OEM integrity

[pureroll]

[quote name='wrmiller' timestamp='1333322155' post='4626157']
This reasoning is exactly why i won't even touch a TM or Cally club.
[/quote]

So tell us the clubs you play and why?

[hattrick3518]

[quote name='wrmiller' timestamp='1333322155' post='4626157']
This reasoning is exactly why i won't even touch a TM or Cally club.
[/quote]

So, what is your reasoning? Thats a very generalized statement, any particular reasons why? Cites of these companies lack of integrity and unethical behavior would be great for others to see.

[square]

Ely Callaway was not a golfer so his suggestion of "recreational equipment" was understandable.
Palmer was a professional player , and also a USGA spokesperson for decades. For a few bucks Palmer sold out the game. He is no "King".


[quote name='scottvw13' timestamp='1333320189' post='4625959']
[quote name='square' timestamp='1333319927' post='4625929']
I thought it was in very poor taste when Cleveland Golf CEO Greg Hopkins started doing commercials pushing non-conforming groove wedges.

[/quote]

I agree.

However, do you remember when The King was endorsing Callaways line of non conforming drivers?

Thankfully, the public seems to want to play by the rules...
[/quote]

[hef63303]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1333319927' post='4625929']
I thought it was in very poor taste when Cleveland Golf CEO Greg Hopkins started doing commercials pushing non-conforming groove wedges.

[quote name='Twisty82' timestamp='1333274469' post='4623203']
I was just interested if anyone else out there pays much attention to company integrity etc when buying clubs? I know you might play JP wedges cos you have had good dealings with him and he is a good guy, but what about big companies? Do you play certain brands because you like the rep or you like the way they support certain causes etc or run their business with honesty and good values? I am not talking buying Titleiist cos you like Rors or not buying Nike cos you don't like Tiger.

Would love to lnow if anyone thinks about this side of the industry and if so I would love to know which companies people feel fit in to the good and bad categories and why.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Greg Hopkins did not push non-comforming grooves. The grooves were(and still are for most players)conforming. What I don't understand is why people are not buying those same wedges now as they are still conforming for most amateur players. There seems to still be plenty of them available.

[Twisty82]

[quote name='hattrick3518' timestamp='1333312247' post='4625263']


This is an interesting topic. However it's not something I really think about when buying a club. I buy clubs that work for my game, and help me get better. I don't do much research on the integrity of the big box companies, in fact I haven't really noted anything unethical from them (again, haven't done a ton of research). I mean sure, some people are only going to buy clubs from certain manufacturers, and not buy from others; all for different reasons. For me I just buy what works best, I don't do an ethics check on the manufacturer before their club makes it in my bag. As long as they aren't burning down orphanages and shooting children as they run out, I think I'll keep buying their clubs.

Edit: After reading the replies again, it feels like some are stating that good customer service = good ethics and integrity. I don't agree with that, its easy to have good customer service skills. When I saw this thread it got me to thinking about what could be unethical from golf manufacturers...The way they source their materials, is it sustainable? Is it exploiting anyone? How do these companies treat their employees and ambassadors? Customer service may be an indicator of integrity, but its also something necessary for businesses to succeed. Can companies not have good customer service, while at the same time doing some morally questionable things behind closed doors?
[/quote]

I agree with you that good CS is not in and of itself a guarantee that said company is ethical but it is a good indicator I think. You can tell a lot by the emphasis a company puts on CS as to whether they care about the customer primarily or the dollar. I am not for a second suggesting that any company tries to not turn a profit, but how they allocate their resources is enlightening.

I know someone mentioned this always brings out the Ping fanboys but that says a lot. I have worked in the golf industry on and off for 15 years in more than 1 country and Ping is universally it seems held up as a flagship of customer first philosophy. They keep moulds of all their models so regardless of time lapse they can replace a lost iron. Serial numbers make it easier to get said replacement and get the specs right. They have (in my experience) had great quality control and turn around times, they alter your lies for free here in Australia. They seem to really care about the customer. They won't allow companies to advertise their prices or have big sales on their equipment as they don't want to be driven by price. They know they are not cheap but they say this is the product and this is a fair price and they then don't run mass promotions too move units as they say this is what it's worth and that's that. Karsten was also a man with enormous integrity and honour and left a great legacy. I get they are moving with the times but they have not sold out.

