Who actually plays golf by the rules anymore???

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here

[Large David Hammer]

[quote name='highergr0und' post='2051221' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:10 AM']Depending on the group I'm with, the stroke play "rules" can be anything from strict by the book, to one mulligan a side, or even my favorite (with one friend) that if you find your ball in a hazard, it's a free drop. Stroke and distance on a ball that was thought to be safe rarely gets played, just drop three (or four, or whatever) in the area. It's kind of like playing a pickup game in most sports. The most annoying guy on the basketball court in a pickup game is the guy that calls every little foul and violation.[/quote]

I like the pick-up basketball analogy a lot! I think context is everything. I would love to play by the rules all the time personally. What's the point otherwise?...particularly if you take golf as seriously as a person who would join GolfWRX does. We all qualify as WAY into golf, relative to everyone else.

So when I play with a buddy who is just starting to play...and on a "real" course might shoot 115...I will be hyper-sensitive to time of play, and etiquette...more-so than rules.

Frankly I don't want to keep saying "technically you had a 12, but we'll write 8". It would not further his interest in playing this game long-term to hear, "you're worse than you think, you don't know the rules,... but hey, forget about it, it's all good".

I'd rather, when he's much-improved and there's something riding on it, have him ask me about the rules.

Plus! We say "play strictly by the rules" pretty loosely on here...I'm guessing, even among the die-hards, there's only 2% who REALLY know the rules inside and out...without having to look SOMETHING up.

If you're below a 17 HDCP - you should play by the rules all the time and provisionals really are time-savers compared to walking (yes I am a dedicated walker) back and re-teeing.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????

[OpusX20]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051556' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:29 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, posting scores under USGA guidelines and following the letter of the Rules of Golf are two totally different things. Most of what has been discussed had to do with following the Rules of Golf and not dealing with the USGA handicap manual. And, just because something is "widely accepted" doesn't mean anything. Mulligans are also widely accepted, but still contrary to the Rules.

Are you being serious when you ask where I get that playing in a scramble is contrary to the Rules of Golf? Where in the Rules does it allow for 4 players to hit a shot, then 3 pick up their ball and move it to the ball of the fourth?

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='2051567' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051556' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:29 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, posting scores under USGA guidelines and following the letter of the Rules of Golf are two totally different things. Most of what has been discussed had to do with following the Rules of Golf and not dealing with the USGA handicap manual. And, just because something is "widely accepted" doesn't mean anything. Mulligans are also widely accepted, but still contrary to the Rules.

Are you being serious when you ask where I get that playing in a scramble is contrary to the Rules of Golf? Where in the Rules does it allow for 4 players to hit a shot, then 3 pick up their ball and move it to the ball of the fourth?
[/quote]


You know what...... I doubt you and I are anywhere near being on the same page...... If you honestly think your playing a game of golf when you play a scramble.....all im going to say is....hit it long and strong

[OpusX20]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051590' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:50 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051567' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051556' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:29 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, posting scores under USGA guidelines and following the letter of the Rules of Golf are two totally different things. Most of what has been discussed had to do with following the Rules of Golf and not dealing with the USGA handicap manual. And, just because something is "widely accepted" doesn't mean anything. Mulligans are also widely accepted, but still contrary to the Rules.

Are you being serious when you ask where I get that playing in a scramble is contrary to the Rules of Golf? Where in the Rules does it allow for 4 players to hit a shot, then 3 pick up their ball and move it to the ball of the fourth?
[/quote]


You know what...... I doubt you and I are anywhere near being on the same page...... If you honestly think your playing a game of golf when you play a scramble.....all im going to say is....hit it long and strong




[/quote]

So, now I'm confused. You were saying that a scramble was not contrary to the Rules. And now you're saying a scramble is not a "game of golf".

[mark m]

RULES:
We normally have group of around 20+ guys that play every Sat & Sun.
Handicaps vary from +2 to around 30 (most are single digit).
We throw $20 "in the middle" for skins, nearies, and low net.
We play by the rules of course. And we putt everything out (no gimmies, mulligans, "breakfast ball" or whatever). We also have a lot of fun!

