No push carts allowed?!?!

[Headgames]

WTF?

So, today I got an invite to play a round at a local private course by a good friend of mine who caddies there. We show up at 8am, unload the clubs, and head to the pratice and chipping greens.

Now, I've been using a push cart for the last year since I screwed up my back, and generally find it easier than constantly picking up and putting down a 20 lb bag. As we're heading to the first tee though, the assistant pro comes up and tells me that the course doesn't allow push or pul carts. Being a guest, I didn't think it was my place to question the courses policies, so I apologized, bu the cart back in the car, and then we teed off. The rest of the round went off without a hitch, but I'm just totally confused by their "no pull-push carts" policy, ESPECIALLY considering half of the groups we saw on the course were in POWER CARTS!

Anyone else heard of this? What possible reason could the club have for this? I tried to think of one, but came up zeros.

[EnglishBob]

I don't know the reasoning, but have played a couple of courses with this rule, both private courses.

[Slapjax7s]

Some private courses who allow push carts charge there own members for "storage fees." This is not uncommon for a course especially with caddies and power carts.

Personally I think it's tacky when a guest brings their own cart.

[mtsmith]

maybe they have had problems with people rolling them over ther greens (not that it would hurt the greens too too much, unless they were soft or wet)

[arbitrage]

Considering it's a private course...

- They make money when someone rents a cart or gets a caddy. There is no money to be made by you bringing your own pushcart.
- Some members turn up their noses at pushcarts. They don't think it's "traditional".
- Some jackwagon probably rolled their cart over the pristine greens at the club and was caught by a senior member. I see this too often at some of the places I play.

[dbleag]

It's all about the income.

They probably don't allow members to carry their own clubs either.

[Harry Longshanks]

I know a high-end ($75+ weekends) muni that doesn't allow push/pull carts either. But you can carry or ride. I'm assuming its for the cart revenue because people would rather ride than carry.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283210868' post='2669817']
So, today I got an invite to play a round at a local private course by a good friend of mine who caddies there. We show up at 8am, unload the clubs, and head to the pratice and chipping greens.

Now, I've been using a push cart for the last year since I screwed up my back, and generally find it easier than constantly picking up and putting down a 20 lb bag. As we're heading to the first tee though, the assistant pro comes up and tells me that the course doesn't allow push or pul carts. Being a guest, I didn't think it was my place to question the courses policies, so I apologized, bu the cart back in the car, and then we teed off. The rest of the round went off without a hitch, but I'm just totally confused by their "no pull-push carts" policy, ESPECIALLY considering half of the groups we saw on the course were in POWER CARTS!

Anyone else heard of this? What possible reason could the club have for this? I tried to think of one, but came up zeros.
[/quote]


Less revenue. If you use your own cart - you only pay greens fee; carts bring in more revenue - i.e.- maintenance costs. It's sort of like going to sit in a restaurant and ordering water but no food.

[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574420891621636098.html"]http://online.wsj.co...1621636098.html[/url]

[DaveLeeNC]

Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave

[thechief16]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283265522' post='2671149']
Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave
[/quote]

They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283266423' post='2671175']


They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.
[/quote]

Might be ludicrous - but it is not all that uncommon. Don't know that I would call it 'the norm', but it isn't rare.

dave

[gjpep]

The private university-affiliated courses I play actually have more people who push a cart or carry than ride in a cart. There is no extra fee for walking or using a push cart. Interestingly, 2 local munis started to offer gas carts last year, in an effort to get more people to play ( and increase revenue)--I've been disappointed (from a health standpoint) to see how many carts are used on these very walkable courses (they previously only had a few carts for "handicap use").
Having read many posts in the push cart forum, it sounds to me that other countries (Oz, England, etc.)are much more "pro-walk/push cart". In terms of the concern about members being concerned about golfers pushing carts across the green, I seem to recall (but can't find the study) that a push cart with a loaded bag would have less effects on a green than a golfer walking across it (cart=20 lbs max + bag/clubs= no more than 20 lbs for 40 or less lbs. total distributed over 3 smooth wheels vs. 200+ lbs distributed over 2 feet/shoes with cleats (that they hopefully don't drag)). I personally see more damage from careless cart drivers driving where they shouldn't be in a cart that weighs at least 600 lbs + 2 bags/clubs + 2x 200+ lb riders. Clearly there are courses that have been designed in a such a way that aren't amenable to walking (from green to tee in most cases), and there are golfers who aren't physically capable to walk 9/18, but I feel that there should be an option to do so whenever feasible. If a person(especially younger ones) can save $15-25/round in this tough economy, and get some exercise as well, they might be more willing to choose to golf rather than some other activity. And a busier course with more walkers/pushers is better for the game than a closed/bankrupt course/club (of which we've had 2 in our area).

