. The Studio Select and Button Backs were originally Tour only and later became OTR. Same with the Kombi.

By Scotty's own admission, there is NO difference in the materials or quality of Tour and OTR versions of the same putter. It's just the engraving or hand stamping and paintfill. If you want to pay an extra $2,000 for a CT stamp, then go right ahead.

If you pay $2,400 for a Tour putter, then it comes to retail at $300, you can't help but scratch your head.

There's already people scratching their heads about the upcoming Honey Dipped series. Some thought that finish would be a tour only finish, but it looks like it's coming to retail.

Kevin

[/quote]

Exactly...

Again, call me a tweener or whatever you want. I like my OTR SC putter. I got a Neon Green Custom shop cover (slightly used) because I really liked the look. Also bought a pivot tool for me (and 1 for dad). I like his stuff. Feel, look and quality all on the up and up.

But you drilled it. The SAME putter with a stamp costs $2000 more. [b]And I guess that's part of the argument... Is it really the same putter???[/b]

BTW... just say an ebay listing for Circle T weights, $300 for the pair. LOL!
[/quote]

I can't remember if it was a Garage Talk question or something from a blog, but there is a quote from Scotty stating that Tour and OTR versions of the same putter ARE made of the same materials with the same quality. It has been discussed at TCC.

I'll have to do some research and find the quote.

I'm with you. If someone wants to spend their hard earned $2,400 on a Tour putter to get that CT stamp, then it's their prerogative. They earned the money, so they can spend it as they choose. But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.

Kevin

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840749' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:11 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840731' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:55 AM'][quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

Eventually you start scratching your head.
[/quote]

+1 I wouldn't pay $1500 for a Circle T stamp, or $2500 for Byron's Damascus. But if some people like that stuff I have no problem with them buying it or manufacturers making it.
[/quote]

Absolutely true. And you will never make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. And of course, to each their own.

That's the problem with collecting. Take baseball cards for example. Before all the steroid issues, some of those Bonds/McGuire/Canseco cards were worth quite a bit of money and people paid quite a bit of money to acquire them. Now, they are almost worthless.

Now, this example might not be the best to relate to collecting putters, but I think you get the idea. The "bubble" can burst and you can be left with a lot of worthless stuff.

[biscuity]

[quote name='Redman' post='1840577' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:41 AM']Biscuit you have supplied nothing at all in the way of proof. All you have supplied are possibilities you have pulled out of your rear. How about for once you supply some/any evidence at all. Can you do that?[/quote]


Funny thing about proof/evidence.

Someone here posted an accusational "story" about how Scotty screwed Rick Cooper, his "father figure", and caused him to mortgage his house and "die a poor man".

So I checked out the story, found Rick Cooper's contact information, and called his business to confirm that it was the same Rick Cooper who has worked with Cameron/Callaway/Ray Cook in the golf industry. His wife said he's alive and well, and has been in business for the past 28 years. So I posted the [b]fact[/b] that Rick Cooper is neither dead nor a poor man. See post #565 on page 15, with a link to Rick Cooper's machining business in San Marcos, CA and information on the estimated annual sales of his company.

Not a single comment or apology from the Scotty Haters. And they'll probably continue to use the same story over and over again, even though they know the truth.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840781' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:24 AM']Absolutely true. And you will never make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. And of course, to each their own.

That's the problem with collecting. Take baseball cards for example. Before all the steroid issues, some of those Bonds/McGuire/Canseco cards were worth quite a bit of money and people paid quite a bit of money to acquire them. Now, they are almost worthless.

Now, this example might not be the best to relate to collecting putters, but I think you get the idea. The "bubble" can burst and you can be left with a lot of worthless stuff.[/quote]

Yes, just look at the MacGregor persimmon wood market. Many people have some great classic 1950s MacGregor drivers gathering dust because they are worth a fraction of what was originally spent on them.

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?

[tpariff]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.