QUESTION: How can you play for money and not play by the rules?

You will learn the basic rules pretty quick. It is your responsibility and in your financial interest to do so.


Pace of Play:
We play a good length course and rarely does a round take more than 4:30.
Most rounds are around 4:00.
About 40% walk of the group walks and 5-somes are allowed as well.

Match Play:
Once a shot is conceded - that's it. However - Why not putt it out for handicap purposes?
And remember that the player has to have the integrity to try hard on every shot. That is the underlying premise of the handicap system.

If you do pick-up - see below for what to do.

From the USGA Handicap System manual:

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url][/i]. The [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url][/i] may not exceed the player's [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#equitableStrokeControl"]Equitable Stroke Control[/url][/i] limit, defined in Section [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14377#4-3"]4-3[/url]. This [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url][/i] should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14378#4-1/1"]4-1/1[/url].)

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.



[i]Example 1:[/i] A and B are partners in a four-ball stroke play competition. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A lies two, 18 feet from the hole. B lies two, 25 feet from the hole. B holes a putt for a 3. A picks up on the hole, because A cannot better B's score. A records X-4 on the scorecard because 4 is A's [i]most likely score.[/i]

[i]Example 2:[/i] A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url][/i].

[i]Example 3:[/i] A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A is one foot from the hole, lying 4. B is 10 feet from the hole, lying 3. B putts and misses. They both concede a half. Both players record X-5 because that is their [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url][/i].



[url="http://"]4-1/1. Explanation of "Most Likely Score" for Holes Not Completed

Q: Section 4[/url], adjusting hole scores, says that a player who starts but does not complete a hole records for handicap purposes the "most likely score. This score must not exceed the player's maximum number under Equitable Stroke Control. Clarify the meaning of most likely score.

A: Most likely score is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score.

Finally, the player compares the most likely score to the maximum permitted under Equitable Stroke Control and enters the lower of the two. For example, if most likely score is 8 but the applicable ESC maximum is 7, the player enters a score, for handicap purposes, of X-7.

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under "The Rules of Golf" (except for [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#preferredLies"]preferred lies[/url][/i]), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#par"]par[/url][/i] plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

[i]Example:[/i] A player with a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#CourseHandicap"]Course Handicap[/url][/i] of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated [i]handicap-stroke holes[/i]. If the player does not play the sixth allocated [i]handicap-stroke hole,[/i] which is a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#par"]par[/url][/i] 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#par"]par[/url][/i] plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Section [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14379#5-2"]5-2b[/url].)

[i]Note[/i][i]:[/i] A score must not be posted if the majority of the holes are not played under the principles of "The Rules of Golf."

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='2051603' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:58 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051590' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:50 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051567' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051556' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:29 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, posting scores under USGA guidelines and following the letter of the Rules of Golf are two totally different things. Most of what has been discussed had to do with following the Rules of Golf and not dealing with the USGA handicap manual. And, just because something is "widely accepted" doesn't mean anything. Mulligans are also widely accepted, but still contrary to the Rules.

Are you being serious when you ask where I get that playing in a scramble is contrary to the Rules of Golf? Where in the Rules does it allow for 4 players to hit a shot, then 3 pick up their ball and move it to the ball of the fourth?
[/quote]


You know what...... I doubt you and I are anywhere near being on the same page...... If you honestly think your playing a game of golf when you play a scramble.....all im going to say is....hit it long and strong




[/quote]

So, now I'm confused. You were saying that a scramble was not contrary to the Rules. And now you're saying a scramble is not a "game of golf".
[/quote]

are there clouds in your coffee ....... let me try to explain myself better so you may understand...... we have thee game of golf....and then we have games of golf derived from the game of golf.... all for the enjoyment and enhancement of others that may or may not want to partake in the purist form of golf.....a scramble generally has its own set of rules which are not generally held to the standards of thee game of golf....

if and when you play a scramble.....you are more then welcome to feel like you are or may violate the rules of the game of golf....myself, and i would guess many others.....dont feel that way....

do you think horse/pig/21 is held to the same standard of thee game of basketball????