JMO--I could be wrong

[Rohlio]

I never understand the arguments against push carts...there is a lot less pressure on the ground from a 25lb. golf bag sitting on a three wheeled push cart than from a 250 lb. a hole and his pounding footsteps. By this kind of logic we should charge fat people more to walk on or around the green/teebox.

In my opinion it is very simply a money issue. The course is trying to fleece you for cart fee's or caddy fees knowing full well that most guys who use a push cart do so because although they like to walk their back won't hold up to carrying the bag.

I generally find members who are opposed to push carts to be the same ones who saunter out of their cart that they just drove right down the middle of the fairway and then proceed to move their belly out of the way while trying to look down and see the ball. Not all but certainly seems to be a trend.

[birdieboy52]

[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283210868' post='2669817']
So, today I got an invite to play a round at a local private course by a good friend of mine who caddies there. We show up at 8am, unload the clubs, and head to the pratice and chipping greens.

Now, I've been using a push cart for the last year since I screwed up my back, and generally find it easier than constantly picking up and putting down a 20 lb bag. As we're heading to the first tee though, the assistant pro comes up and tells me that the course doesn't allow push or pul carts. Being a guest, I didn't think it was my place to question the courses policies, so I apologized, bu the cart back in the car, and then we teed off. The rest of the round went off without a hitch, but I'm just totally confused by their "no pull-push carts" policy, ESPECIALLY considering half of the groups we saw on the course were in POWER CARTS!

Anyone else heard of this? What possible reason could the club have for this? I tried to think of one, but came up zeros.
[/quote]


Private clubs are too concerned that hand carts will make them look like the golf course of the great unwashed, the lowly publinxer. My club allows walking, riding, hand carts, Segways, battery operated hand carts, whatever works. Half of the membership walks

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283216406' post='2670062']

Less revenue. If you use your own cart - you only pay greens fee; carts bring in more revenue - i.e.- maintenance costs. It's sort of like going to sit in a restaurant and ordering water but no food.

[/quote]

Not a good analogy. More like ordering a meal but no appetizer or desert.

I do agree that many times, it is a revenue thing. There is also a lot of old school cultural mentality that views the hand cart as lower class. (see the comment in reply #3)

Personally, I think anything that encourages walking is a good thing.

[thechief16]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283266731' post='2671180']


Might be ludicrous - but it is not all that uncommon. Don't know that I would call it 'the norm', but it isn't rare.

dave
[/quote]
Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".

[Greenie]

I don't know if it is a revenue issue or not. I do know this one course I play it is a revenue issue. They charge one fee which includes a cart if you so choose to use it. If you want to walk, you can , with a pull cart or carrying your bag but you still are going to pay the same fee as a cart user.,

[PennsyltuckyMike]

I am really glad that today is the first time I have ever heard the phrase "Trail fee". I really, really hope that it is also the last.

[Slapjax7s]

It's simple...the course wants to make money. The Pro sometimes gets half the carts, so when guests bring their own, the Pro gets nothing.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283266423' post='2671175']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283265522' post='2671149']
Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave
[/quote]

They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.
[/quote]

By the same token - walkers still take divots and "damage" the course as much as the cart renters.

The course doesn't stay pretty on it's own. It costs.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283277070' post='2671559']

By the same token - walkers still take divots and "damage" the course as much as the cart renters.

The course doesn't stay pretty on it's own. It costs.
[/quote]

I have sand and seed on my push cart and on my carry bag for divots....and if you think that two people in a cart driving on the grass does the same amount of damage as a walker or a person with a push cart that is just silly. You pay your greens fee/dues to play the course, that should include the cost of course maintenance. You pay the cart fee in order to have the convenience of riding around the course in something that does cost the course money to purchase/maintain/charge/clean/ etc. Charging extra for somebody who is not using one is just greed plain and simple.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283275238' post='2671493']

Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".
[/quote]

While 'my club' does tend to be predominantly retirees, most folks just join the cart club (free use of carts for a quarterly fixed fee). I believe that this would include trail fees as well. So it is just an additional (and optional) cost of being a member.

dave

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1283280254' post='2671679']


I have sand and seed on my push cart and on my carry bag for divots....and if you think that two people in a cart driving on the grass does the same amount of damage as a walker or a person with a push cart that is just silly. You pay your greens fee/dues to play the course, that should include the cost of course maintenance. You pay the cart fee in order to have the convenience of riding around the course in something that does cost the course money to purchase/maintain/charge/clean/ etc. Charging extra for somebody who is not using one is just greed plain and simple.
[/quote]

If this was a public course I agree.

