Who actually plays golf by the rules anymore???

[teejaywhy]

I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.

[station2station]

Because I have an older junior golfer at home I'm pretty versed on the rules of golf (except maybe the obscurities). Not that I sit at home and study the book, we've just seen most situations a million times.

From burrowing animals to casual water, and all the drop rules.

I don't find that my playing partners ignore many of them, they just make them quicker. On cart path they simply take a new stance and drop roughly where the would have (no closer) BUT they don't put tees in the ground and lay clubs.

For the sake of pace we also don't go back to the tee box on tee shot out of bounds. (which we discovered was OB upon inspection at the final resting point of the ball)

( I also don't think they would ever play a mudball - they would always "winter rule" that one - even in june )

[SJHSCCC]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='2050608' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:31 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2050472' date='Nov 6 2009, 10:10 PM']heck ive seen alot...and still dont think ive seen it all....ive seen practice swings in bunkers/hazards ( i wont even count laying clubs in them)[/quote]


OneBowTie, I am one who "actually plays by the rules of golf". And so devoted to doing so that I feel compelled to point out that it is not against the rules to lay a club down in a hazard. See decision 13-4/0.5.

I would not enjoy my game if I violated any rule. I do not care a whit if my playing companions violate any rule they choose to, as long as we are not competing. At the same time I get very frustrated by people who get offended at my playing by the rules. It seems to me that my behavior makes them feel uncomfortable with their own actions, and they attempt to free themselves of this feeling by insisting that I join them in ignoring the rules. Sorry, not gonna happen.

I only wish those people were as liberal with my playing by the rules as I am with their violating the rules.
[/quote]


[quote name='Borbor' post='2050611' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:35 PM']hard to play by the rules to the t given how the courses are so tightly packed.

I mean how many of us will go back to where we were after not locating a ball and hitting our shot + penalty stroke from there?

I've never seen that done on a recreational round of golf.[/quote]


[quote name='KDMullins' post='2050643' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:54 PM']I generally agree, but I will say guys pick up in my group for ESC purposes.

Also, as a practical matter, if a lot of the guys I see playing actually played by the rules, it would result in an 8 hour round![/quote]


[quote name='OldSkoolTexan' post='2050780' date='Nov 7 2009, 02:37 AM'][quote name='Bomb and Gouge' post='2050561' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:06 PM']I play by the ball down 100% of the time.

No gimme's
No mulligans
No fluffin'[/quote]

+1..... Also I give NO strokes nor accept them...
[/quote]


[quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]

I really like the responses.....its interesting to see all the views and opinions......

and i must confess....I dont want to be labeled as a hypocrite....

from my past golfing enjoyments and experiences.....I think for many of us...its the old adage....WHEN IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO....

Personally, I try to play for the enjoyment of everyone around me without changing the spirit of the game.....

I have taken 2 balls on first tee

I have taken in the leather putts

I have laid a rake in trap

I do play triple bogey maxx

I dont agree with statements that it takes longer to play by the rules of golf....if you use common sense you can speed the play of golf up...IE.... provisional ball's....also I find that if people did putt out it would speed up their game tenfold....

I think that we have lost sight of the spirit of the game.....on certain occasions perhaps it is best served for all involved (your group and the course) to simply play a modified version of rules and simply forget about carding your round as a official round....

It is also not uncommon for many states to have a winter version or golf rules....meaning you can roll the ball in your own fairway.....

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.

[TNCass]

Both of my kids grew up playing various junior tours and competetive golf. When they got old enough to play with an adult or two, we were on the course one day and a close friend of mine rolled a put up on the lip and reached out with his putter and drug it back to himself. My daughter who was about 11 at the time looked at him and said, "Walt, arent you going to putt out?" The look on his face was absolutely priceless. Puts a lot of things in perspective that carry over to life.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[volrus]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 12:49 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

I do and have played on those tours..... and guess what, it isnt the rules that slow things down.... its the golfers who refuse to play ready golf....and the golfers who act like they are in the final group on sunday on PGA TOUR....

Played Hilton Head a few weeks ago, and it only took 4:15 to play saturdays round and 4:30 for sundays round... and this was the Egolf tour championship.....