[boo radley]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

[1a] In a tournament situation, using the full 5 minutes is part of the game. On an uncrowded golf course, using the full five minutes is part of the game. On a crowded golf course, poor golfers spending the full five minutes looking for EVERY lost ball would be agonizing, and if I'm behind them, I don't want it part of MY game.

[2a] You're presuming the provisional will be perfectly hit. Many times, that's just ANOTHER ball the golfer has to look for with his nasty ball retriever, further slowing things down.

[3a] Ah! You're suggesting a Provisional for a ball that might have not have cleared a water hazard??

Not so fast, sir. Why wouldn't you proceed under Rule 26? Perhaps we need to look closely at Rule 27-2. Sounds good to me. Hmm....But wait! There's Decision 27-2a/2. Who's got the Rule Book? Let's all sit down on the tee box and discuss...Never mind the group behind. I also hope that you explain to the new golfer the nuances of Decision 27-2a/1.5 in case he'd like to quickly take the cart and look for the ball, first. Fortunately, sorting this out takes no time, and everyone waiting understands it's part of the game.

And then there's the whole 'hazard and lateral hazard' thing, and players puzzling out and arguing about the entry point and what is in line with the pin, and driving to where the proper spot is, but no -- it might be better to go back to the location of the [i]original[/i] shot, and driving THERE....Again, everyone should understand this takes NO extra time.

Or there's the business of taking a proper drop, because we *know* it doesn't take any longer to drop, properly, right? With two tee's, and going back to the cart, for the driver, since you've got a wedge in your hand, and you're permitted to use the longest club? But you're on a sidehill lie, so it rolls twice back into the hazard, and there's question of where to place it, and, and, AAAAGH.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='boo radley' post='2051659' date='Nov 7 2009, 07:35 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051443' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:54 PM'][quote name='shift' post='2051425' date='Nov 7 2009, 04:40 PM']do you...

1. really want the guy in front of you spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball?
2. really want the guy in front of you to walk ball to the tee and hit again on an OB?
3. really want the guy in front of you to walk back around the water hazard to drop?

careful for what you wish for.[/quote]


1) thats part of the game.....and at some point, simple etiquette needs to be explained to somebody having a really bad day.....to simply hit PROVISIONALS and play them in

2) If you play a PROVISIONAL there would be no need walk back, good golf management would be to have played a PROVISIONAL off the tee

3) again, what you are using for slow play can be avoided by playing a PROVISIONAL ball when any doubt of finding ball that may or may not have cleared a hazard.....

sounds to me like too many excuses for not simply exercising good golf management and golf etiquette
[/quote]

[1a] In a tournament situation, using the full 5 minutes is part of the game. On an uncrowded golf course, using the full five minutes is part of the game. On a crowded golf course, poor golfers spending the full five minutes looking for EVERY lost ball would be agonizing, and if I'm behind them, I don't want it part of MY game.

[2a] You're presuming the provisional will be perfectly hit. Many times, that's just ANOTHER ball the golfer has to look for with his nasty ball retriever, further slowing things down.

[3a] Ah! You're suggesting a Provisional for a ball that might have not have cleared a water hazard??

Not so fast, sir. Why wouldn't you proceed under Rule 26? Perhaps we need to look closely at Rule 27-2. Sounds good to me. Hmm....But wait! There's Decision 27-2a/2. Who's got the Rule Book? Let's all sit down on the tee box and discuss...Never mind the group behind. I also hope that you explain to the new golfer the nuances of Decision 27-2a/1.5 in case he'd like to quickly take the cart and look for the ball, first. Fortunately, sorting this out takes no time, and everyone waiting understands it's part of the game.

And then there's the whole 'hazard and lateral hazard' thing, and players puzzling out and arguing about the entry point and what is in line with the pin, and driving to where the proper spot is, but no -- it might be better to go back to the location of the [i]original[/i] shot, and driving THERE....Again, everyone should understand this takes NO extra time.