The OP was talking about a private club....greens fees alone won't allow most of them to make budget.

They make money off the shirts/hats/pro shop; cart fees; and food. The OP was paying none of that. So he's costing the course money.

If the actual cost of operating the course were put into greens fees - most clubs would lose their membership - b/c they think like you do.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283210868' post='2669817']
So, today I got an invite to play a round at a local private course by a good friend of mine who caddies there. We show up at 8am, unload the clubs, and head to the pratice and chipping greens.

Now, I've been using a push cart for the last year since I screwed up my back, and generally find it easier than constantly picking up and putting down a 20 lb bag. As we're heading to the first tee though, the assistant pro comes up and tells me that the course doesn't allow push or pul carts. Being a guest, I didn't think it was my place to question the courses policies, so I apologized, bu the cart back in the car, and then we teed off. The rest of the round went off without a hitch, but I'm just totally confused by their "no pull-push carts" policy, ESPECIALLY considering half of the groups we saw on the course were in POWER CARTS!

Anyone else heard of this? What possible reason could the club have for this? I tried to think of one, but came up zeros.
[/quote]

Quite common private club policy. Its influenced by the clubs culture. My last club didn't allow them either. Members either took a golf cart, a caddie or carried their bag. When I got on the board some of us eventually swung the vote for push carts. But, because we didn't want to see old ragged cheap looking carts, we went out and bought a number of identical push carts and offered them free to membership. Club management then was responsible for keeping each push cart in TOP shape. It comes down to appearance and how the club wants to be perceived by other private clubs.

It always sounds odd to people that are NOT use to private club bylaws, but they do have a purpose. Not all that different from living in a development that has a powerful HOA.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283275238' post='2671493']
Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".
[/quote]



Not that there is any particular relevance here, but for the sake of 'completeness' ...

You can 'walk for free' during twilight hours that start as early as 2:00 pm in the winter and as late as 5:00 pm in the summertime.

dave

[Rohlio]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283283485' post='2671809']
If this was a public course I agree.

The OP was talking about a private club....greens fees alone won't allow most of them to make budget.

They make money off the shirts/hats/pro shop; cart fees; and food. The OP was paying none of that. So he's costing the course money.

If the actual cost of operating the course were put into greens fees - most clubs would lose their membership - b/c they think like you do.


[/quote]

I am a proprietary member of a private club, Our dues cover the maintenance of the course. We don't get charged to walk on a course that we the members own. The pro makes money from cart rentals. His staff maintains and pays for them. If they started charging those of us who don't use them additional to walk on a course we the members own we would simply vote it down or remove the pro. I don't understand how this is even a question. Especially at a private club, maybe at a semi-private and of course at a public which needs to generate revenue to stay in business. A private club on the other hand is not a money making enterprise in the first place.

The OP was invited to play as a guest of a member at a private club. I presume he paid a greens fee ( or the member paid it for him) for playing the course, as any non-member would. He was denied the use of his pull cart but still played the round without paying them another dime for the right to do so, why? because that is what a greens fee is for! Also how do you know they didn't buy lunch and drinks or get a few beers. Maybe he bought a shirt. The question is why should he not be allowed to use a push cart, if he is allowed to walk while carrying his bag? What detriment is there to anyone?The only one who made a salient point about this is Pepperturbo in commenting that you don't want a bunch of rickety looking crap around the club if it is trying to come off as particularly upscale. So do the same thing you do with the dress code.

[Slapjax7s]

[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1283284392' post='2671833']


I am a proprietary member of a private club, Our dues cover the maintenance of the course. We don't get charged to walk on a course that we the members own. The pro makes money from cart rentals. His staff maintains and pays for them. If they started charging those of us who don't use them additional to walk on a course we the members own we would simply vote it down or remove the pro. I don't understand how this is even a question. Especially at a private club, maybe at a semi-private and of course at a public which needs to generate revenue to stay in business. A private club on the other hand is not a money making enterprise in the first place.

The OP was invited to play as a guest of a member at a private club. I presume he paid a greens fee ( or the member paid it for him) for playing the course, as any non-member would. He was denied the use of his pull cart but still played the round without paying them another dime for the right to do so, why? because that is what a greens fee is for! Also how do you know they didn't buy lunch and drinks or get a few beers. Maybe he bought a shirt. [b]The question is why should he not be allowed to use a push cart, if he is allowed to walk while carrying his bag? What detriment is there to anyone?[/b]The only one who made a salient point about this is Pepperturbo in commenting that you don't want a bunch of rickety looking crap around the club if it is trying to come off as particularly upscale. So do the same thing you do with the dress code.
[/quote]


You are blowing this way out of proportion. Obviously the golf course has a rule that guests can't use their own carts. Why is this such an issue? Do you go to a Professional sports event and bring your own seat? No thats what the ticket price is for.