The whole gold putter thing is also about the player and the achievement, not marketing or profits. I cannot speak highly enough of them, based on what I know and have read. They also don't pay contracts to players in advance, they pay in accordance to how well you have played after the event. They know this may lose them some players who want guaranteed money but they believe in reward for effort and success, not hand outs based on past success. I love that.

I know Ping are not perfect and other companies are good also but this is my experience and opinion and it seems one shared by many.

I also think Mizuno are pretty good and still family owned. They believe in honesty and morals and work with the same foundry as they did 32 years ago. Your right though, I have no insight to how any of these companies treat their suppliers or staff, although I have spoken to some ping staff who talk about how well they are treated etc but I won't bleat on.

Sorry about the long winded post but thank you for your input, I love hearing what others experience and think.

[avguy]

Why doesn't everyone who has posted here and has access to US based CBS programming watch "Undercover Boss" this upcoming Friday, the one on pre- Easter weekend?

 

Why? This week it is featuring a behind-the-scenes at Taylormade Golf in Carlsbad, CA. If you aren't familiar, this TV show is kinda cool - they take a small camera crew, and in some type or ruise, the CEO of major known US co's. goes into various parts of his/her own headquarters and lower chained end stores. It is very revealing, seems to me, and you see six-figure earnings big wigs looking differently at their own ground floors & workers - who mostly are toiling away like peasants.

 

I know this week, because it is spotlighting one of those brands we all know here, TM, I sure am interested in learning some things. Personally, I believe public-owned co's offer the most transparency to the consumer, but that aspect has No Effect to my club selection, most of it having large manufacturing ties to China and poorly paid workers.

 

I'm typing most of my posts on Apple Products!

[MadGolfer76]

Why doesn't everyone who has posted here and has access to US based CBS programming watch "Undercover Boss" this upcoming Friday, the one on pre- Easter weekend?

 

Why? This week it is featuring a behind-the-scenes at Taylormade Golf in Carlsbad, CA. If you aren't familiar, this TV show is kinda cool - they take a small camera crew, and in some type or ruise, the CEO of major known US co's. goes into various parts of his/her own headquarters and lower chained end stores. It is very revealing, seems to me, and you see six-figure earnings big wigs looking differently at their own ground floors & workers - who mostly are toiling away like peasants.

 

I know this week, because it is spotlighting one of those brands we all know here, TM, I sure am interested in learning some things. Personally, I believe public-owned co's offer the most transparency to the consumer, but that aspect has No Effect to my club selection, most of it having large manufacturing ties to China and poorly paid workers.

I'm typing most of my posts on Apple Products!

 

Hmm. A corporate-sponsored show that just so happens to paint big money CEO's in a positive light during a major economic downturn? Timing seems more than coincidental.

[Twisty82]

Why doesn't everyone who has posted here and has access to US based CBS programming watch "Undercover Boss" this upcoming Friday, the one on pre- Easter weekend?

 

Why? This week it is featuring a behind-the-scenes at Taylormade Golf in Carlsbad, CA. If you aren't familiar, this TV show is kinda cool - they take a small camera crew, and in some type or ruise, the CEO of major known US co's. goes into various parts of his/her own headquarters and lower chained end stores. It is very revealing, seems to me, and you see six-figure earnings big wigs looking differently at their own ground floors & workers - who mostly are toiling away like peasants.

 

I know this week, because it is spotlighting one of those brands we all know here, TM, I sure am interested in learning some things. Personally, I believe public-owned co's offer the most transparency to the consumer, but that aspect has No Effect to my club selection, most of it having large manufacturing ties to China and poorly paid workers.

I'm typing most of my posts on Apple Products!

 

Hmm. A corporate-sponsored show that just so happens to paint big money CEO's in a positive light during a major economic downturn? Timing seems more than coincidental.

 

 

I hate being cynical but I agree entirely. Although I do enjoy the show at times there is no way I believe it gives a completely genuine and unbiased view of what transpires. Reality TV is as unreal as you can possibly get, scarily so.

[MGPT]

Ping have amazing c.service. Machine (chris and dave), Geek (steve almo) and Bobby Grace have all spoken to me personally which I respect a lot.


Taylormade can suck my Ballz

[mozgolf]

I don't have any loyalty to an OEM at all. If it works, suits my eye and the price is right (ie. heavily discounted) I will buy it. Probably why I have never had Pings. I have always admired them, but they very rarely get discounted!!

