Refusing to sign card

[PaddyK]

At the end of a round my marker refuses to sign card saying on the 7th hole I touched the line of my putt and should have called a 6 instead of 4. What actually happened was I repaired a pitchmark on my line.

 

What happens here? Should he have tried to call a pen at the time? Can I get the commitee to sign my card?

[tembolo1284]

Wow I'd take it to the officials and explain. Are the playing partners or your caddy around to back you up?

[bmahony]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388420335' post='8367571']
At the end of a round my marker refuses to sign card saying on the 7th hole I touched the line of my putt and should have called a 6 instead of 4. What actually happened was I repaired a pitchmark on my line.

What happens here? Should he have tried to call a pen at the time? Can I get the commitee to sign my card?
[/quote]he should have said it then..he is the only 1 who can sign your card

[pingeye]

He should have said it then so that if others were there they could provide their opinions. If disagree, then both scores should have been recorded and taken to the officials to determine which score to sign for.

Sucks that he waited. I'm sure you'll remember him if you're paired up again.

[4Wedges]

Only thing I could find similar to your issue:



[quote]
[b] 6-6a/4[/b]

[b] Marker Refuses to Sign Competitor's Card After Dispute Resolved in Favor of Competitor[/b]

Q.In stroke play, B, who was A's fellow-competitor and marker, refused to sign A's score card on the grounds that A had played outside the teeing ground at the 15th hole. A claimed that he played from within the teeing ground.
The Committee decided in favor of A. Despite the Committee's decision, B continued to refuse to sign A's card. Should B be penalized?
A.No. A marker is not obliged to sign a card he believes to be incorrect, notwithstanding the determination of the Committee. However, the marker must report the facts and authenticate those scores which he considers correct.
The Committee should accept certification of A's score at the 15th hole by anyone else who witnessed the play of the hole. If no witness is available, the Committee should accept A's score without certification.
[/quote]

[PaddyK]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388420928' post='8367659']
Only thing I could find similar to your issue:



[quote]
[b] 6-6a/4[/b]

[b] Marker Refuses to Sign Competitor's Card After Dispute Resolved in Favor of Competitor[/b]

Q.In stroke play, B, who was A's fellow-competitor and marker, refused to sign A's score card on the grounds that A had played outside the teeing ground at the 15th hole. A claimed that he played from within the teeing ground.
The Committee decided in favor of A. Despite the Committee's decision, B continued to refuse to sign A's card. Should B be penalized?
A.No. A marker is not obliged to sign a card he believes to be incorrect, notwithstanding the determination of the Committee. However, the marker must report the facts and authenticate those scores which he considers correct.
The Committee should accept certification of A's score at the 15th hole by anyone else who witnessed the play of the hole. If no witness is available, the Committee should accept A's score without certification.
[/quote]
[/quote]

interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='pingeye' timestamp='1388420764' post='8367637']
He should have said it then so that if others were there they could provide their opinions. If disagree, then both scores should have been recorded and taken to the officials to determine which score to sign for.

Sucks that he waited. I'm sure you'll remember him if you're paired up again.
[/quote]

On the other hand by waiting until end of the round you do not run the risk of ruining the rest of the round in case of a serious disagreement. What he propably should have done is to ask why the player tapped the line of putt and get a close look at the very spot (and invite others in the group, too). Should he still disagree it might have been best to leave it there and discuss it after the round with the officials.

But the procedure is exacty how you described it, up to the Committeé to decide. Interviewing all players in the group is a key factor here, and if there is no evidence of a breach the player should be given benefit of the doubt.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388420928' post='8367659']
Only thing I could find similar to your issue:



[quote]
[b] 6-6a/4[/b]

[b] Marker Refuses to Sign Competitor's Card After Dispute Resolved in Favor of Competitor[/b]

Q.In stroke play, B, who was A's fellow-competitor and marker, refused to sign A's score card on the grounds that A had played outside the teeing ground at the 15th hole. A claimed that he played from within the teeing ground.
The Committee decided in favor of A. Despite the Committee's decision, B continued to refuse to sign A's card. Should B be penalized?
A.No. A marker is not obliged to sign a card he believes to be incorrect, notwithstanding the determination of the Committee. However, the marker must report the facts and authenticate those scores which he considers correct.
The Committee should accept certification of A's score at the 15th hole by anyone else who witnessed the play of the hole. If no witness is available, the Committee should accept A's score without certification.
[/quote]
[/quote]

interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Seems the correct solution would be to take it to the committee and allow them to decide, as the decision implies. The marker is obligated to report to them the facts as he knows them, along with any other competitors, etc. present.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388426593' post='8368219']

Seems the correct solution would be to take it to the committee and allow them to decide, as the decision implies. The marker is obligated to report to them the facts as he knows them, along with any other competitors, etc. present.
[/quote]

I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...