[biscuity]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]


Exact same page and I almost typed "merry-go-round" in my last post

For whatever reason, maybe i'm just slightly sick in the head, but I get such a kick in the head to see guys who spent over $2k on a full setup but can't break 100. It's the artist, not the tools.

[tpariff]

Biscuity, it would be an interesting experiment to see how many "collectors" (i.e. people who really like the stuff) would sell their collections if they knew the market would tank in 6-12 months like it did with Beanie Babies. I'm not saying it will happen, but it would be interesting to see the results.

Kevin

[biscuity]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:39 AM']there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.[/quote]


No doubt, a stamp isn't going to make a 25 handicapper shoot lower scores. But as you get better in golf, it's common for "confidence" to play a larger role in your ability to score. If my driver was giving me troubles, it would give me confidence if my buddy let me borrow one that was exactly the same but was "hot" because he'd been driving great with it.

Same thing with superstition, it's a big part of many Pro's daily routines, but I doubt many 25 handicappers are the same way.

[psd]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]

Awhile ago, I held two "exact" OTR 33" NP2 Studio Selects side-by-side. Then I putted with each for 15 or 20 minutes. I eye-balled each again and then selected one over the other and bought it. That may seem wacky, but I ended up buying the one that fit my eye and "felt" better to me.

I know what you guys are getting at, but even when there is no discernable difference between two objects, really there is. I'm going to see my psychiatrist now...

The tour putters clearly have a coolness factor. That is undeniable.

[stage1350]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]

Very well. Let's assume that you're correct and that I'm not. Then why would it matter if there's a XX page thread bashing Cameron? Why would anyone care if a $40,000 offer was turned down. Why does everyone talk about the "profit" they make flipping the Club Cameron releases? Why is it that you can't go three days on GolfWRX without someone posting a "I just got XXXX. What's it worth?" thread.

If it wasn't about the money, nobody would really care if there are or aren't 8 Minis. A quantity that small means that very few collections will ever have one. If it wasn't about the money, people would never discuss resale value. If it wasn't about the money, people would be giddy about getting a 1/10 headcover in the lottery. Yet, ironically, the distributors ALWAYS get a 1/10 cover to put up for sale and more often than not, that lucky guy puts it on eBay to flip.

You may think it's a small percentage. We are definitely going to disagree on that part. More often than not, you can't go into ANY Cameron thread without a discussion of "value" "investment" or "flipping" entering the conversation. I think the problem is greater than you think.

And, if anything, it really does detract from the truly passionate Cameron collectors that do have impressive collections. Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top is one well known collector and the stories that I've heard is that he's got some really cool stuff. But somehow, I don't think he talks about resale value.

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]
Case in point, my teammate and professor took two Medical Equipment reps to play golf. My Buddy said they were having lunch at the turn when one of the reps noticed my buddie studio newport headcover and said, "Hey i have a cameron too, not sure what it is, it was given to me by my boss" My buddy goes over to check it out, CT 009 Twistneck He then tells me how the guy proceeds to card a 114

[easyyy]

3,2,1

This thread is bringing the negative meter to an all time high. We are thinking of locking her up.

[biscuity]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1840868' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:59 AM']Very well. Let's assume that you're correct and that I'm not. Then why would it matter if there's a XX page thread bashing Cameron? Why would anyone care if a $40,000 offer was turned down. Why does everyone talk about the "profit" they make flipping the Club Cameron releases? Why is it that you can't go three days on GolfWRX without someone posting a "I just got XXXX. What's it worth?" thread.

If it wasn't about the money, nobody would really care if there are or aren't 8 Minis. A quantity that small means that very few collections will ever have one. If it wasn't about the money, people would never discuss resale value. If it wasn't about the money, people would be giddy about getting a 1/10 headcover in the lottery. Yet, ironically, the distributors ALWAYS get a 1/10 cover to put up for sale and more often than not, that lucky guy puts it on eBay to flip.

You may think it's a small percentage. We are definitely going to disagree on that part. More often than not, you can't go into ANY Cameron thread without a discussion of "value" "investment" or "flipping" entering the conversation. I think the problem is greater than you think.