Or there's the business of taking a proper drop, because we *know* it doesn't take any longer to drop, properly, right? With two tee's, and going back to the cart, for the driver, since you've got a wedge in your hand, and you're permitted to use the longest club? But you're on a sidehill lie, so it rolls twice back into the hazard, and there's question of where to place it, and, and, AAAAGH.
[/quote]


well now....sounds like rules are for fools

[OpusX20]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051648' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:27 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051603' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:58 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051590' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:50 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051567' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051556' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:29 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051545' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:22 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051537' date='Nov 7 2009, 05:13 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2051535' date='Nov 7 2009, 06:09 PM']I played in a four man scramble last week. I guess that puts me in the "doesn't follow the Rules of Golf camp".[/quote]


two words..... im not following your logic here...... perhaps the common sense rule may apply here
[/quote]

The logic is that playing in a scramble is definitely contrary to the Rules of Golf. Much more so than picking up a 2 footer. I was just confessing that I do not always play by the Rules. If you only play by the Rules, you would never go near a scramble.
[/quote]


I would think a scramble is widely accepted variation of golf designed for large groups, fund raisers amongst things..... I do not think anyone cards a score for a scramble...or at least I dont.....and I dont feel in anyway shape or form when I do play in a scramble that I am cheating nor are any of the other participants

I don't know where you get playing in a scramble is contrary to the rules of golf....

do you actually enter your score from a scramble into your handicap system????
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, posting scores under USGA guidelines and following the letter of the Rules of Golf are two totally different things. Most of what has been discussed had to do with following the Rules of Golf and not dealing with the USGA handicap manual. And, just because something is "widely accepted" doesn't mean anything. Mulligans are also widely accepted, but still contrary to the Rules.

Are you being serious when you ask where I get that playing in a scramble is contrary to the Rules of Golf? Where in the Rules does it allow for 4 players to hit a shot, then 3 pick up their ball and move it to the ball of the fourth?
[/quote]


You know what...... I doubt you and I are anywhere near being on the same page...... If you honestly think your playing a game of golf when you play a scramble.....all im going to say is....hit it long and strong




[/quote]

So, now I'm confused. You were saying that a scramble was not contrary to the Rules. And now you're saying a scramble is not a "game of golf".
[/quote]

are there clouds in your coffee ....... let me try to explain myself better so you may understand...... we have thee game of golf....and then we have games of golf derived from the game of golf.... all for the enjoyment and enhancement of others that may or may not want to partake in the purist form of golf.....a scramble generally has its own set of rules which are not generally held to the standards of thee game of golf....

if and when you play a scramble.....you are more then welcome to feel like you are or may violate the rules of the game of golf....myself, and i would guess many others.....dont feel that way....

do you think horse/pig/21 is held to the same standard of thee game of basketball????

[/quote]

See, now we're on the same page. My only point from the original post is this. I go to the golf course to have fun and enjoy myself. I do not go so I can worship the Rule book, although I have no problem with people that do. I was a rules official for 10 years and I think the Rules of Golf are one of the game's most interesting/frustrating aspects. But, if I want to scoop up a ball that is on the lip instead of hitting it into the hole I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

And the horse/pig/21 example is a perfect one. I'm sure there are basketball purists that only want to play the game with 5 on 5 on a regulation court. I would prefer 21 or 2-on-2.

[Debit]

My problem with not playing in accordance with the ROG is also realizing that my score is then meaningless. Shoot some great score over 18 and then have to admit, well, there was this muligan on #3 or OB/lost ball on another. However, if playing with an absolute newbie who is frustrated, there is nothing that erases the tension as much as telling them to just play the ball and ignore the score. This doesn't mean that he/she is unaware of the rules, just that current state of the game doesn't make ROG make much sense vs. enjoying the round and trying to gain the confidence to play better. Nothing is quite so frustrating as having some nob who hasn't had a bad lie all day or putted out from inside 6 ft boast about his score (yuk). I have opined about why So&So's score was better than mine and having the difference explained as the player had improved every lie. Came home when we were in the same tournament, and So&So could never play close to hdcp. As for returning to play OB/lost ball... just how much delay do you think there is when everyone gets a mulligan off the tee?