[highergr0und]

I play pretty relaxed golf. I don't keep a handicap. To me, the rules that are important are those laid out and agreed to on the first tee to give everyone in the group an equal starting point. The worse thing is when a guy wins playing different rules than the rest of the group. It's kind of like playing in a scramble. That tournament defeats the purpose of golf with improving lies, etc. The thing is, the rules are set at the outset and you score the best you can according to them.

Depending on the group I'm with, the stroke play "rules" can be anything from strict by the book, to one mulligan a side, or even my favorite (with one friend) that if you find your ball in a hazard, it's a free drop. Stroke and distance on a ball that was thought to be safe rarely gets played, just drop three (or four, or whatever) in the area. It's kind of like playing a pickup game in most sports. The most annoying guy on the basketball court in a pickup game is the guy that calls every little foul and violation.

Now if I were to keep an USGA handicap, I would play and post rounds played according to the USGA rulebook.

[boo radley]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM']Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.[/quote]

Slow golf IS caused by slow golfers, but there are a number of reasons slow golfers are slow -- one of which is that they aren't especially good. Golfers who aren't especially good -- the majority of EVERYONE who plays golf -- lose a lot of balls in hazards, the woods, and so forth.

You seem to be deliberately contentious, if you keep maintaining that having these golfers play by the Rules of Golf wouldn't additionally slow things down. 5 minutes searching for a lost ball, returning to the tee (or location of original shot), spending another 5 minutes lookiing for THAT ball, stopping every few shots, to pull out the rule book...I shudder to think.

I have played golf with a lot of different people, recreationally, over the last 20 years, and I can think of maybe two people that *truly* could turn in the round as completely legitimate under the Rule of Golf. Seriously.

The simple fact is the Rules are too difficult and too complex for the Common Man's skill set.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='highergr0und' post='2051221' date='Nov 7 2009, 01:10 PM']SNIP

Now if I were to keep an USGA handicap, I would play and post rounds played according to the USGA rulebook.[/quote]

The interesting point here is that you could keep a very valid, "audit-proof" USGA handicap and absolutely NOT play strictly by the RoG.

You can pick up a ball on a hole (for any reason other than handicap index manipulation) and post a valid score (see rule 4-2 in the USGA Handicap Manual). Heck you can even skip a hole (assuming the purpose is not handicap index manipulation).The scores that you post may well not be 'valid' under the RoG (in particular, ESC adjustments). But (per the Handicap Manual) that is OK - the RoG issues are a separate (but obviously related) matter.

IMHO, very few golfers play strictly by the RoG on every round. In my experience there are a bunch of golfers that play 'by the rules' according to the USGA handicap manual. And even if you "play by the RoG", things can get ambiguous. For example, you are lying 1 on a par 3, 14' from the hole. Your match play opponent has just pumped two balls OB and concedes the hole. Your RoG score is 2. Unless you are one helluva putter, that isn't the score you should post. Sometimes the Handicap System leads you to post higher scores vs. lower scores. I'm not sure what folks who say "I always play STRICTLY by the RoG" do in this situation.

dave

ps. I once asked our local Carolina's Golf Association guru how he handles posting and conceded putts in Match Play (a common competition for him). He said that he keeps track of conceded putts longer than 3', and will adjust his score before posting if he believes that he would typically generate a score higher than his RoG score.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:49 AM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.

[volrus]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051212' date='Nov 7 2009, 12:02 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 12:49 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

I do and have played on those tours..... and guess what, it isnt the rules that slow things down.... its the golfers who refuse to play ready golf....and the golfers who act like they are in the final group on sunday on PGA TOUR....

Played Hilton Head a few weeks ago, and it only took 4:15 to play saturdays round and 4:30 for sundays round... and this was the Egolf tour championship.....

[/quote]

Not to thread jack, but how did you do down there? I heard the courses were set up on Saturday ridiculously difficult and that apparently led to high scores. I qualified but decided not to go...went to play the RTJ Trail courses with some friends.

