Refusing to sign card

[Vindog]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388505915' post='8373859']what if your FC doesn't agree that its a pitch mark?
[/quote]

My initial reaction would be that if it's not obvious enough of a pitch mark so that another human can readily identify it, then it may not be one after all. Just food for thought.
Or, maybe ask someone else. Decisions say that it must be "clearly identifiable."

I have never seen that happen, but that's not to say it hasn't.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388505915' post='8373859']
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388505763' post='8373835']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388504877' post='8373757']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

This question stemmed from a discussion about whether you should point out to your FCs that you are going to repair a pitch mark that is on your line.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that you [i]have to[/i], but I always try to, and I always thought it was customary. I see pros do it all the time.

So hypothetically, I feel as it is best to do it, and I guess you could say that one [i]should[/i] do it to avoid such hypothetical controversy.
[/quote]

what if your FC doesn't agree that its a pitch mark?
[/quote]

The simple answer is to call an official for a determination, but since that's frequently not practical, an interesting aspect of your question is whether or not, in stroke play, playing a second ball via 3-3 is an option until an official can be contacted later. I suppose so, though it creates an interesting dynamic in which you'd have to first putt over the mark without it being fixed to establish one outcome, then fix it and putt over the repaired surface to determine the second outcome -- though you'd already have the break defined by the first putt. (I suppose in every case you learn something from your first stroke in executing 3-3, but I had not contemplated it on a green and how much you could learn prior to your asking this question.)

[Colin L]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388494050' post='8372999']
I got some strange looks from a two some we got paired up with one day last week in a similar situation as the hypothetical. I had already lined up my putt, etc., when I walked about halfway up the incline to double check my intended line. When I went to mimic a putt from there the putter slipped through my fingers and hit the green. I completed my putt and said out loud "That's a five" (It was a par three and I two putted). I told them that I had touched my line of putt when the putter slipped
[/quote]

I think you would have got a strange look from me as well. Why do you feel that accidentally dropping your putter and picking it up was "touching the line of your putt" in terms of 16-1a? Walking on the line of your putt is not a breach if accidental and does not improve your line of putt (Decision 16-1a/12). Would you not consider that accidentally dropping a club is the same sort of thing and that it did not merit a penalty?

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388494786' post='8373041']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388494391' post='8373023']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1388462975' post='8371995']
Back in the day, I played the real TopFlites. They would break from time to time, and my FC's said I had to play out both parts and then use the total for my score on the hole. I called them lying, cheating SOB's (they were), they said I was a smartass, longhaired punk (I was). Who was right?
[/quote]

It seems that they were, because they could not have been cheating SOB's [b]as you did not know the Rule in question (R5-3)[/b] and thus you could not be sure they were cheating.

Did I win this New Year contest?
[/quote]

How do you know that he didn't know the rule. from the post, it seems he did.

Seems both were right, penalties offset. Replay 3rd down.
[/quote]

Had he known the Rule he would not have posted his question, right..?

Furthermore, from the choice of words as well as the general nature of the question I am convinced this was a rapid and humorous New Year's Eve quiz...

[farmer]

My post was tongue-in-cheek, although not hypothetical. Everyone knew the rule, it was harmless bs. I miss those guys.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1388520449' post='8375101']
My post was tongue-in-cheek, although not hypothetical. Everyone knew the rule, it was harmless bs. I miss those guys.
[/quote]

Yes, well, the bullies like to gang up around here and are void of humor.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that they're due new corn cobs tomorrow, so it'll be a rough few weeks until they become accustomed to them.

[Vindog]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388512424' post='8374391']Had he known the Rule he would not have posted his question, right..?

Furthermore, from the choice of words as well as the general nature of the question I am convinced this was a rapid and humorous New Year's Eve quiz...
[/quote]

After review, the ruling on the field is confirnmed. Replay 3rd down

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388494050' post='8372999']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

I agree, it would be a jerk move to call it so late. Always say something at the time.


I got some strange looks from a two some we got paired up with one day last week in a similar situation as the hypothetical. I had already lined up my putt, etc., when I walked about halfway up the incline to double check my intended line. When I went to mimic a putt from there the putter slipped through my fingers and hit the green. I completed my putt and said out loud "That's a five" (It was a par three and I two putted). I told them that I had touched my line of putt when the putter slipped and that we play for a bit of money so we play by all the rules we can remember. But I made my intentions known to everyone at the time of the infraction. The next day my buddy chipped onto a par 3 green, walked across to putt and said that it wasn't his ball. As he walked back across the green I said I'd have to get the rule book out to see if that was a 1 or a 2 stroke penalty (it's 2). He looked at me really funny and I simply said that I hoped it was 2 to bring us even for me touching my putting line the day before. He laughed, found his ball, and took his six. He putts worse than me.
[/quote]

Thought this would have been responded to by now, but I don't see it. Putter falling from your hands - not improving your line. Walking on the green - no penalty. Please explain.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1388536302' post='8376563']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388494050' post='8372999']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

I agree, it would be a jerk move to call it so late. Always say something at the time.


