Is conventional club fitting theory everything it is made out to be?

[andrevanderpost]

Interesting experience that disputes conventional thinking

Ok so I am one of many who over the last few years have really gotten onto the club fitting bandwagon, however I am now a little uncertain (to say the least) about the current fitting techniques and theories. Whilst they may work for the vast majority of golfers, they most certainly do not not necessarily apply to, or work for for everyone. I will use my own personal situation as an example of where the current theories and approach to fitting do not work.

I am a decent golfer (scratch) that can play pretty close to my index even only playing once a week. My driver swing speed is about 108mph and my 6 iron around 90mph. I have a pretty flat swing plane and a strong lag in the downswing with a very late and aggressive release. Because of all of the above I tend to hit the ball decent distances but continuously fight a strong draw/hook (10 - 20 yards) and high ball flight. I used to hit a power fade, but over the last few years have lost the ability to move the ball left to right at will. In an attempt to get back to hitting a power fade, or at worst straightening out the hook to a a manageable draw, I have relentlessy pursued the advantage of having the correct equipment fitted to my needs.

I have my own club workshop, and also know plenty about fitting, but because I wanted to be certain that I was getting the right advice and guidance, over the past year, I have been to a number of very well known golf shops and a few small and very reputable fitters. When anyone sees my numbers on the launch monitor, the same answer/advice is given (even the likes of Mizuno's swing optimizer thingy gave the same answer). Tour weight irons shafts (Dynamic Gold, PX, KBS, etc.) with X-flex soft-stepped once to help with the lag and aggressive release in a players CB or blade. Given that I prefer the looks of blades/players CB's and using the conventional wisdom when trying to reduce the draw/hook shape and lower the ball flight, I have always ended up with players irons (as little offset as possible), 2* flat with soft-stepped x-flex shafts. The only bad thing is that the hook hasn't gone away and in fact it has just gotten worse. It seemed that the heavier/stiffer the shaft the more I hooked the ball. In absolute desperation I went to my local Golfsmith, chased away all the eager Sales people, and took every players club they had available to demo in S300, X100, PX 6.0 and KBS and hit balls. Surprise, surprise - every shot hit went left, and the heavier/stiffer the shaft demoed the further left it went, irrespective of club head shape or brand.

I was becoming really desperate and very despondent (I don't want to play the game if it means having to aim 30 yards right every time I hit an iron), so I tried something that went against all conventional wisdom, I took a stock Burner 2.0 in the stock 85gr stiff shaft - i.e. something as far in the opposite direction from that which I have played my entire life, a GI shovel with lots of offset and namby-pamby shaft. Not knowing what to expect, I hit the 6 iron 3 or 4 times, and then looked at the numbers. I was absolutely astounded by the results. Nice launch, good levels of spin and a 3 to 6 yard FADE! No ballooning high ball flight, no hook. So I hit a few more, this time trying to work the ball both ways - once again, nice small controlled draws and fades, knock downs etc. To say I was shocked was a complete understatement.

Given that I had a nice store credit I bought a set, knowing I could return them under playability when no doubt the experiment didn't work out (surely it wouldn't) and after much soul searching took them out to play a few holes a couple of days later. Deep down I was really hoping that the launch monitor session was a strange abomination and that I would hit them all over the place with a massive hook, as I didn't want to believe that GI irons were going to help me enjoy the game again and actually score better, let alone how ugly they look in the back compared to nice sleek and sexy blades. Well I hit them on the range with some pretty crappy range balls and I couldn't draw any conclusion, so it was time to "man up" and hit the course for a few holes of real life testing against one of my players sets (CG1 Tours, 2* flat with S300 shafts).

First hole - short par 4. Four iron off the tee, soft 3 yard draw about 220 yards, flat ball flight leaving 100 yards in - hit a knock down AW to about 10 feet. I also played the same hole with my CG1 Tours (S300, 2* flat). Four iron, 210 yards, 20 yard hook, couldn't play a second as the ball was in a bush.