[pingman1]

[quote name='mozgolf' timestamp='1333367691' post='4629009']
I don't have any loyalty to an OEM at all. If it works, suits my eye and the price is right (ie. heavily discounted) I will buy it. Probably why I have never had Pings. I have always admired them, but they very rarely get discounted!!
[/quote]

PING does discount, every two years when a new model is introduced. The G15 series have been heavily discounted as well as G10.

[pingman1]

[quote name='mozgolf' timestamp='1333367691' post='4629009']
I don't have any loyalty to an OEM at all. If it works, suits my eye and the price is right (ie. heavily discounted) I will buy it. Probably why I have never had Pings. I have always admired them, but they very rarely get discounted!!
[/quote]

PING does discount, every two years when a new model is introduced. The G15 series have been heavily discounted as well as G10.

[wrmiller]

[quote name='hattrick3518' timestamp='1333328117' post='4626797']

So, what is your reasoning? Thats a very generalized statement, any particular reasons why? Cites of these companies lack of integrity and unethical behavior would be great for others to see.
[/quote]

The OPs post was regarding integrity and/or business practices. I just happen to disagree with one or both of these behaviors exhibited by the companies I mentioned. I choose not to elaborate, being only an opinion, and anyone is free to run their business as they see fit. Having said that, if I don't agree with a company's practices, I do not shop there. Not a big deal really.

[hattrick3518]

[quote name='wrmiller' timestamp='1333377168' post='4629885']
[quote name='hattrick3518' timestamp='1333328117' post='4626797']

So, what is your reasoning? Thats a very generalized statement, any particular reasons why? Cites of these companies lack of integrity and unethical behavior would be great for others to see.
[/quote]

The OPs post was regarding integrity and/or business practices. I just happen to disagree with one or both of these behaviors exhibited by the companies I mentioned. I choose not to elaborate, being only an opinion, and anyone is free to run their business as they see fit. Having said that, if I don't agree with a company's practices, I do not shop there. Not a big deal really.
[/quote]

Fair enough, I was just wondering if there were any examples you had seen or known of. I tend to see the golf industry as a pretty wholesome and healthy one. Customer service is king now, especially with the push towards custom fitting, no two customers are the same any more. Its not acceptable to sell mass produced identical OTR products; lots of consumers are moving along with the custom fit craze, and manufacturers have to keep up or get left behind.

I would still like to know how some of these clubs are produced, what materials they use, how their manufacturing conditions are, are the companies employees happy, what benefits do the companies offer. you can tell a little about a company based on their product offerings, but you can certainly learn more about their integrity behind doors and in how they run their operations. Sorry this just makes me think.

[GooseHook]

[quote name='dplevin' timestamp='1333310079' post='4625129']
The integrity of an OEM does affect me, that's why I don't play Scotty Cameron.
[/quote]

On a side note, the Kool-Aid man ball marker is sick.

My biases are with companies that are somewhat understated but their stuff gets the job done. It's not like I seek them out, it just kinda happens that way.

As a result, my bag has PING woods, Mizuno irons and wedges, and a Piretti putter.

[CosmosMpower]

Not really, that's why I play Ping but I also play clubs from the dark side (Taylormade)

[super20dan]

i wont buy nike -they blatantly bought their way into golf. i also wont buy taylor made till they give up the ghost -white putters. every time i see a pga pro stupid enough to putt with one -i give them the ole caddyshak missit hiss

[HighTopFade]

I'd prefer to buy components made in USA or Japan. Unfortunately, it gets expensive and may not work well for me.

[golfnuthb]

Ping and Mizuno fill the top 2 spots as far as I'm concerned. Also think Cleveland is still number 1 for wedges and underrated as a company in general.

[square]

Greg Hopkins, who fancies himelf as a player, decided to buy air time trying to convince golfers to buy non-conforming groove wedges while they still had the chance.
Disgraceful.
As for the "legality" of non-conforrming grooves, there is no room for two sets of equipment Rules. The game has always had one set of equipment Rules for all levels of player, and that should remain true, as it is an integral part of the game.


[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1333335627' post='4627713']
Greg Hopkins did not push non-comforming grooves. The grooves were(and still are for most players)conforming. What I don't understand is why people are not buying those same wedges now as they are still conforming for most amateur players. There seems to still be plenty of them available.
[/quote]

[play18now]

Gotten to know the local Titleist rep a bit and hes a great guy. I've had lots of good experiences with both off the rack and custom orders. Can't beat that and it's reflected in my bag.