[volrus]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2051389' date='Nov 7 2009, 02:56 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:49 AM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.
[/quote]

Chill out man, it's just a friendly dicussion no need for the shouting. Back on topic, I disagree, I can 100% guarantee and am willing to bet any amount of money that if I play two rounds by myself, one where I play strictly by the rules and one where I take 2 foot gimmees, don't go back and re-tee on the occassion of a lost ball, etc. the "cheating" round will be quicker.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051401' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:12 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051212' date='Nov 7 2009, 12:02 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 12:49 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

I do and have played on those tours..... and guess what, it isnt the rules that slow things down.... its the golfers who refuse to play ready golf....and the golfers who act like they are in the final group on sunday on PGA TOUR....

Played Hilton Head a few weeks ago, and it only took 4:15 to play saturdays round and 4:30 for sundays round... and this was the Egolf tour championship.....

[/quote]

Not to thread jack, but how did you do down there? I heard the courses were set up on Saturday ridiculously difficult and that apparently led to high scores. I qualified but decided not to go...went to play the RTJ Trail courses with some friends.
[/quote]


Im sure you had a great trip of your own on the RTJ TRAIL..... you missed a great Finals..... It looked leading up to the event as if weather was going to be a factor..... but the weather was perfect.....

I shot 85 on sat and 88 on sunday...... I actually played better then my scores reflect.... but on sunday after about 11 holes with a great round going..... I had two hozel rockets and was afraid to swing a iron after that and played very protective.....

I did play in the friday skins game- and wish I hadn't.... it played like a scramble and didn't do much for practice.....the courses I did play were in good shape and they had the greens rolling very fast.....there were not many unfair or extremely tough pin placements in the B flights, just a couple

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2051389' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:56 PM']SNIP

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.[/quote]

I completely agree that slow players play slow (primarily) just because they are slow players. The reasons for this vary by player.

What logic leads you to believe that slow players do not play more slowly when strictly following the rules? I am assuming here that the typical slow golfer, when skimping on the rules, takes fewer strokes than required, not more.

dave

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051407' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:18 PM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051389' date='Nov 7 2009, 02:56 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:49 AM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.
[/quote]

Chill out man, it's just a friendly dicussion no need for the shouting. Back on topic, I disagree, I can 100% guarantee and am willing to bet any amount of money that if I play two rounds by myself, one where I play strictly by the rules and one where I take 2 foot gimmees, don't go back and re-tee on the occassion of a lost ball, etc. the "cheating" round will be quicker.
[/quote]

what you are describing may very well be true as for time wise.....

however, if you simply re-tee'd a provisional on any errant shots off the tee and putted out 2 footers, your time difference would be minimal and most likely plenty acceptable to any groups playing behind you.....

I have witnessed many beginner golfers or even just high handicappers who play and keep up with fast players....... and have likewise witnessed some low handicappers that are simply SLOW players......

there is no reason to address and readdress EVERY single shot or putt..... and some players are just inherently slow by indecisive club selection and will change clubs many many times on numerous shots..... we have all seen players way over read a green......these are just a few reasons for slow play....not rules

[offapex]

do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette

[volrus]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051419' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:31 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051407' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:18 PM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051389' date='Nov 7 2009, 02:56 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:49 AM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.
[/quote]

Chill out man, it's just a friendly dicussion no need for the shouting. Back on topic, I disagree, I can 100% guarantee and am willing to bet any amount of money that if I play two rounds by myself, one where I play strictly by the rules and one where I take 2 foot gimmees, don't go back and re-tee on the occassion of a lost ball, etc. the "cheating" round will be quicker.
[/quote]

what you are describing may very well be true as for time wise.....

however, if you simply re-tee'd a provisional on any errant shots off the tee and putted out 2 footers, your time difference would be minimal and most likely plenty acceptable to any groups playing behind you.....

I have witnessed many beginner golfers or even just high handicappers who play and keep up with fast players....... and have likewise witnessed some low handicappers that are simply SLOW players......

there is no reason to address and readdress EVERY single shot or putt..... and some players are just inherently slow by indecisive club selection and will change clubs many many times on numerous shots..... we have all seen players way over read a green......these are just a few reasons for slow play....not rules
[/quote]

I don't disagree at all. Some people are just slow and I've played with many of them unfortunately...drives me nuts...especially when they aren't good enough to be grinding so hard. I'm a decent golfer (currently a 7.2 index) and will play with anybody regardless of skill level as long as they don't play slow. I don't mind playing with a guy who shoots a 120 as long as he isn't grinding over every one of those shots! Don't get me wrong, I can handle a little extra time if someone has a crucial putt or shot that really means something, but not every shot.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051419' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:31 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051407' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:18 PM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051389' date='Nov 7 2009, 02:56 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051190' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:49 AM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051142' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:10 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051118' date='Nov 7 2009, 11:59 AM'][quote name='SJHSCCC' post='2051077' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:27 AM'][quote name='tjy355' post='2051054' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I absolutely disagree that it "takes longer" to play by the rules.