Second hole, long par 5 with a creek at about 280y and another in front of the green, hazard left, OB right. Given that I wasn't testing my driver, another 4 iron off the tee, this time with the intention of hitting a soft fade for position. Result 215y with a 5 yard fade. The CG1 Tour 4 iron - 220y with a 20 yard draw into the hazard (I set up down the left to hit the fade). Second shot, another Burner 4 iron, this time with a soft draw for position, to about 120 out on the left side of the fairway and then the AW to 8 feet. OK so now I am starting to believe what I found out during the launch monitor session. I then hit a series of 4 irons and AW's back down the fairway to test out consistency of carry, ball flight and accuracy. I was amazed that for both irons, the shot dispersion was really tight.

The upshot is that I am sorry to say that all my nice fancy/sexy/sleek players clubs with their heavy/stiff shafts are not going to see the course very much, and I will play the Burner 2.0s, until, for some reason they fail (given the ho that I am, that might be after one round),but I think they will be in the bag for a long time, because it is more fun hitting great long irons, consistent short irons, and putting for birdie from 10 feet than it is having to hack the ball out the rough and aiming 30 yards right to hit greens, short siding yourself when you miss and having to get up and down 10 times a round to shoot in the low seventies.................

I will report back more after I have a few competitive rounds in the Texas wind under my belt this spring..............................

[tyorke1]

Really interesting post, keep us updated, your buddies are going to make fun of you with the g i's ,

[ajgoodal.704]

You think its possible that its mental? When you look down at address with a club with little to no offset, your brain tells your hands they need to work more and boom you hook?? I only ask because I think at times that happens to me. I hit more hooks testing players clubs than with game improvement sets. My swing doesn't change, but I get the feeling my hands take on a life of their own.

[PINGWRXforeme]

I just want to say that your "post" is the first 9 paragraphs ive read on awhile. great info. Just wish I had an answer.

[Jc0]

I think it's probably the shaft making the difference. You are releasing the club head at the same time with both sets. The difference is because the burners are lighter the club head get to the ball sooner so the head is square, but when you use your heavier club you have more time to release the club causing the face to be shut by the time you reach the ball. If your going to game the burners for a while try throwing a DGSL in one of your players irons and see if the hook goes down. I use DGSL in my MP 67 and they work fine.

[tbomb]

Just keep in mind they are longer because they are strong lofted. Besides that....makes no sense at all. Have fun playing great golf tho

[smoky25]

Are you putting the same swing on the Burners or are you easing up a bit on them? Can you intentionally hit a 20-30yd hook with the Burners? If so, does that swing feel like your CG1 swing?

[andrevanderpost]

Just a little more feedback and update (also answer some of the really good question posed)....

1. It is the same swing for the Burners as for the CG1 (and other players clubs).

2. I think my swing may have a shaft weight "break point". By this I mean above a certain weight, and below a different weight (call them a weight ceiling and floor) I seem to hook the living daylights out of a club. I tested this theory both indoors on a LM and outdoors to confirm the numbers. I hit a players club with an Nippon 950gh, SLS300 and a lightweight stiff graphite shaft (70gr or so)............. All hooks. Hit GI clubs with similar shafts, pretty much the same hooky result. So now the last test is to find a decent shaft (probably an Aerotech) with .355 tip to put into a players iron and test the last remaining combination.

3. The theory about the shaft weight and the release etc. does make sense and I think fits in well with what I posted in my first "essay".

4. Yes I can hit the 30yd hook with the Burners (and a similar fade) when I want to.......

The best part of this, is that the wind doesn't make the ball balloon (into the wind). Also I seem to be better with the 2.0 AW and SW than I am with traditional Players wedges (which by the way look exactly like the 2.0 wedges at address) - this goes for both full shots and around the green.

More to come as I get additional rounds under my belt.................

[anth]

I always thought that players clubs are designed for the player who wants to move the ball throughout the air. GI clubs are designed for the player who wants to stop the ball moving through the air i.e. hit it straight. This has been my experience.

Blades and players CBs have a lower MOI. They will twist more on even a slightly off-centre hit, accentuating the shot shape through the air. The GI club will resist twisting a little more, making for a straighter ballflight.

With regards to the shaft, maybe the (relatively) softer tip is providing higher launch and thus more backspin and less sidespin?

Just some thoughts...

[Howard_Jones]

Funny story, but I think there are logical answers to all of this.

First of all, when you constantly hit them to the left, and your swing is OK, its most likely a lie angle question.
- Your players irons are 2* FLAT ? - Is that lie angle set after testing on a lie board?