[jbl]

I don't want to waste a lot of space with quotes so I'll just respond. I own and operate a public coure and belong to a private one. At the club we play by the letter of the rules, play it down, putt everything out, etc. No round takes >4 hours. At my public course, they ignore every rule, play it up everywhere, hit from OB, take bad drops, anything you can imagine. They take 5 hours plus to to play 18. Slow play does not result from playing by the rules, we do it like breathing, it takes no time at all, like playing a provisional if you think it may be necessary.

[boo radley]

[quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051673' date='Nov 7 2009, 07:51 PM']well now....sounds like rules are for fools[/quote]

Not at all. But don't assert that bad players and slow players and even not-so-bad/not-so-slow players playing [b][i]strictly[/i][/b] under the Rules of Golf, won't slow things. It will.

It's weird, regardless -- how many golfers (beer aside) coming off 18 could even get a passing grade on the various Rules Quizzes the USGA and others offer? Maybe 2%? There's a huge disconnect between the masses and the Rules, is all I'm saying.

[offapex]

and you know, the guys on tour don't even play by the rules. don't they have a limited amount of time to hit, but when was the last time a player got penalized for slow play?

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='boo radley' post='2051763' date='Nov 7 2009, 08:54 PM'][quote name='OneBowTie' post='2051673' date='Nov 7 2009, 07:51 PM']well now....sounds like rules are for fools[/quote]

Not at all. But don't assert that bad players and slow players and even not-so-bad/not-so-slow players playing [b][i]strictly[/i][/b] under the Rules of Golf, won't slow things. It will.

It's weird, regardless -- how many golfers (beer aside) coming off 18 could even get a passing grade on the various Rules Quizzes the USGA and others offer? Maybe 2%? There's a huge disconnect between the masses and the Rules, is all I'm saying.
[/quote]

look I am not claiming to be some rule aficionado .... nor do I claim that I follow the rules 100 percent of the time.... I have no problem with people enjoying the game of golf and playing whatever variety of golf they choose....
I personally try to stay within the spirit of the game whenever possible....I will take the 12 inch in putt when playing with certain groups..... and with others....I respect their game and will put them all out.....

I agree that there is a huge disconnect from the rules of golf...but not just from the masses...... when is the last time you saw a pro make a move on tour without calling over a rules official to do something as simple as take a ball drop????

and as you can see from one of the above posters who recited a bunch of different rules to try and make his point..... the rules of golf to some extent still live in the past as the game itself has evolved ten fold....after all, golf was a game for the elite, and now is enjoyed by the masses.....

with that being said..... golf rules still seperate US from THEM.... take golf spikes for example.....WE wear soft spikes and have no option otherwise anymore.....

I also said that slow players come from all walks of golf....not beginners or otherwise.... I see far too often people mimicking what they see on TV....

I think the poster above who owns and operates a public golf course said it all..... doesnt appear that rules slow down his golf course....as he admits.... aint hardly a rule at all followed.....

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='shift' post='2051827' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:34 PM']and you know, the guys on tour don't even play by the rules. don't they have a limited amount of time to hit, but when was the last time a player got penalized for slow play?[/quote]


good point.....even though they are warned and live under that fear...and rarely do they allow any group other then the final or possibly final two groups to get too far behind......

other then that rule.....they definitely play by the rules of golf.....

[Bomb and Gouge]

I really don't have a problem with "inside the leather". As long as it's the same for everyone competing.

And "inside the leather" isn't 3-feet!!

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='shift' post='2051462' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:05 PM']you do realize that hitting a provisional takes time, right? i don't entirely disagree with you that slow players are slow, regardless of playing by the rules or not. but no doubt an average player of average speed playing by ALL the rules will slow things down.[/quote]

So your assertion is that the average player of average speed should not follow the rules so that play can be speeded?

This thread has been reduced to the ridiculous. People shooting 120, walking back to the tee on every hole, consulting the rule book and arguing over the proper drop, four putting until every putt drops...

Nobody is suggesting that someone playing such awful golf need to follow every rule. Generally speaking, after reaching double par, it is time to pick up.

What bugs me is using those examples as a rationalization that following the rules slows down the pace of play. And what further bothers me is the view that someone playing golf by the rules should be viewed with disdain.