You can apply all the rationalization you want to but either you play golf by the rules or you play some other game that happens to use golf clubs and balls.[/quote]


Totally disagree.

It can take an unreasonable amount of time for some people to play by the rules straight up. And you would agree the next time you are on the course and there is a foursome of hackers in front of you. If they played by the rules everytime they hit it out of bounds or 4 and 5 putting every hole, and played the ball down everytime it would take 8 hours for them to complete a round. Especially on a busy day I don't know about you but I don't want to play behind that. But it absolutely depends on the skill level, and whether the game is a sport to you or a recreational hobby. It is a sport to me and play 3-5 times per week always by the rules, but that is not the case for everyone.
[/quote]

Slow golf is caused by slow golfers. Not because they are playing by the rules.
[/quote]

I agree.... too many times do I see people addressing the ball and then doing a Furyk 4 or 5 times.....and on the green its almost comical to watch some of these guys reading and lining up their putts...OVER AND OVER AND OVER....

I think people watch way too much TV golf and don't believe in ready golf......

[/quote]


I'm all for playing by the rules, but I completely disagree that it doesn't take longer to play strictly by the rules. If you don't believe me, try playing on either the Golf Channel Amateur Tour or the eGolf Amateur Golf Tour. Most of the guys are pretty good golfers who know how to play quickly but our rounds still take 5 to 6 hours to play.
[/quote]

IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYING BY THE RULES!!!

They play slowly because they are SLOW PLAYERS.
[/quote]

Chill out man, it's just a friendly dicussion no need for the shouting. Back on topic, I disagree, I can 100% guarantee and am willing to bet any amount of money that if I play two rounds by myself, one where I play strictly by the rules and one where I take 2 foot gimmees, don't go back and re-tee on the occassion of a lost ball, etc. the "cheating" round will be quicker.
[/quote]

what you are describing may very well be true as for time wise.....

however, if you simply re-tee'd a provisional on any errant shots off the tee and putted out 2 footers, your time difference would be minimal and most likely plenty acceptable to any groups playing behind you.....

I have witnessed many beginner golfers or even just high handicappers who play and keep up with fast players....... and have likewise witnessed some low handicappers that are simply SLOW players......

there is no reason to address and readdress EVERY single shot or putt..... and some players are just inherently slow by indecisive club selection and will change clubs many many times on numerous shots..... we have all seen players way over read a green......these are just a few reasons for slow play....not rules
[/quote]
I myself have personally witnessed on many occasions a ball, tee shot usually miss the fairway by no more than a couple of yards and the ball is no where to be found, whether it is fall and there are leaves or it plugged, a squirrel took it, it fell in the hole or it is just buried in the rough. Walking back to the tee will slow the round down. There are two kinds of golf, as Bobby Jones said, there is golf, and there is torunament golf. Sometimes common sense should prevail especially if you are playing a match. Nothing more annoying than playing with two guys who are having a pissing contest to see who can call the most rules violations.

[volrus]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

Disagree that your suggestions will take care of everything. You can't tell me you've never lost a ball that you either thought was in the middle of the fairway or got nestled down in the rough and couldn't be found. This is especially true right now in the fall with leaves all over the place. It can be difficult to find your ball on occassion. Another example is if you're playing a course for the first time and you aren't sure of the course layout and where water or other hazards may be in play. If you want to really take care of it, you better be hitting provisionals off of nearly every tee (exception being when you can actually see your ball come to rest either on the green or in the fairway) and I guarantee that would slow the round down. Just sayin...

