New Wishon forged players' irons

[golfbum9]

When you take into account all of Wishons design [u]firsts[/u] in the industry that fill his portfolio. and has had offers to design for major oems, but chose to focus on the custom fitting aspects and its importance- speaks volumes to me.

Also, his books hold a plethora of no nonsense information that every golfer should read in my opinion.
If I were to play an all one oem bag- it could easily be Wishon Golf

Definitely looking forward to seeing their new 2012 offerings!

[Cwebb]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1320876171' post='3780589']

Offset on the new 575MMC is 2mm straight through the set from 3 to AW, not progressive. Main design element that makes the 575MMC not as forgiving as the 5560MC and more of a lower handicapper's set is the shorter blade length. Whenever you reduce blade length you automatically bring the MOI down.

But this being our 4th forged carbon steel iron set, all this was by intent because with our 4 forgings we can run the gamut in game improvement from most to least in order - 560MC then 555C, then 575MMC and then the all blade 555M.

TOM
[/quote]

That's great news. 2mm of offset is IMO perfect for a player's iron and I've never understood the need to have progressive offset for a design in this category.

I was quite surprised to read that you have the 555c ranked as more forgiving than this new 575 design? Does the new one have a shorter blade length than the 555c, or more to the point what is it that would make it more "demanding"?

[Stretch]

I was quite surprised to read that you have the 555c ranked as more forgiving than this new 575 design? Does the new one have a shorter blade length than the 555c, or more to the point what is it that would make it more "demanding"?

Wishon ranks their irons on a number of quite precise (surprise, surprise! :)) metrics. My guess is the 575s will be very close to the 555Cs in practice but that a shorter blade length, less offset in the long irons and maybe slightly thinner topline will combine to make them "less GI" in theory. The current model lineup comes in as follows:

 

 

[TomWishon]

[quote name='9woodfan' timestamp='1320877421' post='3780687']
We need more Leftie options Tom... Us hockey playing Canadian lefties are hurting! :-)
[/quote]

I do hear you and believe me, it pains me to not be able to tool up more of our models in left hand. The curse of being a small company that always insists on creating its own original clubhead designs is that we do have to pay the tooling and die costs for every clubhead model we design. Many companies in the component side of the golf business use what are called open models - head models that are created by the foundries themselves and made available to companies who cannot or do not do their own design work to put their logo/name/artwork on and sell them as their own models.

Tooling die costs are not insignificant - for a set of forged irons, the forging dies required to make an iron model run $5K per head number at minimum. For drivers, it runs in the area of $3K per head model/loft. During my 26 yrs in clubhead design, I've never seen a left hand clubhead model sell more than 8% of the total units it will in the RH version. In the US, 6% of all golfers are left handed, in Canada it is 15%, but the blended average ends up being 8% in terms of actual units. So when you are a smaller specialty company as we are, tragically we have to look at that 8% number and do the math to determine if it could possibly be viable to do the left hand tooling in a model.

Even with that obstacle, for 2012 we are adding on the left hand version of the 929HS fwy woods, a left hand 11* and 13.5* version of our re designed 919THI drivers, and a left hand version of our 979SS inv cast irons to bolster the left hand offerings. But sadly, I have to be honest and tell you that doing a left hand forged carbon steel iron just can't happen because of the much higher cost of the forging dies.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1320890197' post='3781551']

I was quite surprised to read that you have the 555c ranked as more forgiving than this new 575 design? Does the new one have a shorter blade length than the 555c, or more to the point what is it that would make it more "demanding"?
[/quote]

The new 575MMC has two reasons I rank it a step below the 555C for off center hit forgiveness. First is because it has a shorter blade length than the 555C. Second is because the 575MMC is designed as progressive cavity from the #3 to #7, then a progressive muscleback for the #8 to AW. So since the full set does include musclebacks and is not an all cavity back as the 555C is, that puts its overall forgiveness one step below that of the 555C.

BTW, this was the first time we used CNC machining to create the entire back design of a muscleback for the #8, 9, PW, AW heads in the set. We'd previously pioneered that production technique on our 560MC irons to create that very deep back cavity on all the heads in that model. Doing CNC machining to create the cavity back on the 575MMC #3, 4, 5, 6, 7 therefore involved most of the same CNC machining work as for the 560, but then using the CNC machining to create the back of the muscleback was a little different. But worked out very well to create a really interesting and nice appearance along with the shapes.

TOM

[Stretch]

Very interesting. Thanks Tom. If you don't mind me asking, what gap is the 575MMC intended to fill? What will they offer a decent player over, say, an equivalent combo set of 555C/Ms?

