Pine Valley

[fairways4life]

Why no majors there?

I've never been to Pine Valley and can only imagine how great of a course it is. It always seems to top every list of top courses in every golf magazine. And I've heard it's pretty darn tough too.

I've always wondered though, if it's such a great course and is such a great test, why have there never been any majors held there? To me, the ultimate compliment to a course is if the USGA or PGA desire to hold their major championships there.

Is it not a "spectator-friendly" venue? Does the ownership just not want to host a major? Some other reason??

Just curious. Every time I see the lists of top courses I always wonder about this.

[Northside Matt]

Isn't Pine Valley a men-only club?

[fairways4life]

[quote name='Northside Matt' timestamp='1328026647' post='4184767']
Isn't Pine Valley a men-only club?
[/quote]


I believe it might be. But even if it is, would that matter? Would they not let women in as spectators?

[TxFrog]

Yes there would be no room for spectators.

But IMO the best reason is WHY? The members already play at a pristine course that is well known as one of the best in the world, they don't need anymore recognition. Also do the members want to allow an outside agency to take over their course in the middle of the summer (where members wont be able to play)? The PGA of America or USGA might harm the course along with all the stands and video towers and equipment.

If I were a member of Pine Valley, what would having a major bring to the table?

[stevopagolf]

(1) Members have no interest in hosting. Nor do they need the money. It is a men only membership

(2) Course is not conducive to spectators and stands.

(3) Tough course but probably a touch short, they have lengthened it recently....nasty little tee boxes tucked away.

It is a great course for sure

[fairways4life]

[quote name='TxFrog' timestamp='1328027579' post='4184837']
Yes there would be no room for spectators.

But IMO the best reason is WHY? The members already play at a pristine course that is well known as one of the best in the world, they don't need anymore recognition. Also do the members want to allow an outside agency to take over their course in the middle of the summer (where members wont be able to play)? The PGA of America or USGA might harm the course along with all the stands and video towers and equipment.

If I were a member of Pine Valley, what would having a major bring to the table?
[/quote]


I can see your points about the USGA and PGA fudging with the course. And if there's no room for spectators I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want any trees removed or dirt pushed around or anything like that just to accomodate spectators.

But in regards to the other part of your post, If I were a member, I'd think it would be pretty cool to add some history there. I mean, who wouldn't want to watch a major being played on their home course? The course has everything there is except one thing --- the history. Hosting a major only shuts down play for the members for about 2 weeks. It's not like it's for the whole summer. And giving up 2 weeks of playing once every 5 or 6 years is not such a huge sacrifice. I've played a couple courses that have hosted majors and it's pretty cool to walk those fairways knowing all the history that is there.

Just my two cents.

[scratchswinger]

From Wikipedia:

Tournaments at Pine ValleyAlthough it is regarded as one of the greatest courses in the world, Pine Valley has not played host to any major professional golf tournaments, mostly because there is not enough room on the course to accommodate tens of thousands of spectators. The club has stated that they have no intentions to remove trees or change the layout of the course in order to host a major tournament.

The only time Pine Valley ever had mainstream exposure was a 1962 Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match between Gene Littler and Byron Nelson. The club does allow the public in for one day in late September every year to watch the Crump Cup, a nationally recognized tournament featuring elite Mid-Amateur players.[3]

Pine Valley also played host to the Walker Cup, an amateur competition between teams from the United States and Great Britain & Ireland, in 1936 and 1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Valley_Golf_Club

[sharkiesj]

The PGA Tour is beneath them. They don't care about having a tourn. there, for a "feather in their cap" or any kind of publicity at all. Besides, they already host the Crump Cup (usually in Sept.?) every year and anybody/everybody can walk all over the course.

[Northside Matt]

[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328027090' post='4184803']
[quote name='Northside Matt' timestamp='1328026647' post='4184767']
Isn't Pine Valley a men-only club?
[/quote]


I believe it might be. But even if it is, would that matter? Would they not let women in as spectators?
[/quote]

I don't know about the USGA and PGA of America, but the PGA Tour has a policy against using men's-only clubs as tour venues. I was wondering if the USGA and PGA of America were in agreement. Based on the other responses, it doesn't seem like the men's only status matters.