[offapex]

you do realize that hitting a provisional takes time, right? i don't entirely disagree with you that slow players are slow, regardless of playing by the rules or not. but no doubt an average player of average speed playing by ALL the rules will slow things down.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051454' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:01 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

Disagree that your suggestions will take care of everything. You can't tell me you've never lost a ball that you either thought was in the middle of the fairway or got nestled down in the rough and couldn't be found. This is especially true right now in the fall with leaves all over the place. It can be difficult to find your ball on occassion. Another example is if you're playing a course for the first time and you aren't sure of the course layout and where water or other hazards may be in play. If you want to really take care of it, you better be hitting provisionals off of nearly every tee (exception being when you can actually see your ball come to rest either on the green or in the fairway) and I guarantee that would slow the round down. Just sayin...
[/quote]

look, you make some good and valid points..... however dont take this wrong, as its not meant to be a pee contest....... i play golf almost weekly at a new course or one that I have not played before.... and honestly, yes certain times there are leaves, wet conditions that cause a plugged ball or any other condition..... but these are generally exceptions and not the norm..... most courses I have played from the cheapest of cheap to the top of the line do blow leaves ...... as far as plugged ball....honestly, how often do you loose your golf ball???

I am not implying my suggestions will take care of everything..... but they certainly will help many people to speed up play.....

bottom line.....I dont think most slow play is caused from lost balls, re-tee'd shots or plugged balls..... we are now to the point of looking for excuses for slow play or blaming rules for slowing down play..... yes on occasion, rules may cause someone to slow down.... but the norm isn't rules cause slow play..... why do you think that they allow for LOCAL RULES to take over......so a decent golf course will implement drop areas, leaf rules, and playing certain holes as hazards instead of OB...... most decent courses learn where problem area's are and take corrective actions to speed play up....

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='shift' post='2051462' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:05 PM']you do realize that hitting a provisional takes time, right? i don't entirely disagree with you that slow players are slow, regardless of playing by the rules or not. but no doubt an average player of average speed playing by ALL the rules will slow things down.[/quote]


yes i do realize provisionals take time.... but wont you agree that this is probably minimal at best......and certainly a provisional is much quicker then going and looking and then coming back....

I say that common sense will speed up play and ignorance will slow it down in most cases.....

I dont think anybody on any golf course takes offense to the golfer who comes back once to the tee for a lost ball or OB shot that they didnt realize..... and in most cases they hit and clear out and speed up to get back into the correct slot

[volrus]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051467' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:13 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051454' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:01 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

Disagree that your suggestions will take care of everything. You can't tell me you've never lost a ball that you either thought was in the middle of the fairway or got nestled down in the rough and couldn't be found. This is especially true right now in the fall with leaves all over the place. It can be difficult to find your ball on occassion. Another example is if you're playing a course for the first time and you aren't sure of the course layout and where water or other hazards may be in play. If you want to really take care of it, you better be hitting provisionals off of nearly every tee (exception being when you can actually see your ball come to rest either on the green or in the fairway) and I guarantee that would slow the round down. Just sayin...
[/quote]

look, you make some good and valid points..... however dont take this wrong, as its not meant to be a pee contest....... i play golf almost weekly at a new course or one that I have not played before.... and honestly, yes certain times there are leaves, wet conditions that cause a plugged ball or any other condition..... but these are generally exceptions and not the norm..... most courses I have played from the cheapest of cheap to the top of the line do blow leaves ...... as far as plugged ball....honestly, how often do you loose your golf ball???

I am not implying my suggestions will take care of everything..... but they certainly will help many people to speed up play.....

bottom line.....I dont think most slow play is caused from lost balls, re-tee'd shots or plugged balls..... we are now to the point of looking for excuses for slow play or blaming rules for slowing down play..... yes on occasion, rules may cause someone to slow down.... but the norm isn't rules cause slow play..... why do you think that they allow for LOCAL RULES to take over......so a decent golf course will implement drop areas, leaf rules, and playing certain holes as hazards instead of OB...... most decent courses learn where problem area's are and take corrective actions to speed play up....