And, if anything, it really does detract from the truly passionate Cameron collectors that do have impressive collections. Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top is one well known collector and the stories that I've heard is that he's got some really cool stuff. But somehow, I don't think he talks about resale value. [/quote]

Unfortunately our economy is based on $$$ and perceived value. That's why people talk a lot about Tiger's contract with Nike, A-Rods salary, Jerry Seinfeld's $85million that he made last year mostly on re-run royalties etc.

Using Billy Gibbons as an example, his replica guitar goes for $25,000 with COA

"The Billy Gibbons Pearly Gates with photo print signed/framed, COA in Pearloid with black stamped lettering, case sock with signature and Pearl Gates printed on front, case lid with silk screened signature has an MSRP of $25,882 USD."

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1840904' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:14 PM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]
Case in point, my teammate and professor took to Medical Equipment reps to play golf. My Buddy said they were having lunch at the turn when one of the reps noticed my buddie studio newport headcover and said, "Hey i have a cameron too, not sure what it is, it was given to me by my boss" My buddy goes over to check it out, CT 009 Twistneck He then tells me how the guy proceeds to card a 114
[/quote]
Why the assumption that you have to be a scratch golfer to appreciate nice things?

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='easyyy' post='1840907' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:14 AM']3,2,1

This thread is bringing the negative meter to an all time high. We are thinking of locking her up.[/quote]
NOOOOOO . Well someone bet that this thread would close very soon back in the first few pages. Looks like someone lost haha

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1840918' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:20 AM'][quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1840904' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:14 PM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]
Case in point, my teammate and professor took to Medical Equipment reps to play golf. My Buddy said they were having lunch at the turn when one of the reps noticed my buddie studio newport headcover and said, "Hey i have a cameron too, not sure what it is, it was given to me by my boss" My buddy goes over to check it out, CT 009 Twistneck He then tells me how the guy proceeds to card a 114
[/quote]
Why the assumption that you have to be a scratch golfer to appreciate nice things?
[/quote]
I wasnt saying that at all. Just thought it was a funny story because the guy didnt seem to care at all what putter he had. I guess I should have went to walmart and seen if he would have trade putters with me

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840788' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:27 AM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840577' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:41 AM']Biscuit you have supplied nothing at all in the way of proof. All you have supplied are possibilities you have pulled out of your rear. How about for once you supply some/any evidence at all. Can you do that?[/quote]


Funny thing about proof/evidence.

Someone here posted an accusational "story" about how Scotty screwed Rick Cooper, his "father figure", and caused him to mortgage his house and "die a poor man".

So I checked out the story, found Rick Cooper's contact information, and called his business to confirm that it was the same Rick Cooper who has worked with Cameron/Callaway/Ray Cook in the golf industry. His wife said he's alive and well, and has been in business for the past 28 years. So I posted the [b]fact[/b] that Rick Cooper is neither dead nor a poor man. See post #565 on page 15, with a link to Rick Cooper's machining business in San Marcos, CA and information on the estimated annual sales of his company.

Not a single comment or apology from the Scotty Haters. And they'll probably continue to use the same story over and over again, even though they know the truth.
[/quote]

Get real, biscuity.

You're been called out on numerous issues in this thread & other threads. You've been shown to post lies, insinuations, and other malicious falsities.

You're a hypocrite with your wild display of righteous indignation.

Are you wearing your "I Pharisees" t-shirt?

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1840933' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:24 PM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1840918' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:20 AM'][quote name='Lefty Putt Righty' post='1840904' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:14 PM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840820' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:39 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840801' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:31 AM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1840777' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:22 AM']But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.
Kevin[/quote]

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?
[/quote]

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

Kevin

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.
[/quote]
Case in point, my teammate and professor took to Medical Equipment reps to play golf. My Buddy said they were having lunch at the turn when one of the reps noticed my buddie studio newport headcover and said, "Hey i have a cameron too, not sure what it is, it was given to me by my boss" My buddy goes over to check it out, CT 009 Twistneck He then tells me how the guy proceeds to card a 114
[/quote]
Why the assumption that you have to be a scratch golfer to appreciate nice things?
[/quote]
I wasnt saying that at all. Just thought it was a funny story because the guy didnt seem to care at all what putter he had. I guess I should have went to walmart and seen if he would have trade putters with me
[/quote]
Sorry, I didn't necessarily mean you personally... it just seems to be the overall wisdom that if you are a high handicapper that nice putters don't belong in your hands.

