Open source Face Labels for Lie angle - DIY lie angle testing

Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
edited May 6, 2017 in WRX Club Techs #1
Fellow club makers and hobbyists, i hereby invite you to take part in a open source project to develop a DIY Face Label for Lie Angle testing of Irons and Wedges.



Lie angles is extremely important for accuracy and direction, but also for a pure impact since lie angle influence on where impact ends on the heel to toe axis. Lie boards has done enough damage here, and this both can and should be available for DIY, and thats why i want you all to help out to make this as good as it can be.



Make a strait LINE in the ball using a whiteboard pen (dry erase marker), and allign it vertical as best as you can

Hit a few balls and compare the ANGLE of that line to the lines on the label





Jump to this post for links to download a label sheet as PDF



http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/page__st__30#entry13852174



The label with the LONGEST lines is the best.



PS! You DONT need to print it on a Avery sheet, just use plain paper and use a "thin" painters tape on top to fix the label to the club face. Align the label to the center (heel to toe), and from the lowest groove and up.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • HISPLHISPL Members Posts: 3,068
    Looks great Howard!



    I would be a customer for sure 😀
  • brooky333brooky333 Members Posts: 732 ✭✭
    edited Jun 29, 2016 #3
    Thanks Howard



    got the PDF



    Now a little bit of info as to how to stick it on the clubs



    do I just line up the line along the botton of the club in the middle?



    a photo of an iron with one on would be great



    brooky333
  • kidrobotkidrobot Hackerman Members Posts: 212 ✭✭
    Looks like you stick it on the face and you hit a ball with a vertical line drawn on it with a marker.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 29, 2016 #5
    kidrobot wrote:


    Looks like you stick it on the face and you hit a ball with a vertical line drawn on it with a marker.




    Find the center of the face, Heel to Toe and make sure 0* is at center. (use the grooves)

    Use the lowest grooves on the face and allign it with the top and bottom line of the outer black frame



    It will look something like this on the club.

    On most club heads the label as it is will be wider than the grooves area



  • creasy54creasy54 Members Posts: 173
    Have you used these on grass Howard, or mats only?
    "It's the last ball you've got in the bag Roy, you get this one wet and we're disqualified"
    "I can make it across"
    "Well then do it and quit f*$king around"
  • TexasInAlaskaGolfTexasInAlaskaGolf Members Posts: 916 ✭✭
    This is awesome Howard! Thank you! I cant' even express how useful this will be! I can't wait to try this tonight.
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,096 ✭✭
    edited Jun 29, 2016 #8
    I shouldn't really matter if it's on grass or mats. However, it would likely be 'safer' to have the ball tee'd up a little instead of right on the ground or mat. That way if the club comes in a little on the heavy side, it's less likely to influence the results. You want to make sure the mark gets transferred to the face prior to the head's contact with the ground.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    creasy54 wrote:


    Have you used these on grass Howard, or mats only?




    Both, but i did not get enough user tests done to make sure its good on the hole spectrum from 0 to 3 both ways, but if indoor or at a range, the softer the mat is the more natural will the players swing be. A thin math on a concrete surface is just like the lie board, the player dont swing as he does out on the course, so if you have the option of doing this from a grass surface on the range you should get the best results.



    A white board pen (dry erase) should not make any harm to range balls, but do ask before you do it, and make sure its allowed to hit from real turf.
  • BobtrumpetBobtrumpet Members Posts: 236 ✭✭
    Howard, thanks for doing this!



    Any chance you can put the PDF in your Dropbox and then give permission to get the file (like your spreadsheet that you've shared previously)? Some of us don't do FB.
  • smellysellsmellysell North Butte ♥ KSig Members Posts: 1,000
    Awesome, thanks Howard!
  • cxxcxx Members Posts: 3,092 ✭✭
    Hey Howard,



    Maybe I haven't got my head around this universal label. It does seem that the angles on the label are about 10 degrees apart rather than 1 degree. It also seems that the labels are intended to be used on irons regardless of loft. It seems like the loft of the iron would change the displayed angle because of the projection of the line onto the face. When looking at the marked label, face on, the angle would appear even smaller as loft increases.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #14
    cxx wrote:


    Hey Howard,



    Maybe I haven't got my head around this universal label. It does seem that the angles on the label are about 10 degrees apart rather than 1 degree. It also seems that the labels are intended to be used on irons regardless of loft. It seems like the loft of the iron would change the displayed angle because of the projection of the line onto the face. When looking at the marked label, face on, the angle would appear even smaller as loft increases.




    Yes, the label itself has a full 360* protractor and markings is in the relationship 1:10, but thats how this marks moves around, and thats good for us, because if it was 1:1 we would never be able to make it this way. ive only used them for #6 irons so far, but since i no longer have a bending machine at hand. i cant keep up my own testing on this, so i thought i let others onto it.



    No matter what, when lie angle is good, it will be a vertical line and if that line is heel or toe side, you have other issues to look into.