[2ball]

[quote name='sharkiesj' timestamp='1328034886' post='4185591']
The PGA Tour is beneath them. They don't care about having a tourn. there, for a "feather in their cap" or any kind of publicity at all. Besides, they already host the Crump Cup (usually in Sept.?) every year and anybody/everybody can walk all over the course.
[/quote]

+1
They don't need the PGA. It's their club. They want to be left alone.

StoneBridge CC in Naperville used to host the LPGA Keebler Tourney for about 4 years. The novelty wore off and they didn't renew their agreemnt because the membership lost their course for a minimum of 2 weeks prior and when they got it back it was trampled. Not to mention they need a lot of volunteers. At Elite clubs you are not going to members to volunteer. Cog Hills' Dubsdread closes down more than 2 weeks out for a PGA event, I can't imagine how long a course would be closed prior to a major.

[Drewrealty]

Not to mention that they would lose a lot of playing time hosting a tournament, limited play prior to the event, changes and alterations to the course...Pine Valley members probably are not interested in that, season is short enough in the NE. Just my .02

[jwfgolfpro]

[quote name='Northside Matt' timestamp='1328026647' post='4184767']
Isn't Pine Valley a men-only club?
[/quote]

Women can play Sunday afternoons for sure. My wife and I played two years ago. Stayed at the Dormie House. Very cool.

JWF

[CPSOX]

[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328028300' post='4184905']
I mean, who wouldn't want to watch a major being played on their home course? The course has everything there is except one thing --- the history. Hosting a major only shuts down play for the members for about 2 weeks. It's not like it's for the whole summer. And giving up 2 weeks of playing once every 5 or 6 years is not such a huge sacrifice. I've played a couple courses that have hosted majors and it's pretty cool to walk those fairways knowing all the history that is there.
[/quote]

You're wrong on nearly every point. Hosting a major is an incredible time, course and $ commitment. When hosting, its nearly inevitable your course will undergo mandatory changes, will have MUCH of the spring/summer lost to very restricted play (guests/carts/and even member play) to increase conditioning and it will undoubtedly be a madhouse for the months preceeding and following the tournament. As a dues paying member, that's a lot of money to pay to not have the full use of your club for quite some time.

[murph9095]

[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328026457' post='4184749']
I've never been to Pine Valley and can only imagine how great of a course it is. It always seems to top every list of top courses in every golf magazine. And I've heard it's pretty darn tough too.

I've always wondered though, if it's such a great course and is such a great test, why have there never been any majors held there? To me, the ultimate compliment to a course is if the USGA or PGA desire to hold their major championships there.

Is it not a "spectator-friendly" venue? Does the ownership just not want to host a major? Some other reason??

Just curious. Every time I see the lists of top courses I always wonder about this.
[/quote]

THANK YOU! finally someone other than me recognizes the fact that pine valley is ranked so so high yet it is never on tv or ever featured. It makes you think do they rank these courses just on how exclusive it is?

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='murph9095' timestamp='1328328983' post='4210125']
[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328026457' post='4184749']
I've never been to Pine Valley and can only imagine how great of a course it is. It always seems to top every list of top courses in every golf magazine. And I've heard it's pretty darn tough too.

I've always wondered though, if it's such a great course and is such a great test, why have there never been any majors held there? To me, the ultimate compliment to a course is if the USGA or PGA desire to hold their major championships there.

Is it not a "spectator-friendly" venue? Does the ownership just not want to host a major? Some other reason??

Just curious. Every time I see the lists of top courses I always wonder about this.
[/quote]

THANK YOU! finally someone other than me recognizes the fact that pine valley is ranked so so high yet it is never on tv or ever featured. It makes you think do they rank these courses just on how exclusive it is?
[/quote]

It's ranked high because it is a great golf course. Being on TV or hosting a tournament does not make it a better course. Pine Valley is #1 or #2 in four different magazine rankings how much more prestige can it command?

If I were a member at such a place, I certainly wouldn't want the USGA coming in an mucking up my course either.