[/quote]


I don't think we really disagree, I am all for playing a provisional when necessary and certainly playing by the rules. I also realize that there are people out there that are generally slow players. My only point is that when strictly playing by the rules the type of situations described above, while I agree are not the norm, do happen and will result in longer rounds. I can tell you I have no desire to play a round with my boss where he plays by every rule, we would run out of daylight on most days.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051478' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:19 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051467' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:13 PM'][quote name='volrus' post='2051454' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:01 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

Disagree that your suggestions will take care of everything. You can't tell me you've never lost a ball that you either thought was in the middle of the fairway or got nestled down in the rough and couldn't be found. This is especially true right now in the fall with leaves all over the place. It can be difficult to find your ball on occassion. Another example is if you're playing a course for the first time and you aren't sure of the course layout and where water or other hazards may be in play. If you want to really take care of it, you better be hitting provisionals off of nearly every tee (exception being when you can actually see your ball come to rest either on the green or in the fairway) and I guarantee that would slow the round down. Just sayin...
[/quote]

look, you make some good and valid points..... however dont take this wrong, as its not meant to be a pee contest....... i play golf almost weekly at a new course or one that I have not played before.... and honestly, yes certain times there are leaves, wet conditions that cause a plugged ball or any other condition..... but these are generally exceptions and not the norm..... most courses I have played from the cheapest of cheap to the top of the line do blow leaves ...... as far as plugged ball....honestly, how often do you loose your golf ball???

I am not implying my suggestions will take care of everything..... but they certainly will help many people to speed up play.....

bottom line.....I dont think most slow play is caused from lost balls, re-tee'd shots or plugged balls..... we are now to the point of looking for excuses for slow play or blaming rules for slowing down play..... yes on occasion, rules may cause someone to slow down.... but the norm isn't rules cause slow play..... why do you think that they allow for LOCAL RULES to take over......so a decent golf course will implement drop areas, leaf rules, and playing certain holes as hazards instead of OB...... most decent courses learn where problem area's are and take corrective actions to speed play up....

[/quote]


I don't think we really disagree, I am all for playing a provisional when necessary and certainly playing by the rules. I also realize that there are people out there that are generally slow players. My only point is that when strictly playing by the rules the type of situations described above, while I agree are not the norm, do happen and will result in longer rounds. I can tell you I have no desire to play a round with my boss where he plays by every rule, we would run out of daylight on most days.
[/quote]


10-4...... and I fully understand about playing golf with some people..... after all....if it isn't fun, why play

I have played alot of golf at many different courses in many different states.... and for the most part.... the courses do a decent job of identifying problem holes or situations and take corrective actions with local rules to speed up play....with drop areas, root rules, fire ant hills, too many lost balls in woods or tall grass areas-so they mark it as hazard......

I still stick with lack of common sense is a major reason for slow golf...not rules

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='volrus' post='2051454' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:01 PM']SNIP

Disagree that your suggestions will take care of everything. You can't tell me you've never lost a ball that you either thought was in the middle of the fairway or got nestled down in the rough and couldn't be found. This is especially true right now in the fall with leaves all over the place. It can be difficult to find your ball on occassion. Another example is if you're playing a course for the first time and you aren't sure of the course layout and where water or other hazards may be in play. If you want to really take care of it, you better be hitting provisionals off of nearly every tee (exception being when you can actually see your ball come to rest either on the green or in the fairway) and I guarantee that would slow the round down. Just sayin...[/quote]

True story here. I was once playing a course that was new to the entire foursome. We were playing an interesting par 5 that had a lake on the left, swampy-hazard on the right, and the fairway necked down to about 8 yards wide maybe 210 yards off the tee. A 240 yard pure carry would clear it all, but none of us had the kind of length that would make that an intelligent choice. So we all hit lay-ups - mine was a 3i.

It was late in the day and we were hitting "dead west" into the sun. My layup was absolutely striped down the middle. When we got to the landing area and my ball was nowhere to be found. You couldn't hit a more perfect shot and 210 yards (even with some roll) with a 3i is one helluva shot for me (mid 90's driver SS). This would normally be the club that I would be hitting from 180-185.

There was absolutely nowhere for the ball to be other than in the hazard either left or right. There was no rough anywhere near where the ball would end up - just hazard (or fairway). And, of course, the question was which side to take a drop/stroke (both were lateral's).

You never know. And I suppose that you could make a case that says that I should have gone back to the tee. But it was tight trying to finish before dark (15th or 16th hole - can't recall) and there were two groups behind us (one just approaching the tee as we were comtemplating options). PLUS we were walking this round. You won't find me walking back to the tee under those circumstances.

dave

[OpusX20]

I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".