It really comes down to pace of play. An aware golfer, even a bad one, should be able to play by the rules and keep pace. If a group is falling behind for [i]whatever reason[/i], I have no problems with them being required to pick up the ball and move on.

[Large David Hammer]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2052332' date='Nov 8 2009, 06:20 AM']This thread has been reduced to the ridiculous...

...What bugs me is using those examples as a rationalization that following the rules slows down the pace of play. And what further bothers me is the view that someone playing golf by the rules should be viewed with disdain.[/quote]

YES! How guilty of a conscience must they have?!?!?!?!

Only cheaters would react negatively toward someone who insists on playing by the rules. They get their comeuppance when they're get ABSOLUTELY KILLED in the B-Flight tourney at the club, by the guy playing to an HONEST, RULE-ABIDING, 12 against their "fast & loose with the rules" 8.

If the ball doesn't rattle the cup 18 times, (OK, a 3-inch kick-in excepted) they aren't interested in playing golf, shouldn't count it towards their HDCP, and should admit they're playing "golf-ish" games on a golf course. Match Play is different on the "conceded putts" level, of course.

edit: typos

[warren1992]

i know people that if they did break the rules they wouldnt call out a score at the end of the hole they would admit that it shouldnt count ..... which isnt that bad .. unlike people that would insist the score should count

[Sawgrass]

A few truths, non of which any post in this thread up until this point (or likely thereafter) will dissuade me from believing:

1) The real reason people shortcut the rules is that they don't wish to know what their scores really are.

2) The number of people behaving under the influence of truth number one above creates even more pressure to fool yourself about your score, as one is often in a position to compare it to other people's unrealistic scores in conversation.

3) It typically takes a little more time to play by the rules than to make some convenient ones up. So what? If you are really motivated to behave in such a way that benefits the timing of the golfers behind you, the best thing you can do is to not play at all. That's the fastest you can be.

4) If you decide you don't want to play by the rules, that's just fine. And probably better for those behind you. Have a great time. Just don't kid yourself as to what's going on.

[offapex]

i don't think anybody is saying "breaks the rules to speed up play AND count that score as real/legit". all "we" are saying is "on a busy Saturday/Sunday at the local muni please don't spend the allotted 5 minutes looking for your ball and walk back to the tee box for another shot--take a drop and a penalty." at least that's what i'm saying. and no one is saying, "if you have a bad lie, give yourself a better one to speed up play".

i'm not going to be the jackass who holds up everybody because i need to walk back to the where my ball last crossed the hazard (so I can make sure that my 105 is legit, instead of a cheating 104). and i hope the guy in front of me does likewise.

people don't seem to realize that little delays add up big time when tee times are stacked 7 minutes apart. maybe you are lucky enough to play at private courses with good spacing, but on a weekend at a public course, especially a muni, it's so packed that a few "by the rules" guys will cause major problems. tee times 7 min apart, 5 min looking for a ball just doesn't work.

[offapex]

[quote name='tjy355' post='2052332' date='Nov 8 2009, 06:20 AM'][quote name='shift' post='2051462' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:05 PM']you do realize that hitting a provisional takes time, right? i don't entirely disagree with you that slow players are slow, regardless of playing by the rules or not. but no doubt an average player of average speed playing by ALL the rules will slow things down.[/quote]

People shooting 120, walking back to the tee on every hole, consulting the rule book and arguing over the proper drop, four putting until every putt drops...

Nobody is suggesting that someone playing such awful golf need to follow every rule. Generally speaking, after reaching double par, it is time to pick up.

[/quote]

so you're basically saying high-handicappers shouldn't follow the rules, but low-handicappers should? now that's not following the rules.

[volrus]

I don't think anyone here (atleast not myself) is saying anyone should consider their score relevant if one doesn't play by the rules. I for one play by the rules unless I'm just out having some drinks and playing with some old friends. If I don't play by the rules then I consider my score irrelevant and certainly doesn't go toward my handicap.