If that's your lie angle with players head, it would be more upright on a Gi head.
When you tested clubs, and they all go to the left, what lie angle was on this clubs, and did you check with a lie board?
Lie angles are set due to the amount of toe drop the player gains in the down swing, but the longer the C-dim and softer the shaft, the more toe drop and vice versa. So when they moved more and more to the left the stiffer the shaft became, its all how it should be, due to less toe drop, and even wronger lie angle as shafts gets stiffer (to upright) . 1* to upright gives 10 yards to the left of target on a 160 yard shot. (2* gives 20 yards)

I don't think you treat us club fitters with much respect, when you don't provide the fundamentals. Trackman numbers, and answer on the question, did you check for lie angles on the clubs tested?

Its also things that is pointing in the direction of instability in your swing, but without LM numbers, I can only guess, due to the difference in those to club heads, and your response to them. There are a few but important measurements on a club head, who will change the way the ball flight.

- C-Dim - The distance from the centre of the shaft and out to the club heads COG . On players irons its a bit against the heel, and Gi a bit against the toe compared to ideal centre of face. Players club heads are not as wide as GI heads, so the C-dim difference, makes different toe drop on the same shaft. (more toe drop on a Gi Head compared to Players heads). Your Burner heads weight 3 grams more = even more toe drop.

A-RCOG - The distance from the surface of the face, and back to location of COG. This measurement is LOW on a Players iron, and HIGH on a Gi iron. The further back from the face COG gets, the more stable direction you will get. Oposit will a players iron be easyer to make fade and draws with caused by a smaller ARCOG value. ARCOG is much more important than MOI when we talk forgiveness in direction on miss hits (out against heel or toe)

A-VCOG - The distance from the leading edge and up to the level of COG in the club head. The lower this number is, the more spin and launch will be transferred to the ball, all other equal.
Its about the difference in height between the COG in the ball, and the COG in the club head. If those to comes on level, spin almost stop, only launch from the loft will be back.
A players iron got a high AVCOG value, to reduce backspin and unwanted ballooning. Reduced backspin will also give more power to the side spin axis,( the % side spin vs backspin raises) witch makes 2 factor who is beneficial for making fade and draws, but also the unwanted ones, and that's were you and your swing comes in.

You are not stable enough in your swing this days to play good with a low RCOG value and a high VCOG value, and that's it :-(
- Here are the numbers on the club heads you got now, so read what I'm telling above, and see for your self.
The answer is that you actually needs the help from the Gi irons, due to a bad swing at the moment.


Brand --------- / Model / Year / Head Weight / C- Dim / MOI / Act-RCOG / Loft / Act- VCOG

Cleveland ---- / CG1 Tour / 2005 / 259 / 1,127 / 11,8157 / 0,670 / 30 / 0,709
Taylormade / Burner #6 / 2010 / 262 / 1,318 / 15,4035 / 0,530 / 27 / 0,911


If you like the DG x-100 soft stepped, get them for your Burners. If spin and launch drops to much, tweak the lofts, cause you got 4* less pr iron than you are used to, and that's why they are not ballooning even with a high AVCOG number. But don't forget to set lie angles correct, so you impact the ball with a leading edge square to target. Your CG Tours might not be right either. One bad shot on the mats on the range = upright 1-2* from where it was. It happens all the time with forged clubs.

My 2 cents only.....Work on your swing, or stay happy with your Burners :-)

[WhiteBettinardi]

Great post

[andrevanderpost]

Howard, your knowledge of club physics is awesome and I really appreciate your input, all of which I respect. The lie angles were checked (I have a complete fitting capability myself, with only the absence of a LM). I also thought that the lie angle might be the problem, so we actually bent some of the demo irons to fit my lie-board reading (and even went flatter than recommended). This had virtually zero impact on the curvature of the ball flight.

We also monitored the impact position of the strike, which being a scratch golfer I expected to be pretty consistent in the sweetspot of the club, which it was.