The club wants to make money with their own products so he can either carry his own bag and just pay the GREENS FEE or he can use THEIR CARTS and pay additional. The Detriment is the club OR pro won't make any more money. Golf clubs are in business to make money.

[atlanta golfer]

A fairly upscale semi-private club near me (Georgia Club near Athens, Ga) allows carrying anytime, as an alternative to rental golf carts, but does not allow hand carts. Same as the situation experienced by the OP. As others have commented, I think the stereotype image of people with hand carts is that of a dirt track muni, even though a lot of upscale people use them. Allowing carry bags might also be a concession to a lot of junior and college golfers. They know that most people will choose to rent the electric carts, but a hardy few golf purists will remain happy if they allow carrying. Kind of an inexpensive compromise for the course where they generate so much revenue from the electric carts. Since I carry when I can, this kind of policy makes me happy, even though I know it somewhat defies common sense.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='Slapjax7s ' timestamp='1283285789' post='2671883']
You are blowing this way out of proportion. Obviously the golf course has a rule that guests can't use their own carts. Why is this such an issue? Do you go to a Professional sports event and bring your own seat? No thats what the ticket price is for.

The club wants to make money with their own products so he can either carry his own bag and just pay the GREENS FEE or he can use THEIR CARTS and pay additional. The Detriment is the club OR pro won't make any more money. Golf clubs are in business to make money.
[/quote]

Surprisingly private golf clubs ( at least those based on equity memberships) are NOT in business to make money. They exist as a collection of dues paying proprietary members who want to have a club they couldn't afford on their own. Private clubs and their staff ( Which includes the Pro's) are in the "business" of servicing their members.

Also I question your reading comprehension. The Club didn't say he couldn't use "His" push cart, they said he can't use a push/pull cart at all; i.e. they don't have them for him to use even if he paid them for one. His choices were walk ( like you want to) and carry your bag, or pay for a Riding cart. By all means if a club wants to make a policy that you cannot use your own outside push/pull carts I am fine with that. But to say you can't use one at all just seems very odd to me. If a course allows walking, and a person wants to walk but can't carry their bag for 4 hours, should their only alternative be to Ride? I personally would rather go home than play a round of golf in a Riding cart, it is just so wrong to me.

On a side not actually a lot of people do bring their own seat to sporting events...Haven't you seen anybody at a college football game with those seats that fit over the bleachers? Why because the seat they provide you with is terrible. Also how does that analogy even relate to what happened here. The equivalent analogy is you pay the ticket price to get into the event and then they require you to also pay a "sitting fee" if you actually want to sit down in the chair you already paid for in your ticket price.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283275238' post='2671493']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283266731' post='2671180']


Might be ludicrous - but it is not all that uncommon. Don't know that I would call it 'the norm', but it isn't rare.

dave
[/quote]
Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".
[/quote]

Asking that question is exactly why most (not all) private clubs prefer that new members have prior private club expereince. Costs are never black and white, and after joining it always cost more then is perceived.

Let me try and explain it this way... how a private club is structured has a great deal to do with what costs what; P&L corporate run, owned by benevolent benefactor (one man or LLC consortium) or equity are the most common. I've been on the leadership committee of corporate owned and the executive board of an upscale equity.

Initiation fee is just to get into the club, and it typically goes into a special operating fund for capital expenditures. Monthly membership dues cover basic facility operating expenses; essentially covers unlimited golf for the member ... that's all.

If the club has food and beverage facilities, that's why there are quarterly minimums typically $125-300. If it has a locker room, renting a locker has a cost monthly ($20-30) if they have a shoe care person, that's a monthly ($25) or weekly cost. If you use a golf cart that's a cost each time you go out. If the member has his own golf cart,(most clubs have cart restrictions) he pays a trail fee annually which is $600-$800. Some upscale clubs only allow golf carts to members that actually need them due to physical limitations. Otherwise all members carry his/her bag without cost or use caddies. Caddy cost can vary around 1k-1500 per month on top of dues.

Typically additional fee's such as trail fee and any additional pass through member costs are charged to a members account in Jan of each calendar year, so that January's bill can be a whopper. Tipping normally isn't allowed so when holidays come up there's usually an amount added on to the members bill to accumulate a pot that's divided up among employees, such as Xmas. There are other costs but those are the most common.