[Timmay_MO]

Why all of these forged irons when in your book you stated there wasn't any difference?

[Tumba]

How will the 739CCG differ from the R11 and the Titliest D2?

[Nessism]

Why all of these forged irons when in your book you stated there wasn't any difference?

 

Forged feel baby!!!

 

The ball don't care, but sensitive golfers love to pleasure themselves with that buttery soft forged goodness.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Timmay_MO' timestamp='1320947867' post='3784175']
Why all of these forged irons when in your book you stated there wasn't any difference?
[/quote]

To the golfer interested in forged carbon steel irons, the SHAPE/STYLE/LOOK of the head overall and in the address position is at the very top of most forged players' list of requirements for whether they will play the head or not. Close behind that comes the feel and performance of the head.

Within what will be the 4 sets of forged carbon steel irons in our line in 2012, the run down on their differences are as follows:

1. 560MC Forged Deep Cavity back - Longest blade length (82mm) and largest blade size, with the highest MOI (3050 g/cm2 on the 5-iron) and best off center hit forgiveness because it has by far the deepest cavity on the back, created by CNC machining the entire cavity from the blank back raw forging.

2. 555C Forged Cavity Back - Medium Blade Length (79mm), more compact size head, and not as deep of a back cavity as the 560MC, this is for the forged player who wants the head size to definitely be traditional but who still realizes he wants some off center hit forgiveness. MOI of the 555C (2075 g/cm2 on the 5-iron) ranks second to the 560MC.

3. 575MMC Mixed Cavity and Muscleback Forging - Shortest Blade Length (76mm) so the heads are all definitely at the most compact forged iron size for those who like that smaller size in their forgings. Cavity from the 3-7 to offer some off center hit performance for the lower to middle lofts, but pure muscleback on the #8-PW, AW for no real off center hit forgiveness.

4. 555M Forged All Muscleback - a pure blade design all the way from 3 to wedges, but with a blade length of 79mm and profile to match with the 555C so if a golfer wants a custom mix and match set of cavity/blade, he can choose to do that anywhere in the set he desires with the 555C as the cavity partner in the set makeup. MOI is the lowest (1025 g/cm2 for the 5-iron) so the off center hit forgiveness is the lowest.

So each model has its own features both in shape/style/look as well as in performance gradations to offer to the golfers who want to play a true forging.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Tumba' timestamp='1321217721' post='3796017']
How will the 739CCG differ from the R11 and the Titliest D2?
[/quote]

TUMBA:

739CCG is being designed and offered as more of a specialty driver head model for golfers who need more extremes in fitting options for lie, face angle, length and weight distribution. 919THI is still going to remain the real flagship driver model to cover the fitting needs of the widest range of golfers.

1) We had a number of clubmakers who wanted a driver head they could build to longer 46-47" lengths - we also had requests for a driver head that could be built to very short lengths (41-42") for golfers who have real problems hitting any driver. With the specialty weight screw options designed for the 739CCG head, the headweight could be as low as 192g up to as high as 229g, with all weighting done in the head.

2) We also had requests for more extremes in lie fitting and face angle fitting in a driver head. I did not wish to do a driver head with an adjustable hosel piece for several reasons. a) having designed the first adjustable hosel piece in 1995, I knew it was not possible to make these things offer more than a +/-2* change in the lie and face angle. b) these adj hosel pieces are not cheap - they add a pretty good chunk to the head production and selling cost. To have to bump the price of the head up by $20 just to get a +/-2* option change in lie and face angle was not something I wanted to do. And because I did do the first adjustable hosel piece woods in 95, I did not want to do another one now and have people label us as "copying" the big companies.

So I chose to expand the lie and face angle fitting side of this driver by using a soft titanium hosel on the head, designed long enough to allow it to be bent +/-4* for lie and face angle adjustment. Yes, it does have to be bend adjusted like the way loft and lie are done on irons. Yes, it requires the clubmaker to have a metal wood bending machine to do it - or we'll do it on custom orders for the heads at our company. So no, you can;t go to the driving range with a wrench and play with its lie and face angle adjustment - it is to be fit to the golfer's needs by the clubmaker or by us. But you get a +/-4* change, not just +/-1.5 or 2.