The biggest fault I have in my swing is getting caught too far on the inside (under the plane) on the downswing, with a very, very late and aggressive release of the club head (at times it can almost be likened to the dreaded "puck" or slap-shot release). What I find with the lighter shaft, and thus lighter overall weight of the club, is that I am able to keep my swing on plane better. As you said, lack of stability in the golf swing that I just don't have the time to practice enough to fix (which I alluded to in my first post). I am almost certain that it is the shaft that is providing the improved results rather than the GI club head, but at this point I don't seem to be giving anything up in respect of playability with the GI head and certainly gain some forgiveness on those shots I do miss.

I guess though, that the score at the end of the round is what really counts, and I must admit, without having the time to really put in lots of practice, I am enjoying putting for birdie (using the 2.0's) more than putting for par, like I have been doing.

All-in-all, I will be sticking with the Burner 2.0's because what I give up in cosmetics is more than recovered in the fun I am having.

Lastly, I my original post was aimed more at the "retail" type fitters who don't understand that their is more to fitting an individual than swing speed, spin rate and launch angle, and also to prod any of the other good golfers out there, like me, who don't get to play as often as they used to (2 small kids will do that to you), to be preapred to look beyond their current perceptions of what is the right 'fit' for them. Sometimes I think we get so wrapped up in what the LM numbers say, that we forget that it is the numbers we write down on the scorecard that actually count.

Once again thanks for your inputs and commentary, they are truly appreciated.
Andre

[Skitzo71]

I am going to go the opposite way and over simplify what you are experiencing.. as a thought.

Maybe the lower end, softer shaft is delaying your release enough to straighten you out. Your aggressive move through impact may be too aggressive and the tour shafts are responding too well causing the hook.

My SS is a little higher than yours, 98 smooth 5i, 103 if I jump on it. I have a very smooth swing naturally and can move the ball both ways. I play a PX 7.0 soft stepped once and love them.

When I hit a low end stiff or even regular shaft, I don't ballon them, I get a very neutral flight, I have to really work to draw them, but I dont lose them right as convention would say I should.

I don't think your swing goes against conventional club fitting, I think your swing is more suited to softer shafts because of your aggressive move through impact.

[Hacker1979]

This place never fails to amaze me. Great information in here guys.

[ZBigStick]

Fantastic conversation.

Many theories explored and tested.

I still feel the shot is a result of 70% swing, 30% equipment. But where is the fun in that?

[Mick Ill Son!]

I must concur with Howard. The Burners produce less sidespin by design. In addition we are ignoring the fact that the stock length is longer in the burners resulting in a clubhead which will return to square a little slower. In addition, people generally like to feel the shaft load. If one does not feel this they often release harder in an effort to create this feeling. A sound swing will not produce a 20 yard draw (mid iron)with any club.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='andrevanderpost' timestamp='1299890987' post='3047640']
Howard, your knowledge of club physics is awesome and I really appreciate your input, all of which I respect. The lie angles were checked (I have a complete fitting capability myself, with only the absence of a LM). I also thought that the lie angle might be the problem, so we actually bent some of the demo irons to fit my lie-board reading (and even went flatter than recommended). This had virtually zero impact on the curvature of the ball flight.

We also monitored the impact position of the strike, which being a scratch golfer I expected to be pretty consistent in the sweetspot of the club, which it was.

The biggest fault I have in my swing is getting caught too far on the inside (under the plane) on the downswing, with a very, very late and aggressive release of the club head (at times it can almost be likened to the dreaded "puck" or slap-shot release). What I find with the lighter shaft, and thus lighter overall weight of the club, is that I am able to keep my swing on plane better. As you said, lack of stability in the golf swing that I just don't have the time to practice enough to fix (which I alluded to in my first post). I am almost certain that it is the shaft that is providing the improved results rather than the GI club head, but at this point I don't seem to be giving anything up in respect of playability with the GI head and certainly gain some forgiveness on those shots I do miss.

I guess though, that the score at the end of the round is what really counts, and I must admit, without having the time to really put in lots of practice, I am enjoying putting for birdie (using the 2.0's) more than putting for par, like I have been doing.

All-in-all, I will be sticking with the Burner 2.0's because what I give up in cosmetics is more than recovered in the fun I am having.

Lastly, I my original post was aimed more at the "retail" type fitters who don't understand that their is more to fitting an individual than swing speed, spin rate and launch angle, and also to prod any of the other good golfers out there, like me, who don't get to play as often as they used to (2 small kids will do that to you), to be preapred to look beyond their current perceptions of what is the right 'fit' for them. Sometimes I think we get so wrapped up in what the LM numbers say, that we forget that it is the numbers we write down on the scorecard that actually count.