I'm not trying to justify anybody not playing by the rules and certainly not saying the average player should not play by the rules just so one can play faster. I'm only stating that when someone plays by the rules it will inevitably lead to a round that take a little longer. This is in response to others saying that by playing by the rules rounds will NOT take any longer. There is noone that can convince me that it doesn't take a little longer considering the fact that atleast a couple of times a round something will happen that will require someone to go back and re-tee. Not to mention the 5 minutes that one has to look for his/her lost ball.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='shift' post='2052404' date='Nov 8 2009, 10:27 AM']i don't think anybody is saying "breaks the rules to speed up play AND count that score as real/legit".


i'm not going to be the jackass who holds up everybody because i need to walk back to the where my ball last crossed the hazard (so I can make sure that my 105 is legit, instead of a cheating 104).[/quote]


[quote name='volrus' post='2052413' date='Nov 8 2009, 10:34 AM']I don't think anyone here (atleast not myself) is saying anyone should consider their score relevant if one doesn't play by the rules.[/quote]

I frequently encounter players who break the rules by giving themselves 3-foot comeback putts for bogey (to "speed up play") and go on to consider their rounds legitimate. It seems to me to be more common than not. I am not saying that this applies to either of the posters I've quoted above, just that it is common, and the issue is present in this discussion.

On a separate note, I believe there is honor in a legitimate 105. A tip of my cap to all who play by the rules.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='2052374' date='Nov 8 2009, 10:04 AM']A few truths, non of which any post in this thread up until this point (or likely thereafter) will dissuade me from believing:

1) The real reason people shortcut the rules is that they don't wish to know what their scores really are.

2) The number of people behaving under the influence of truth number one above creates even more pressure to fool yourself about your score, as one is often in a position to compare it to other people's unrealistic scores in conversation.

3) It typically takes a little more time to play by the rules than to make some convenient ones up. So what? If you are really motivated to behave in such a way that benefits the timing of the golfers behind you, the best thing you can do is to not play at all. That's the fastest you can be.

4) [b] If you decide you don't want to play by the rules, that's just fine. And probably better for those behind you. Have a great time. Just don't kid yourself as to what's going on.[/b][/quote]

I think this pretty much sums it up for me.

I have no problem playing with guys who give themselves 10 foot gimmes or kick every tee ball back into the fairway, as long as they don't brag about shooting a 79 after the round. If they are just out there to have fun, i really don't mind. I've played several rounds this year where i was just out there to be out there, and if you set it in your mind that it's going to be a practice round and not count towards your cap, then who is anyone else to complain. Golf is supposed to be fun and some days i just don't feel like grinding over 4 footers.

i played with a guy this year at my club, in a round where i was just trying to get in a quick 9 before work. He marked down my score on every hole even though i told him i didn't want to keep it, He called a penalty on me because i grounded my club in a bunker (i was adjusting my pants and let the club lie against my leg) and then marked down my score with the penalty. I would just as soon quit golf then play with people like that every day.

[Pepperturbo]

Playing by the rules is an individual choice which says whether or not we can play the game as it was designed, and if we're progressing. That choice also indirectly speaks to character and judgment, and says whether or not theres an inclination to cut corners in life. You've heard it said "18 holes of golf is a microcosm of their life".

Generally I play the ball down, but that's not so say I haven't enjoyed “lift clean and cheat” or a “breakfast ball” with buddies when there's no opportunity for hitting a small bucket and warming up. However, when giving strokes to buddies that ignore rules and a wagers involved I play by the rules. Doing so gives me greater satisfaction when I win because I did so at a disadvantage; it also makes a few people that have a conscious feel uncomfortable knowing they didn't play by all the rules and still couldn't win.

Therefore in response to the OP, those that do not play by the rules of golf are NOT golfers; they just attempt the game of golf.

[HoosierGolfer]

[quote name='Bomb and Gouge' post='2050561' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:06 PM']I play by the ball down 100% of the time.
No gimme's
No mulligans
No fluffin'[/quote]
Enough said. I'm with you. I sure hope most of the posters in this thread have nothing to do with the First Tee program. Golf use to be a honorable game, but reading through this thread makes it clear that is not the case any longer.

Edit; To those that still play by the rules, I tip my hat to you!