I got some strange looks from a two some we got paired up with one day last week in a similar situation as the hypothetical. I had already lined up my putt, etc., when I walked about halfway up the incline to double check my intended line. When I went to mimic a putt from there the putter slipped through my fingers and hit the green. I completed my putt and said out loud "That's a five" (It was a par three and I two putted). I told them that I had touched my line of putt when the putter slipped and that we play for a bit of money so we play by all the rules we can remember. But I made my intentions known to everyone at the time of the infraction. The next day my buddy chipped onto a par 3 green, walked across to putt and said that it wasn't his ball. As he walked back across the green I said I'd have to get the rule book out to see if that was a 1 or a 2 stroke penalty (it's 2). He looked at me really funny and I simply said that I hoped it was 2 to bring us even for me touching my putting line the day before. He laughed, found his ball, and took his six. He putts worse than me.
[/quote]

Thought this would have been responded to by now, but I don't see it. Putter falling from your hands - not improving your line. Walking on the green - no penalty. Please explain.
[/quote]

In post #33, Colin makes the point that accidentally walking on your line is not a penalty, therefore, in equity (Rule 1-4), accidentally dropping your putter on your line is not/should not be a penalty either. Therefore Wedges acceptance of a self-imposed penalty stroke was most likely incorrect, yielding odd looks from his companions.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1388536613' post='8376597']
In post #33, Colin makes the point that accidentally walking on your line is not a penalty, therefore, in equity (Rule 1-4), accidentally dropping your putter on your line is not/should not be a penalty either. Therefore Wedges acceptance of a self-imposed penalty stroke was most likely incorrect, yielding odd looks from his companions.
[/quote]

Thanks, Sawgrass.

I look forward to hearing what you think, 4wedges, as I believe you have penalised yourself unnecessarily.

It is now 2014 here but perhaps it hasn't quite arrived in the USA. No matter - all the best to everyone for the New Year.

[Vindog]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1388541656' post='8377021']It is now 2014 here but perhaps it hasn't quite arrived in the USA. No matter - all the best to everyone for the New Year.
[/quote]

Hey!!! How about a spoiler alert?!!?












(j/k )

[Sawgrass]

I can't "like you" via my phone Vindog, but nevertheless I like you.

And happy new year to you, Collin, despite your having spoiled the surprise!

[Vindog]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1388549457' post='8377503']
I can't "like you" via my phone Vindog, but nevertheless I like you.

And happy new year to you, Collin, despite your having spoiled the surprise!
[/quote]

Happy New year Saw (and everybody else!) Here's to hoping that we never have to invoke the red parts of the rule book in 2014.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388542748' post='8377121']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1388541656' post='8377021']It is now 2014 here but perhaps it hasn't quite arrived in the USA. No matter - all the best to everyone for the New Year.
[/quote]

Hey!!! How about a spoiler alert?!!?

(j/k )
[/quote]

I guess you didn't know what number the year was going to be?

[Noles]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388505915' post='8373859']
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388505763' post='8373835']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388504877' post='8373757']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

This question stemmed from a discussion about whether you should point out to your FCs that you are going to repair a pitch mark that is on your line.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that you [i]have to[/i], but I always try to, and I always thought it was customary. I see pros do it all the time.

So hypothetically, I feel as it is best to do it, and I guess you could say that one [i]should[/i] do it to avoid such hypothetical controversy.
[/quote]

what if your FC doesn't agree that its a pitch mark?
[/quote] I never found myself in this situation but have always wondered how someone who did not see the mark being made , could try to tell someone that it is not a ball mark.

[mark m]

I have had FC's say the imperfection is not a ball mark. I have also done the same a couple of times when asked. In these instances, what typically happens is the player quailfies his request - and it usually goes something like this. "John, please take a look at this for me, do you think this is an old ball mark, or not? I'm not sure."

Sometimes it can be difficult to determine whether or not the mark in question is an older previously (but perhaps poorly) repaired ball mark, an old hole that didn't fully heal from aerification, or a hole/depression caused by some other means (flagstick, squirrel, or whatever). I agree that the vast majority of the time the request to repair is granted. But not always in my experience. And the best practice is too ask.

As for being on the receiving end of a request not granted - it wouldn't tend to bother me. Having grown up playing on public courses, I don't expect perfection and have had to deal with poor course conditions many times. I have also played many competitive/gambling rounds with the overly competitive gamesmenship type players; so, frankly, I hope for the best, but expect the worse, depending on the circumstances. (Don't let them rattle you.)

[rogolf]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1388942528' post='8402567']
I have had FC's say the imperfection is not a ball mark. I have also done the same a couple of times when asked. In these instances, what typically happens is the player quailfies his request - and it usually goes something like this. "John, please take a look at this for me, do you think this is an old ball mark, or not? I'm not sure."