3) Using different weight screws on the head to offer the headweight range from 192 to 229 also allowed us to design these screw recepticles to put the weight screws wherever we wanted. I knew from having designed the first draw bias driver head in 1995 that to really deliver a visible change in ball flight shape, you have to be able to put over 35 grams into the heel area of the head. Same in the toe side for fade bias. No way we could do that with any driver head of >400cc size, so we located the two screw holes very close to the face and as far on the back of the head as possible to allow golfers/clubmakers to experiment with using heavy/light screws forward/back for lower launch/lower spin, or, light/heavy screws forward/back for higher launch/higher spin. Testing of the prototypes in August/Sept showed a 2 to 2.5* difference in launch for the extremes of 2g/16g screws shifted forward/back or back/forward - and 500rpms in spin for a 100mph clubhead speed. MOre speed means more spin difference, less speed will mean less spin difference.

So all in all the 739CCG is NOT a replacement for the 919THI drivers - 919's still stand as the widest range of fitting options for the widest range of golfers while the 739CCG is more of an extreme or specialty driver head design.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Stretch' timestamp='1320942281' post='3783845']
Very interesting. Thanks Tom. If you don't mind me asking, what gap is the 575MMC intended to fill? What will they offer a decent player over, say, an equivalent combo set of 555C/Ms?
[/quote]

Stretch:

Specific to your question, the 575MMC have a 76mm blade length through the set while the 555C/555M combo has a 79mm blade length through the set. Some golfers prefer that more compact blade length, so that's one difference. Many forged irons are designed with blade lengths below 79mm these days, so the 575's 76mm blade lengths allow us to offer golfers something more compact to meet that potential desire.

555C/555M allows the golfer to put the break between cavity [C] and muscleback (M) anywhere in the set makeup they desire - since we tooled the 555C's in #2 - SW and the 555M's in #3-SW, the golfer can choose to go cavity down to wherever he wants and then take the muscles on from there.

575MMC starts its life as a "frozen" mix and match set of cavity to muscleback in the sense that the set is tooled to offer cavity to the 7 iron, then muscle from the 8 onward to the wedges. IF. . . if there is more demand through 2012 to broaden the break in the cavity to muscle set makeup, we may then tool the rest of the cavitys from 8 to wedges and we may tool the rest of the muscles from the 7 up to the long irons. We'll just have to wait and see the reaction on that.

But also there is one other element of a more "selfish nature", or other wise described as Tom wanting to try something that hadn't been done before!!! HA! Back when we did the 560MC forged irons, this was the first time anyone had used CNC machining to literally cut out the entire back cavity shape from a raw blank back forging. I did that simply to push the MOI and off center hit forgiveness of a forging higher than had been done before.

All other cavity back forgings up to this time and most made since, all form the back cavity in the same forging process used to shape the whole head. When you forge, you simply "push metal somewhere else" - you never remove any metal. Hence there is a definite limit in terms of how deep you can make the back cavity. Through traditional forging, you cannot make the back cavity come anywhere close to the depth you see on investment cast irons - and because of this, you cannot make the MOI or the off center hit forgiveness in a traditional forged cavity back iron to come anywhere close to that of an investment cast iron.

560MC's proved that we could offer the "best of both worlds" - true soft carbon steel forging but with a super deep back cavity for top level off center hit performance.

But no one had ever tried to do a CNC machined back muscleback before - and while that's not a huge deal for performance as it is with a CNC machined deep cavity back, it still is something that I was curious to see if we could do and end up making a really good looking and playing muscleback. So that's why I said I did this 575MMC for somewhat "selfish reasons" - to see if we could do a good looking/playing blade by CNC machining the back of a raw forging.

Sometimes you have to have fun too when you design heads!!!!!

TOM

[matt mohi]

why the teasing... why?

I know! Kinda hoping that with a bit of luck we'll lure Tom in here to get some more info out of him.

 

 

Although if the "cosmetic tweak" to the 560s is replacing the medallion, then he'll need to have worked hard to make a better-looking CB, in my opinion.

 

 

This looks really good. Is this the current 560MC. I've recently been on his site and the 560MC there does not look like this. Thanks.

 

You're right...that photo was an early prototype that we were working on...what we introduced was nearly the same, the only difference was that there was no channel cut into the bottom of the back of the cavity...that's solid thru the set as we thought it looked better and there was not performance advantage to having that material removed. Also, a little easier to clean....

[justhackin]

Guys I was lucky enough to spend about three hours with Tom and Matt in the Wishon shop a couple of summers ago. If more folks had this opportunity I can assure you the Wishon line would be more prevalent in the market. Not once, even though it was their busy season, did I feel pushed to leave. In fact I was the one that had to quit talking and get on the road. He is one of the most articulate and interesting folks I have had the pleasure of talking to in any field. It is obvious as to why his line is filled with quality product.