[stage1350]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840909' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:17 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840868' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:59 AM']Very well. Let's assume that you're correct and that I'm not. Then why would it matter if there's a XX page thread bashing Cameron? Why would anyone care if a $40,000 offer was turned down. Why does everyone talk about the "profit" they make flipping the Club Cameron releases? Why is it that you can't go three days on GolfWRX without someone posting a "I just got XXXX. What's it worth?" thread.

If it wasn't about the money, nobody would really care if there are or aren't 8 Minis. A quantity that small means that very few collections will ever have one. If it wasn't about the money, people would never discuss resale value. If it wasn't about the money, people would be giddy about getting a 1/10 headcover in the lottery. Yet, ironically, the distributors ALWAYS get a 1/10 cover to put up for sale and more often than not, that lucky guy puts it on eBay to flip.

You may think it's a small percentage. We are definitely going to disagree on that part. More often than not, you can't go into ANY Cameron thread without a discussion of "value" "investment" or "flipping" entering the conversation. I think the problem is greater than you think.

And, if anything, it really does detract from the truly passionate Cameron collectors that do have impressive collections. Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top is one well known collector and the stories that I've heard is that he's got some really cool stuff. But somehow, I don't think he talks about resale value. [/quote]

Unfortunately our economy is based on $$$ and perceived value. That's why people talk a lot about Tiger's contract with Nike, A-Rods salary, Jerry Seinfeld's $85million that he made last year mostly on re-run royalties etc.

Using Billy Gibbons as an example, his replica guitar goes for $25,000 with COA

"The Billy Gibbons Pearly Gates with photo print signed/framed, COA in Pearloid with black stamped lettering, case sock with signature and Pearl Gates printed on front, case lid with silk screened signature has an MSRP of $25,882 USD."
[/quote]
But we're not talking about economics. We're talking about golf. Again, it's not about the money with some people.

TRUE collectors are the ones that aren't doing it for the money. They want a rare piece and will do what is necessary to acquire it. Their thrill is having such a unique and rare piece, or something that "complete" them or their collection. So if it isn't about the money as you originally stated, why does your justification have to do with money.

Some of us are passionate about GOLF and the golf equipment. Not because of it's perceived value, but because it's rare. Because it's different. Because it's been successfully campaigned on Tour. Because you can attach a legendary name like Palmer or Nicklaus to that club.

Amazingly, that's what this site's mission statement (Who we are) is. It's the site for people that eat, sleep, and play golf. For some reason they don't mention profit margins, flipping, or resale value. Coincidence? I think not.

Those that are truly passionate about the game are the same ones that scoff and laugh at the artificial market that the "money" people are trying to produce. You may play golf. I may play golf. But how you and I view the game is radically different.

[jick]

Whatever happened to the original topic starter, nickpoz? Haven't heard from him in a while. Maybe he is on vacation?

It would be great to hear his thoughts before this thread will finally meet its closure fate.

[biscuity]

[quote name='matthewb' post='1840940' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:28 AM']Get real, biscuity.

You're been called out on numerous issues in this thread & other threads. You've been shown to post lies, insinuations, and other malicious falsities.

You're a hypocrite with your wild display of righteous indignation.

Are you wearing your "I Pharisees" t-shirt?[/quote]

I am getting real. I posted the guys name, address and phone number. Call him yourself and find out if he's dead and poor.

[JeffreySpicoli]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840956' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:33 PM'][quote name='matthewb' post='1840940' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:28 AM']Get real, biscuity.