[mozgolf]

[quote name='pingman1' timestamp='1333369180' post='4629103']
[quote name='mozgolf' timestamp='1333367691' post='4629009']
I don't have any loyalty to an OEM at all. If it works, suits my eye and the price is right (ie. heavily discounted) I will buy it. Probably why I have never had Pings. I have always admired them, but they very rarely get discounted!!
[/quote]

PING does discount, every two years when a new model is introduced. The G15 series have been heavily discounted as well as G10.
[/quote]

Cheers thanks, but who wants the old model (tongue in cheek!!)

[Titleist_242]

Are we talking about manufacturers that release a new model every 2.5 days and advertise the crap out of it,

add an inch to the shaft, de-loft it and advertise that it will add 17 yards,

only to see our forum flooded within a week with these false advertisements?

[spring70]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1333425353' post='4635733']
Greg Hopkins, who fancies himelf as a player, decided to buy air time trying to convince golfers to buy non-conforming groove wedges while they still had the chance.
Disgraceful.
As for the "legality" of non-conforrming grooves, there is no room for two sets of equipment Rules. The game has always had one set of equipment Rules for all levels of player, and that should remain true, as it is an integral part of the game.


[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1333335627' post='4627713']
Greg Hopkins did not push non-comforming grooves. The grooves were(and still are for most players)conforming. What I don't understand is why people are not buying those same wedges now as they are still conforming for most amateur players. There seems to still be plenty of them available.
[/quote]
[/quote]

So Cleveland is telling people to buy wedges that are legal for 99% of the golfing population. and?

[swingdoc80]

It probably shoudnt play a role in the equipment you play but i am probably guilty as well. This is why you will never see anything from Ping in my bag.

[Twisty82]

[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1333488438' post='4642217']
It probably shoudnt play a role in the equipment you play but i am probably guilty as well. This is why you will never see anything from Ping in my bag.
[/quote]

I would love it if you would explain that. Why would you never play anything made by Ping? Everyone is entitled to their opinion so I am not going to disagree or argue, just interested in your experiences.

Thanks

[Splitter]

I think *everyone* shops with a bias. It's just a matter of how strong the bias is and what the real or perceived cause is.

I started out liking Scottys, but between his behavior and his fanboys I haven't picked one up in a while. I could probably handle his nonsense, but his fanboys push me over the edge. Probably wouldn't stop me from buying a TEI if I found one at a good price, but I don't go out of my way to look for them anymore.

My last set of Pings came in with paint and epoxy all over them and the SW jacked from c9-d6 through the set. I don't look at Ping first anymore. It's a QC issue for me but may be an integrity issue for someone else. And if that someone else were mad enough about it, I'm sure they could find an integrity issue with *something* Ping does as well.

On the other hand, my AP1s came in perfect with precise SWs and now their gear is usually the first I look at. And because of that, I don't look for reasons to stay away although someone probably hates Titleist for selling $50 balls..

We're all pretty lucky there are so many club companies left producing good gear. We can let our own opinions and idiosyncrasies guide us and still end up with a pretty good set of clubs.

[bobfoster]

Don't think about that at all. Only what clubs let me play the best game.

Then again, I own a medium sized private corporation, and I'm completely corrupt and morally bankrupt. (heehee).

[swingdoc80]

[quote name='Twisty82' timestamp='1333491268' post='4642579']
[quote name='swingdoc80' timestamp='1333488438' post='4642217']
It probably shoudnt play a role in the equipment you play but i am probably guilty as well. This is why you will never see anything from Ping in my bag.
[/quote]

I would love it if you would explain that. Why would you never play anything made by Ping? Everyone is entitled to their opinion so I am not going to disagree or argue, just interested in your experiences.

Thanks
[/quote]


I have worked in golf for a long time, i deal with all the major companies most days. Suffice it to say that Ping are by the far the worst to deal with from a retail basis. Very cynical practises, but sounds like its a different story for the US which is good to know

[stage1350]

There are certain companies that have been in my bag that will never return. But that's mostly because they are out of business...

As for brands that I refuse to buy, I can think of one or two that will not be sending me Christmas cards anytime soon.