[fairways4life]

[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1328303505' post='4207449']
[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328028300' post='4184905']
I mean, who wouldn't want to watch a major being played on their home course? The course has everything there is except one thing --- the history. Hosting a major only shuts down play for the members for about 2 weeks. It's not like it's for the whole summer. And giving up 2 weeks of playing once every 5 or 6 years is not such a huge sacrifice. I've played a couple courses that have hosted majors and it's pretty cool to walk those fairways knowing all the history that is there.
[/quote]

You're wrong on nearly every point. Hosting a major is an incredible time, course and $ commitment. When hosting, its nearly inevitable your course will undergo mandatory changes, will have MUCH of the spring/summer lost to very restricted play (guests/carts/and even member play) to increase conditioning and it will undoubtedly be a madhouse for the months preceeding and following the tournament. As a dues paying member, that's a lot of money to pay to not have the full use of your club for quite some time.
[/quote]


I can agree on the part about not wanting to undergo any changes to the course.

But the timeline you speak of isn't true. I know for a fact that at Pinehurst, both times the Open was held there it was only shut down for resort play about a week before the tournament. It was closed the week before but literally two weeks before the Open was being held there you could play it. And then it re-opened for play like 2 days after it ended. It was closed for maybe 16 days total. Not exactly "MUCH of the spring and summer" that you speak of. And that's only once every 5-8 years when a major would come around, not like it's happening every summer. You wouldn't sacrifice just a few rounds on your home course to see a major played there?

To each his own. We all have our own opinions and that's fine.

[squash3b]

Anyone who is a member of the Philadelphia Golf Association will have the opportunity to play Pine Valley this summer on July 23rd under competitive conditions. Pine Valley is hosting the Philadelphia Open this year. The contest is open to any amateur or professional with a handicap of 7 or lower. Of course you must qualify first, but to get a chance to play PV, why not? Here is a link to the site for those interested:

http://gapgolf.org/event.asp?cmd=ev&id=5&evid=1199&qevid=0&rpage=event.asp

[36allday]

I don't know about women, but I do remember in 1991 the PGA dropped Cypress Point from (what is now) the AT&T National Pro Am because they would not admit an African-American member.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328453297' post='4217525']

I can agree on the part about not wanting to undergo any changes to the course.

But the timeline you speak of isn't true. I know for a fact that at Pinehurst, both times the Open was held there it was only shut down for resort play about a week before the tournament. It was closed the week before but literally two weeks before the Open was being held there you could play it. And then it re-opened for play like 2 days after it ended. It was closed for maybe 16 days total. Not exactly "MUCH of the spring and summer" that you speak of. And that's only once every 5-8 years when a major would come around, not like it's happening every summer. You wouldn't sacrifice just a few rounds on your home course to see a major played there?

To each his own. We all have our own opinions and that's fine.
[/quote]

HUGE difference between a private club and a resort course holding a major.

The timeline i gave is correct.

PS - I'm a member at 2 clubs that host USGA Championships.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='murph9095' timestamp='1328328983' post='4210125']

THANK YOU! finally someone other than me recognizes the fact that pine valley is ranked so so high yet it is never on tv or ever featured. It makes you think do they rank these courses just on how exclusive it is?
[/quote]

It's ranked #1 because its the best course on the planet.

Bar none.

[SurfDuffer]

If you're a member of The Golf Association Of Philadelphia and are good enough to make the cut by playing one of two qualifying tournaments you could play tournament golf at Pine Valley this year in the Gap Open Tournament.

[J13]

They don't need the money and don't want the bother of people especially the USGA destroying their golf course. Despite what people think the USGA does not have the best turf minds in the world or even this country. Look what they did at Congressional for the Open. They DESTROYED the blue course for months and even some fairways of the gold. It was terrible playing there after the open.

[fairways4life]

[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1328477740' post='4219663']
[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328453297' post='4217525']
I can agree on the part about not wanting to undergo any changes to the course.

But the timeline you speak of isn't true. I know for a fact that at Pinehurst, both times the Open was held there it was only shut down for resort play about a week before the tournament. It was closed the week before but literally two weeks before the Open was being held there you could play it. And then it re-opened for play like 2 days after it ended. It was closed for maybe 16 days total. Not exactly "MUCH of the spring and summer" that you speak of. And that's only once every 5-8 years when a major would come around, not like it's happening every summer. You wouldn't sacrifice just a few rounds on your home course to see a major played there?

To each his own. We all have our own opinions and that's fine.
[/quote]

HUGE difference between a private club and a resort course holding a major.

The timeline i gave is correct.