Give his stuff a try you won't be disappointed!

hackin

[Stretch]

It's January next week. Can we have some 575 pictures, pretty please?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Stretch' timestamp='1325276754' post='4006333']
It's January next week. Can we have some 575 pictures, pretty please?
[/quote]

lol +1!

I'm not too proud to beg!

[KYMAR]

Tom if you drop by this thread, i do have a question. Which forged model would carry the highest center of gravity? Also, is the center of gravity on either the toe or heel side on the 555c and M? Thank you!

[slicktry]

I wish TWD's would be able to be bought as a component. I understand the need of a clubfitter for the average joe, but I'm completely able to do the work myself, plus I full well know what I need. Would be waaay more tempted to buy a set of heads if so given the chance. BTW, the 919thi White is awesome. Probably going to be messing with several shafts this year in it.

God Bless
Jer

P.S., in emailing TW several times, He is one of the most down to earth and approachable designers out there. Totally sees the need to interact with his customer base, which is the sole reason for me buying the 919 thi in the first place.

[WVP]

[quote name='slicktry' timestamp='1325298450' post='4007729']
I wish TWD's would be able to be bought as a component. I understand the need of a clubfitter for the average joe, but [b]I'm completely able to do the work myself, plus I full well know what I need. Would be waaay more tempted to buy a set of heads if so given the chance.[/b] BTW, the 919thi White is awesome. Probably going to be messing with several shafts this year in it.

God Bless
Jer

P.S., in emailing TW several times, He is one of the most down to earth and approachable designers out there. Totally sees the need to interact with his customer base, which is the sole reason for me buying the 919 thi in the first place.
[/quote]

Hey Jer. From what I understand if you're competent at clubmaking you can fill out their application and get an account to order direct from Wishon. Unless something has changed....

[Woodie]

Since it is january: are there any pics out of the new 575MMC? I am excited!

[Myherobobhope]

Nothing new on his website...

I'm planning on getting custom fitted into a set at some point this summer.

[stg113]

I got an email from Wishon Golf with the preview of the new irons. I really like the way the new 575 mmc's look. I said I wasn't going to be buying any new irons this year, but I may change my mind. Atleast I'm going to get a 8 and 7 iron to try them.

[attachment=980413:575-Group1.jpg]

[N2N2]

[quote name='stg113' timestamp='1326419431' post='4074619']
I got an email from Wishon Golf with the preview of the new irons. I really like the way the new 575 mmc's look. I said I wasn't going to be buying any new irons this year, but I may change my mind. Atleast I'm going to get a 8 and 7 iron to try them.

[attachment=980413:575-Group1.jpg]
[/quote]

Wow! I'll bet those are great. Good looking. Wishon is one cool cat.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='stg113' timestamp='1326419431' post='4074619']
I got an email from Wishon Golf with the preview of the new irons. I really like the way the new 575 mmc's look. I said I wasn't going to be buying any new irons this year, but I may change my mind. Atleast I'm going to get a 8 and 7 iron to try them.

[attachment=980413:575-Group1.jpg]
[/quote]

Damn, those are good looking irons.

[WpgMike]

Those 575's look amazing.

[stg113]

All there new stuff is on the web page now. The new wedges look great as well.

[carrera]

The 575's look nice. What is that different-colored section of the cavity...a gray-ish color? Looks like some sort of insert.

I will be checking with my local clubmaker about trying out a few of the clubs. For me, the 5, 8 and PW are the clubs that I always look at to determine if they pass the first inspection.

[Stretch]

The "divots" in the backs are visually unfortunate in what is otherwise a stunning head. Hard to tell from the pictures, but are they painted? Lofts are also stronger than I would have expected. Need to see these in the flesh (metal).

[TomWishon]

[quote name='carrera' timestamp='1326434511' post='4075917']
The 575's look nice. What is that different-colored section of the cavity...a gray-ish color? Looks like some sort of insert.
[/quote]

Those grey areas on the photo are milled indentations to remove some mass from the center area of the heads. The grey comes from silicon glass bead blasting on that little cavity depression area. It is not painted and not any type of insert. Photos are really tough to take and transfer to see all the detailed milled features on the backs of these heads. As such the 575mmc's are definitely a model that needs to be seen with the eyes.

Thanks much,
TOM

[QuigleyDU]

I'm curious why is wishon considered by many that I talk to as second tier clubs? What are they not on the same level as say scratch that every one here fawns over?


Honestly asking not trying to be rude.