Sometimes it can be difficult to determine whether or not the mark in question is an older previously (but perhaps poorly) repaired ball mark, an old hole that didn't fully heal from aerification, or a hole/depression caused by some other means (flagstick, squirrel, or whatever). I agree that the vast majority of the time the request to repair is granted. But not always in my experience. And the best practice is too ask.

As for being on the receiving end of a request not granted - it wouldn't tend to bother me. Having grown up playing on public courses, I don't expect perfection and have had to deal with poor course conditions many times. I have also played many competitive/gambling rounds with the overly competitive gamesmenship type players; so, frankly, I hope for the best, but expect the worse, depending on the circumstances. (Don't let them rattle you.)
[/quote]

But, of course, the marker's or FC's opinion is just that, an opinion. Neither is a referee, and they don't have a veto. The end result is that you can take your chances and go ahead and repair it. If they want to object further, they will need to bring it up to the Committee as/before the cards are being returned.
As it says in Decision 34-3/4, "In this case it was B's word against A's and the weight of evidence did not favor either competitor. In such a case, the benefit of the doubt should be given to A, the player of the stroke."

[mark m]

Rogolf: I agree. The situations I am speaking of tend to be in rounds where there is no committee in charge of the competition. So we are basically policing ourselves - and we defer to our FC's. Depending on the circumstances, if I thought strongly about it - I may go head and repair the mark. I haven't come across that situation in 30 years of playing in various groups - but I do admit it could happen.
I also think many golfers are increasingly expecting [u]perfect,[/u] or near perfect, conditions - and this is unrealistic at many courses. It is much much easier to play by the rules when the course is in great shape and properly marked. Problem areas on greens tend to be the front areas where numerous ball marks go unrepaired for awhile. Often made by players that don't know they even made a mark or care that they did as the ball tends to end up rather far from the ballmark. When repaired too late, they often don't heal as well and then you have the problem.

[GayGlaze]

Our last two ball tourney, competitor threatened to not sign card.  We were tallying scores at the end of the first 9 and she said I had 5 on a par 3 (I got a stroke and partner did not) on which I had a 4.  My partner and I went stroke by stroke over hole but she refused to listen. At next hole she continued to grumble and I said, “We can allow committee to resolve.”  She tried to disrupt further by saying I had a 5 on a par 4, but after going over it with her, she apologized.  At end of round, we were ready to bring discrepancy to committee but she decided to sign the card because she “did not want to bring any chaos to the tournament.”  She proceeded to tell everyone at her lunch table that we cheated.  My partner and I don’t cheat and everyone we play with in our local golf community knows this. Lesson to be learned is to stand your ground with bullies and verify scores at the end of every hole!

[Imp]

18 hours ago, GayGlaze said:

 and she said I had 5 on a par 3 (I got a stroke and partner did not) on which I had a 4.  

Little confused in the way this was written... Were you supposed to write gross or net strokes on the card? Did you shoot 5 net 4 and record 4 on the card or 4 net 3 and record 4 on the card? 

[GayGlaze]

Gross scores.  Partner got the 5 with no stroke.  I got the 4 with a stroke which would be a net 3.

[Mr. Bean]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:00 PM, GayGlaze said:

Our last two ball tourney, competitor threatened to not sign card.  We were tallying scores at the end of the first 9 and she said I had 5 on a par 3 (I got a stroke and partner did not) on which I had a 4.  My partner and I went stroke by stroke over hole but she refused to listen. At next hole she continued to grumble and I said, “We can allow committee to resolve.”  She tried to disrupt further by saying I had a 5 on a par 4, but after going over it with her, she apologized.  At end of round, we were ready to bring discrepancy to committee but she decided to sign the card because she “did not want to bring any chaos to the tournament.”  She proceeded to tell everyone at her lunch table that we cheated.  My partner and I don’t cheat and everyone we play with in our local golf community knows this. Lesson to be learned is to stand your ground with bullies and verify scores at the end of every hole!

 

You had a partner, so it was a 4-ball, right? What did the competitor's partner say about the scores?

[rogolf]

On 4/12/2024 at 11:00 AM, GayGlaze said:

Our last two ball tourney, competitor threatened to not sign card.  We were tallying scores at the end of the first 9 and she said I had 5 on a par 3 (I got a stroke and partner did not) on which I had a 4.  My partner and I went stroke by stroke over hole but she refused to listen. At next hole she continued to grumble and I said, “We can allow committee to resolve.”  She tried to disrupt further by saying I had a 5 on a par 4, but after going over it with her, she apologized.  At end of round, we were ready to bring discrepancy to committee but she decided to sign the card because she “did not want to bring any chaos to the tournament.”  She proceeded to tell everyone at her lunch table that we cheated.  My partner and I don’t cheat and everyone we play with in our local golf community knows this. Lesson to be learned is to stand your ground with bullies and verify scores at the end of every hole!

A marker is a recorder (records the scores) not a referee.