PS - I'm a member at 2 clubs that host USGA Championships.
[/quote]


I can see the longer timeline for a situation like Pine Valley that has never hosted a major before, having to remove trees and do all kinds of other stuff to get it "major ready." But that really should be a one shot deal. Once it's ready for majors the shutdowns after that first year shouldn't be more than a couple weeks. What are other examples? Pinehurst was the only one that I knew of for a fact. What about Atlanta last year for the PGA --- how long were they shut down? And how would a private course be different from a resort course? (I ask that as a serious question, not as argumentative)

[kg92lefty]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1328493392' post='4220933']
They don't need the money and don't want the bother of people especially the USGA destroying their golf course. Despite what people think the USGA does not have the best turf minds in the world or even this country. Look what they did at Congressional for the Open. They DESTROYED the blue course for months and even some fairways of the gold. It was terrible playing there after the open.
[/quote]

didnt they also destroy and completely dry out the greens at southern hills? when goosen won?

[J13]

[quote name='kg92lefty' timestamp='1328503767' post='4221983']
[quote name='J13' timestamp='1328493392' post='4220933']
They don't need the money and don't want the bother of people especially the USGA destroying their golf course. Despite what people think the USGA does not have the best turf minds in the world or even this country. Look what they did at Congressional for the Open. They DESTROYED the blue course for months and even some fairways of the gold. It was terrible playing there after the open.
[/quote]

didnt they also destroy and completely dry out the greens at southern hills? when goosen won?
[/quote]

I'm not sure about that one but it wouldn't surprise me. I think the best minds in the USGA aren't on their Tour setup side at all.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328500100' post='4221565']
I can see the longer timeline for a situation like Pine Valley that has never hosted a major before, having to remove trees and do all kinds of other stuff to get it "major ready." But that really should be a one shot deal. Once it's ready for majors the shutdowns after that first year shouldn't be more than a couple weeks. What are other examples? Pinehurst was the only one that I knew of for a fact. What about Atlanta last year for the PGA --- how long were they shut down? And how would a private course be different from a resort course? (I ask that as a serious question, not as argumentative)
[/quote]

Revenue. A private club's dues paying members pay whether they play or not. Nobody on the tee sheet at a resort course (Pebble/Pinehurst) or a public (Torrey Pines/Bethpage) means no revenue.

Play is usually very restricted during the months prior to a major. It usually means no carts and very, very limited guest play. This is done to perfect conditioning and to put in all the of the infrastructure needed to host the tournament.

[murph9095]

[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1328477841' post='4219679']
[quote name='murph9095' timestamp='1328328983' post='4210125']
THANK YOU! finally someone other than me recognizes the fact that pine valley is ranked so so high yet it is never on tv or ever featured. It makes you think do they rank these courses just on how exclusive it is?
[/quote]

It's ranked #1 because its the best course on the planet.

Bar none.
[/quote]

have you ever played there or is that what you read. thank you now shut up

[Outlier]

Hosting a tour event (let alone a major) is not a 2 week proposition. even taking money out of the equation, there is a tremendous amount of infrastructure to be brought in. I watch Quail Hallow, and can tell you it's at minimum a four month impact on the club (and that's what we can see as we drive by) - tractor trailors, heavy equipment, new grass, burying wires, erecting concession stands, suvenier tents, etc., etc, etc.

...and then they have to take it all out.

Hell, i'll drive by tomorrow and wouldn't be surprised if they are already moving stuff around for the May event. I'll take a pic.

If you have ever been to Augusta, you will note that a lot of it's stadium feature are permanent, so they just plug and play.
[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328028300' post='4184905']
[quote name='TxFrog' timestamp='1328027579' post='4184837']
Yes there would be no room for spectators.

But IMO the best reason is WHY? The members already play at a pristine course that is well known as one of the best in the world, they don't need anymore recognition. Also do the members want to allow an outside agency to take over their course in the middle of the summer (where members wont be able to play)? The PGA of America or USGA might harm the course along with all the stands and video towers and equipment.

If I were a member of Pine Valley, what would having a major bring to the table?
[/quote]


I can see your points about the USGA and PGA fudging with the course. And if there's no room for spectators I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want any trees removed or dirt pushed around or anything like that just to accomodate spectators.