Once again thanks for your inputs and commentary, they are truly appreciated.
Andre
[/quote]

You have my apologizes for suspecting you to NOT have lie angles under control, so I guess we must say that blades needs more play time to work good, even for a scratch player

If you get tired of your burners, and want something with less offset, but still a high ARCOG value, take a look at Tom Wishon (560MC ) or the new RAZR Tour, or JPX800 Pro. They are far from a blade, but still very playable and nice to stand over at address :-)

[andrevanderpost]

I think the plan is going to be to game the Burner 2.0's whilst I work on my swing on the range. Eventually I do want to go back to something a little more pleasing to the eye and feel, but until I get the swing sorted, I'm going to leave the GI irons in play. It will be a nice challenge to see if I can get my swing back to where I want it, and then go back to good-looking irons......

Andre

[rybo]

I'll leave the clubhead COG's and lie angle out of the equation and say it has to do with the weighting of the club. To maintain a 'normal' swingweight with the lighter shafts, heavier heads have to be used or a pretty big jump in length. The heavier the shaft the more swingweight increases for identical head weight and length clubs. Conversely the lighter the shaft the more swingweight decreases for identical head weight and length clubs.


You probably can feel the clubhead much better throughout the swing. Then add to that that the club is lighter overall and easier to control. If you maintain swingweight at say D2, the [u]balance point[/u] moves towards the head.

You actually are getting a two fold benefit, an overall lighter club that perhaps provides more distance (or is much easier to achieve your current distances) and more mass where it's really needed, in the head.

Taylormade lists the 2.0's at D3.5 and the 7-SW have pretty standard lengths. The 3-6 irons are slightly longer but rather insignificant, so the heads have to heavier.

On another note you could even say the 2.0's are shorter then their standard counterparts based on loft which pushes this whole weighting premise that much further. A 2.0 5 iron has 24* degrees of loft and a 38.25" length. Most companies still call 24* irons 4 irons (think of your CG1's) and those 4 irons have a length of 38.5".

[andrevanderpost]

Ok, so after thinking through the comments everyone has made, and especially the insightful views of Howard Jones, I decided to try something as I was not enjoying the look of the long/mid irons in the 2.0s.

Whilst in Singapore this last week, I picked up a set of the "Japan only" 2010 Burner TP irons (supposedly the same as the Burner B tour issue heads), and shafted them up with KBS Tour shafts (stiff). These heads are vastly different from the original Burner or 2.0s in that they are more compact, less offset and have thinner soles. That being said, they are also progressive throughout, and the short irons are very close to a traditional cavity-back players club whilst the longer irons are more like a GI with the look of a players club.

Played with them on Sunday morning - didn't even get a chance to test them on the range, and WOW............No hook. So this would point the reality that the shaft (weight) is not really the reason, but as Howard pointed out, most likely to do with the dimensions of the head and the impact of the more GI designs in the head to help reduce side spin.

All-in-all I think that these irons are the perfect compromise between Players and GI irons. I do not understand why Taylormade never brought these to retail here in the US as I think they would be a real hit (even at the increased price for the "soft cast" heads like the R9 TP 'B's).

Andre

[Babycakes]

[quote name='andrevanderpost' timestamp='1300743311' post='3075184']
Whilst in Singapore this last week, I picked up a set of the "Japan only" 2010 Burner TP irons...

Played with them on Sunday morning... and WOW............No hook.

All-in-all I think that these irons are the perfect compromise between Players and GI irons. I do not understand why Taylormade never brought these to retail here in the US as I think they would be a real hit.
[/quote]

This is not at all surprising to me.
Again and again some folks find it necessary to bad mouth JDM kit, but it's a fact:
The Japanese have very high standards, and if you want to sell kit in that market, you gotta make it your best!
I'm glad you found out though what was going on.
I was thinking it was probably the late "slap shot" release... too much sideways whip (for lack of a better way of putting it).
But there is always a solution.

P.S. Mr. Jones seems to know what he's talking about!!!
Might we have another Joe Kwok spreading the love on GolfWRX?
I'll be keeping my eye out for more of his posts.
Ciao.