    The way the lines are printed on the label now is how they move in a ideal world, so when more upright is needed, impact will most often be a bit heel side and when more flat is needed impact tend to be toe side like this lines.



    The original label i made also had a gauge in the bottom for club length (go longer or shorter), but i removed it to simplify it in use and to prevent someone from trying to solve a possible swing issue by a club length change. (heel or toe impact is not always a length issue, it can be a swing or club balance issue)



    When testing, make sure your grip is at the correct position on the club.

    The 2 white rings around the end of the grip shall NOT be covered by your hand. (no hand contact above the lowest of the 2 rings). Also make sure ball position and wide in your stance is like it should be for the actual club.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #15
    This illustrates better how impact prints typically ends up vs Lie angle.

    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    The way i have used this method has been based on the #6 iron.

    - When correct lie on the #6 iron is found, the hole set is adjusted plus or minus standard specs like the #6 iron. (ex .standard, 1 up or 1 flat all the way)

    Then all clubs is tested with the ball marker method, and if one or more clubs did not turn out right, tweak them.
  • BuddhaBuddha Members Posts: 757
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aki1ta1fekbia4/avery lie test.doc?dl=0



    This is a link to a doc file for the Avery 5160 address labels template, with Howards image perfectly fit. It was the easiest label for me to pick up locally, and his original pdf didn't line up to the stickers.



    Just in case anyone else picks up those labels to print with.
    WITB....For now at least. Who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to be a true ho.

    2017 WITB

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    Callaway MD3 Black Matte W Grind - 54°
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    Odyssey Toe Up #1 - 35"

    All wedges at 36"

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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #18
    Buddha wrote:


    https://www.dropbox....e test.doc?dl=0



    This is a link to a doc file for the Avery 5160 address labels template, with Howards image perfectly fit. It was the easiest label for me to pick up locally, and his original pdf didn't line up to the stickers.



    Just in case anyone else picks up those labels to print with.
    Buddha wrote:


    https://www.dropbox....e test.doc?dl=0



    This is a link to a doc file for the Avery 5160 address labels template, with Howards image perfectly fit. It was the easiest label for me to pick up locally, and his original pdf didn't line up to the stickers.



    Just in case anyone else picks up those labels to print with.




    What did you need to adjust, and what size do they have now if you measure the outer black frame in length and wide?

    I only have access to metric standard paper size here (A4), so i can only test print virtual in LETTER size to a file who become PDF
  • BuddhaBuddha Members Posts: 757
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #19
    I used an Avery 18160 address label paper. It has 2 5/8 x 1 labels, so just slightly bigger than the size of your labels. From the .doc file, the margins listed are .5" top, .25" left, .31" right, .42" bottom. That appears about right, the labels starting at just about 1/2" from the top of the paper, and just about 1/4" from the left margin. There is about 1/4 inch between each of the 3 columns, and vertically, it is just one after the other, no real space. I just want to note that this could be just from one paper maker. Not sure how it will compare to other imperial based papers.
    WITB....For now at least. Who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to be a true ho.

    2017 WITB

    Driver Callaway X-Hot Pro Matrix White Tie 6x4 Stiff 10.5°
    3W Callaway X-Hot Project X Velocity Stiff 15°
    3Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 19°
    4Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 22°
    5-PW Callaway XR DG S300
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte S Grind - 48°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte W Grind - 54°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte C Grind - 60°
    Odyssey Toe Up #1 - 35"

    All wedges at 36"

    GameGolf
  • denkeadenkea Members Posts: 373 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #20
    I would think that you could just print the label on firm cardboard stock (so it could be used and reused) and, instead of attaching the label to the club face, just compare the marks on the face with the label.

    Just noodling the method.

    BTW Years ago there was an indoor practice/fitting ball that had a cutout approx 3mm wide around the circumference of the ball. You then lined up the cutout perpendicular to the horizon/ground so when hit with face labels it would show the ball imprint with no imprint where the cavity of the cutout was.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #21
    denkea wrote:


    I would think that you could just print the label on firm cardboard stock (so it could be used and reused) and, instead of attaching the label to the club face, just compare the marks on the face with the label.

    Just noodling the method.

    BTW Years ago there was an indoor practice/fitting ball that had a cutout approx 3mm wide around the circumference of the ball. You then lined up the cutout perpendicular to the horizon/ground so when hit with face labels it would show the ball imprint with no imprint where the cavity of the cutout was.




    Its still a "prototype" and still subject for change and tweak, but my idea was to get it printed or engraved in a transparent 1/8" thick plastic so you only need 1, if it turns out that one model is good for all clubs. A "gauge" like that should be possible to get mass produced for a silly low price.
  • BobaluBobalu Members Posts: 919 ✭✭

    denkea wrote:


    I would think that you could just print the label on firm cardboard stock (so it could be used and reused) and, instead of attaching the label to the club face, just compare the marks on the face with the label.

    Just noodling the method.