You're been called out on numerous issues in this thread & other threads. You've been shown to post lies, insinuations, and other malicious falsities.

You're a hypocrite with your wild display of righteous indignation.

Are you wearing your "I Pharisees" t-shirt?[/quote]

I am getting real. I posted the guys name, address and phone number. Call him yourself and find out if he's dead and poor.
[/quote]

You're evading the issue of how many falsehoods *you* have posted on the site. And some malicious falsehoods, at that.

[biscuity]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1840944' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:29 AM']Those that are truly passionate about the game are the same ones that scoff and laugh at the artificial market that the "money" people are trying to produce. You may play golf. I may play golf. But how you and I view the game is radically different.[/quote]

In Bobby Jones' era Pro golfers used to be viewed as the scum of the earth for the same reason. But times have changed. I'm not defending the headcover flippers, I'm just saying that most people collect for the passion of the product more than the dollar amount. But the dollar amount enters into a lot of collecting conversations because it is a factor. The more collectible and item, the more it usually costs, and then you have to see if it fits in your budget. The ultra-rich don't need be worry about it as much as guys like you or I, because for them a $5000 putter is pocket change.

[biscuity]

[quote name='matthewb' post='1840962' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:35 AM']You're evading the issue of how many falsehoods *you* have posted on the site. And some malicious falsehoods, at that.[/quote]


You said "How about for once you supply some/any evidence at all. Can you do that?"

So I did.

Now you're asking me to prove everything I've said on this site? Me thinks you should "get real".

[Pure745]

Hi Rand

[PixlPutterman]

But I DO have an issue when they try to argue that it "feels" different or performs different.

Kevin

 

So, for arguments sake.... Same materials and specs, 1 has a "stamp" and the other doesn't.... The performance should be the exact same. I don't know how you could question that.

 

BUT.... full circle to the "confidence" conversation. That "Circle T" putter could be so heavliy coveted by the owner that the putter actually "feels" better than any other putter in the world.

 

As I always say, "feel isn't real." What I feel with a certain club isn't going to be the same for the next golfer.

 

But as stated before, if the putter "feels" great and you love it more than anything, but you still putt like Happy Gilmore......... then what?

 

We (not you and I, but people in general) could go round and round about this until the end of time. But if the metal is the same and it comes off the same machine with the same specs, then I don't know how it COULD "feel" different.

 

Might the CT stamp inspire confidence? Possibly. But that has nothing to do with the putter itself, but rather the person using it. That person has to ask himself if such confidence is worth $2,000.

 

Sounds like we're on the same page. :good:

 

Kevin

 

Edit: with regard to your Happy Gilmore comment...there are MANY people gaming expensive CT putters who can't break 90 and routinely have a bunch of three putts. I'm not saying that's wrong. Again, it's their money to spend as they wish. But it's obvious to me that the CT putter isn't doing its job inspiring enough confidence in that person to putt better. I'll go out on a limb and say that a 25 handicap would putt the same (poorly, in most cases) with a Tour putter and an OTR putter.

Case in point, my teammate and professor took to Medical Equipment reps to play golf. My Buddy said they were having lunch at the turn when one of the reps noticed my buddie studio newport headcover and said, "Hey i have a cameron too, not sure what it is, it was given to me by my boss" My buddy goes over to check it out, CT 009 Twistneck :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette: He then tells me how the guy proceeds to card a 114 :russian_roulette: :russian_roulette:

Why the assumption that you have to be a scratch golfer to appreciate nice things?

I wasnt saying that at all. Just thought it was a funny story because the guy didnt seem to care at all what putter he had. I guess I should have went to walmart and seen if he would have trade putters with me :D :D

Sorry, I didn't necessarily mean you personally... it just seems to be the overall wisdom that if you are a high handicapper that nice putters don't belong in your hands.

The way i take it, the lower your handicap, the more you appreciate it for what it is, a golf club, all they guys on tour are using them to put the ball in the hole, seems like the guys who are making all the noise with profit margins couldnt make a putt into this

 

 

just a general assumption