But in regards to the other part of your post, If I were a member, I'd think it would be pretty cool to add some history there. I mean, who wouldn't want to watch a major being played on their home course? The course has everything there is except one thing --- the history. Hosting a major only shuts down play for the members for about 2 weeks. It's not like it's for the whole summer. And giving up 2 weeks of playing once every 5 or 6 years is not such a huge sacrifice. I've played a couple courses that have hosted majors and it's pretty cool to walk those fairways knowing all the history that is there.

Just my two cents.
[/quote]

[CPSOX]

[quote name='murph9095' timestamp='1329105517' post='4272751']
[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1328477841' post='4219679']
[quote name='murph9095' timestamp='1328328983' post='4210125']
THANK YOU! finally someone other than me recognizes the fact that pine valley is ranked so so high yet it is never on tv or ever featured. It makes you think do they rank these courses just on how exclusive it is?
[/quote]

It's ranked #1 because its the best course on the planet.

Bar none.
[/quote]

have you ever played there or is that what you read. thank you now shut up
[/quote]

Yes, of course I've played it. Also, my vote counts in the rankings as well.

Any other questions?

[fairways4life]

[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1329108008' post='4273061']
Hosting a tour event (let alone a major) is not a 2 week proposition. even taking money out of the equation, there is a tremendous amount of infrastructure to be brought in. I watch Quail Hallow, and can tell you it's at minimum a four month impact on the club (and that's what we can see as we drive by) - tractor trailors, heavy equipment, new grass, burying wires, erecting concession stands, suvenier tents, etc., etc, etc.

...and then they have to take it all out.

Hell, i'll drive by tomorrow and wouldn't be surprised if they are already moving stuff around for the May event. I'll take a pic.

If you have ever been to Augusta, you will note that a lot of it's stadium feature are permanent, so they just plug and play.
[quote name='fairways4life' timestamp='1328028300' post='4184905']
[quote name='TxFrog' timestamp='1328027579' post='4184837']
Yes there would be no room for spectators.

But IMO the best reason is WHY? The members already play at a pristine course that is well known as one of the best in the world, they don't need anymore recognition. Also do the members want to allow an outside agency to take over their course in the middle of the summer (where members wont be able to play)? The PGA of America or USGA might harm the course along with all the stands and video towers and equipment.

If I were a member of Pine Valley, what would having a major bring to the table?
[/quote]


I can see your points about the USGA and PGA fudging with the course. And if there's no room for spectators I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want any trees removed or dirt pushed around or anything like that just to accomodate spectators.

But in regards to the other part of your post, If I were a member, I'd think it would be pretty cool to add some history there. I mean, who wouldn't want to watch a major being played on their home course? The course has everything there is except one thing --- the history. Hosting a major only shuts down play for the members for about 2 weeks. It's not like it's for the whole summer. And giving up 2 weeks of playing once every 5 or 6 years is not such a huge sacrifice. I've played a couple courses that have hosted majors and it's pretty cool to walk those fairways knowing all the history that is there.

Just my two cents.
[/quote]
[/quote]


Yes, I believe it takes far more than two weeks to install everything. I never suggested that. I only suggested that the course would only be closed for play for a couple weeks. Yes, they would be doing work around the course and bringing in trucks and grandstands and what not but they would still allow people to play while it was going on. Again, my example was that one of my golf buddies played Pinehurst in '05 about 10 days before the first practice round.

I have no doubt that things already may be taking place at Quail Hollow. But the course will not be closed for play for four months. My guess is that the course is closed for play for 2-3 weeks, tops.

And I keep going back to the point that a major only comes around once every several years. At Pinehurst they had 9 years in between the '05 and '14 Opens. So the inconvenience is only happening once a decade, not every single summer. To me, putting up with it once every 8-10 years ---- or heck, even just once period considering that there are courses that haven't hosted a major in several decades --- would be worth it if I were a member. (And let's face it, if you are a member at Pine Vallley I'm pretty sure you have the coin to go play some other courses while it's closed).

The reason I'd love to see it happen is because it's the #1 course in America and I will never get to see it unless they host a mjaor. That's the only way a guy like me will ever get any exposure to the course. It's too bad that golf fans like myself who will likely never play there will be kept in the dark about a course that is supposedly our nation's finest.

But it's a good debate