[Vindog]

This is why it's best to clear such repairs with your FCs, hypothetically

[Newby]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388427845' post='8368313']
I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...
[/quote]

He probably didn't see it if you are on ignore.

[Imp]

[QUOTE]6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play

a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it.[/QUOTE]

Did the marker check the score with the competitor after that hole? (Note: I realize it says "should" and not "will". However this is one of those times that "should" be invoked to verify and settle any future dispute).

--kC

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1388428164' post='8368341']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388427845' post='8368313']
I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...
[/quote]

He probably didn't see it if you are on ignore.
[/quote]

I don't doubt that possibility, and frequently contemplate how ironic that in itself is.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388427935' post='8368321']
This is why it's best to clear such repairs with your FCs, hypothetically
[/quote]

That actually came up when I was playing Saturday. I had addressed my putt, was setting up to "see" the line and noticed a ball mark about 3/4 of the way on my intended line that I had missed. I stepped away, walked up and leaned over with my repair tool and stopped, looked at the other player and commented that I hadn't seen this ball mark. That gave him a moment to see the mark before I repaired it.

We only play for a pittance per side, but it forces us to communicate better as well.

[jewofgolf]

Personally I don't check people on fixing ball marks. I'm too busy fixing the ones in my line and reading my putt. I trust my fellow competitors to not tap down spike marks or touch their line of putt.

If I'm done putting then I do pay attention, but by then all of that stuff is normally done anyway (putt reading, repairing, etc...)

[Augster]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']

interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)

[farmer]

Back in the day, I played the real TopFlites. They would break from time to time, and my FC's said I had to play out both parts and then use the total for my score on the hole. I called them lying, cheating SOB's (they were), they said I was a smartass, longhaired punk (I was). Who was right?

[tembolo1284]

This scares me.

[sui generis]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1388462975' post='8371995']
Back in the day, I played the real TopFlites. They would break from time to time, and my FC's said I had to play out both parts and then use the total for my score on the hole. I called them lying, cheating SOB's (they were), they said I was a smartass, longhaired punk (I was). Who was right?
[/quote]

I cannot say what the Rule was "back in the day." However, if it were to happen on New Years Eve 2013, the Rule is:

[b] 5-3. Ball Unfit For Play[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]<snip>[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]If a ball breaks into pieces as a result of a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i], the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] is canceled and the player must play a ball, without penalty, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was played [/size][/color]

[4Wedges]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1388444990' post='8369995']
Personally I don't check people on fixing ball marks. I'm too busy fixing the ones in my line and reading my putt. I trust my fellow competitors to not tap down spike marks or touch their line of putt.

If I'm done putting then I do pay attention, but by then all of that stuff is normally done anyway (putt reading, repairing, etc...)
[/quote]

We normally do exactly as you describe as well. It just was such a situation that I was away and we had already done our "grooming" and I was setting up for the putt when I saw the "new" mark. As I leaned over to fix it it struck me as unusual that I was doing it so "late" so I said something.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

I agree, it would be a jerk move to call it so late. Always say something at the time.


I got some strange looks from a two some we got paired up with one day last week in a similar situation as the hypothetical. I had already lined up my putt, etc., when I walked about halfway up the incline to double check my intended line. When I went to mimic a putt from there the putter slipped through my fingers and hit the green. I completed my putt and said out loud "That's a five" (It was a par three and I two putted). I told them that I had touched my line of putt when the putter slipped and that we play for a bit of money so we play by all the rules we can remember. But I made my intentions known to everyone at the time of the infraction. The next day my buddy chipped onto a par 3 green, walked across to putt and said that it wasn't his ball. As he walked back across the green I said I'd have to get the rule book out to see if that was a 1 or a 2 stroke penalty (it's 2). He looked at me really funny and I simply said that I hoped it was 2 to bring us even for me touching my putting line the day before. He laughed, found his ball, and took his six. He putts worse than me.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1388428164' post='8368341']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388427845' post='8368313']
I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...
[/quote]

He probably didn't see it if you are on ignore.
[/quote]

I think from the silence, you must be too.