    BTW Years ago there was an indoor practice/fitting ball that had a cutout approx 3mm wide around the circumference of the ball. You then lined up the cutout perpendicular to the horizon/ground so when hit with face labels it would show the ball imprint with no imprint where the cavity of the cutout was.




    Its still a "prototype" and still subject for change and tweak, but my idea was to get it printed or engraved in a transparent 1/8" thick plastic so you only need 1, if it turns out that one model is good for all clubs. A "gauge" like that should be possible to get mass produced for a silly low price.




    Howard, Callaway has already done it.



  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    edited Jun 30, 2016 #23
    Yes, i have seen them (on a photo here on the WRX), but they are not available for everyone, and i have only seen a photo of it, so i dont know actual angles on that label.



    Edit.

    I just measured that Label posted above from Callaway, and it seems to be 10:1 on that one too.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,546 ✭✭
    i posted a photo of my first measure system i used myself about 2 years ago, its a "ruler type", and this link shows a photo of whats behind the one i made now who simply is a EVO version who is easier to read than the ruler type who was supposed to take care of both Lie angle and Play length testing at once, buts its to complicated to read, and length has error sources, so the latest is based on the old one, but without the play length gauge.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355712-lie-angle-and-heel-to-toe-impact-position-question/#entry13841840
  • jrrjrr ClubWRX Posts: 723 ClubWRX
    Bobalu wrote:


    denkea wrote:


    I would think that you could just print the label on firm cardboard stock (so it could be used and reused) and, instead of attaching the label to the club face, just compare the marks on the face with the label.

    Just noodling the method.

    BTW Years ago there was an indoor practice/fitting ball that had a cutout approx 3mm wide around the circumference of the ball. You then lined up the cutout perpendicular to the horizon/ground so when hit with face labels it would show the ball imprint with no imprint where the cavity of the cutout was.




    Its still a "prototype" and still subject for change and tweak, but my idea was to get it printed or engraved in a transparent 1/8" thick plastic so you only need 1, if it turns out that one model is good for all clubs. A "gauge" like that should be possible to get mass produced for a silly low price.




    Howard, Callaway has already done it.









    I called Callaway customer service 2 weeks ago and asked if I could buy or somehow get the fitting label. Got "not available". No suggestions of where to get them.
  • TMBobTMBob Members Posts: 5,373 ✭✭
  • BuddhaBuddha Members Posts: 757
    Bobalu wrote:




    Howard, Callaway has already done it.







    It's a good thing most people/companies don't decide to just stop something because it has already been done. Can you imagine a world with only 1 car model/manufacturer, only one TV/phone/computer, etc.
    WITB....For now at least. Who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to be a true ho.

    2017 WITB

    Driver Callaway X-Hot Pro Matrix White Tie 6x4 Stiff 10.5°
    3W Callaway X-Hot Project X Velocity Stiff 15°
    3Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 19°
    4Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 22°
    5-PW Callaway XR DG S300
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte S Grind - 48°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte W Grind - 54°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte C Grind - 60°
    Odyssey Toe Up #1 - 35"

    All wedges at 36"

    GameGolf
  • BuddhaBuddha Members Posts: 757
    TMBob wrote:




    Not working on my iPad.....do I need an app or a different format?




    They are PDF files, so you just need an app that can open PDF.
    WITB....For now at least. Who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to be a true ho.

    2017 WITB

    Driver Callaway X-Hot Pro Matrix White Tie 6x4 Stiff 10.5°
    3W Callaway X-Hot Project X Velocity Stiff 15°
    3Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 19°
    4Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 22°
    5-PW Callaway XR DG S300
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte S Grind - 48°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte W Grind - 54°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte C Grind - 60°
    Odyssey Toe Up #1 - 35"

    All wedges at 36"

    GameGolf
  • TMBobTMBob Members Posts: 5,373 ✭✭
    Buddha wrote:

    TMBob wrote:




    Not working on my iPad.....do I need an app or a different format?




    They are PDF files, so you just need an app that can open PDF.




    Got it thanks
  • BuddhaBuddha Members Posts: 757
    I had a question regarding lie angles that I figure Howard or other knowledgeable people can answer for me. Does head design affect lie angle? If you are say 62° on a 37" 7i, will you always be 62° at 37", or can he head design change enough to make say a 61° or 63° possible?
    WITB....For now at least. Who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to be a true ho.

    2017 WITB

    Driver Callaway X-Hot Pro Matrix White Tie 6x4 Stiff 10.5°
    3W Callaway X-Hot Project X Velocity Stiff 15°
    3Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 19°
    4Hy Callaway X2 Hot Matrix Kujoh R 22°
    5-PW Callaway XR DG S300
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte S Grind - 48°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte W Grind - 54°
    Callaway MD3 Black Matte C Grind - 60°
    Odyssey Toe Up #1 - 35"

    All wedges at 36"

    GameGolf
  • EnfynetEnfynet Bogey Golf Members Posts: 978
    Lie angle is the angle the shaft rises above horizontal when the club face is square and level.
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