I wonder if I am?

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1388462975' post='8371995']
Back in the day, I played the real TopFlites. They would break from time to time, and my FC's said I had to play out both parts and then use the total for my score on the hole. I called them lying, cheating SOB's (they were), they said I was a smartass, longhaired punk (I was). Who was right?
[/quote]

It seems that they were, because they could not have been cheating SOB's as you did not know the Rule in question (R5-3) and thus you could not be sure they were cheating.

Did I win this New Year contest?

[sui generis]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1388494219' post='8373011']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1388428164' post='8368341']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388427845' post='8368313']
I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...
[/quote]

He probably didn't see it if you are on ignore.
[/quote]

I think from the silence, you must be too.

I wonder if I am?
[/quote]

Consider it a modest tribute ....

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1388494219' post='8373011']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1388428164' post='8368341']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388427845' post='8368313']
I wonder if you are the same person who raises hell when someone gives the same answer as you but later than you..? Just referring to my post right before yours...
[/quote]

He probably didn't see it if you are on ignore.
[/quote]

I think from the silence, you must be too.

I wonder if I am?
[/quote]

To be or not to be, there's the question!

[Vindog]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1388494391' post='8373023']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1388462975' post='8371995']
Back in the day, I played the real TopFlites. They would break from time to time, and my FC's said I had to play out both parts and then use the total for my score on the hole. I called them lying, cheating SOB's (they were), they said I was a smartass, longhaired punk (I was). Who was right?
[/quote]

It seems that they were, because they could not have been cheating SOB's [b]as you did not know the Rule in question (R5-3)[/b] and thus you could not be sure they were cheating.

Did I win this New Year contest?
[/quote]

How do you know that he didn't know the rule. from the post, it seems he did.

Seems both were right, penalties offset. Replay 3rd down.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388494786' post='8373041']


How do you know that he didn't know the rule. from the post, it seems he did.

Seems both were right, penalties offset. Replay 3rd down.
[/quote]

Winner Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Clearly he knew that they were wrong and his query was purely rhetorical in nature.

[PaddyK]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

This question stemmed from a discussion about whether you should point out to your FCs that you are going to repair a pitch mark that is on your line.

[Vindog]

[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388504877' post='8373757']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

This question stemmed from a discussion about whether you should point out to your FCs that you are going to repair a pitch mark that is on your line.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that you [i]have to[/i], but I always try to, and I always thought it was customary. I see pros do it all the time.

So hypothetically, I feel as it is best to do it, and I guess you could say that one [i]should[/i] do it to avoid such hypothetical controversy.

[PaddyK]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1388505763' post='8373835']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388504877' post='8373757']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1388450942' post='8370565']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1388421881' post='8367771']
interesting, cheers

It was acutally hypothetical anyway.
[/quote]

Christ I hate hypotheticals. They tend to show the non-existent FC in a bad light. As if there was actually a D-Bag FC out there that would pull that. And happen to do that to someone who posts on an internet rules forum.

In my experience on tournament play, over 99% of FC's are stand-up nice guys. Hypotheticals rely on, "Yeah, but what if one of these guys was a jerk?" I'm not going to worry about something that might happen once in 100 meetings. (and that is generous for odds. I've played and watched, live, thousands of FC's and haven't run across any D-bag shenanigans like this hypothetical. So the odds would be more close to 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 by my experience)
[/quote]

This question stemmed from a discussion about whether you should point out to your FCs that you are going to repair a pitch mark that is on your line.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that you [i]have to[/i], but I always try to, and I always thought it was customary. I see pros do it all the time.

So hypothetically, I feel as it is best to do it, and I guess you could say that one [i]should[/i] do it to avoid such hypothetical controversy.
[/quote]

what if your FC doesn't agree that its a pitch mark?