Open source Face Labels for Lie angle - DIY lie angle testing

[02bluesuperroo]

Any way we can get this file reposted?  I get 404 from the original link.

[cxx]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:39 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

I've thought over the same question myself.   While I can't say for sure, but looking at slo-mo impacts, I have to believe it's a consequence of the compression and deformation of the ball at impact that causes the distortion how the mark is transferred to the face.

 

I've always been bothered by using the amount of tilt of the marks on the label to guess at the amount of bending required to get vertical marks and the correct lie angle. It's pretty simple when considering a loft of zero. The marks directly reflect the lie angle.

 

It would stand to reason that with a lofted club, the line would be elongated and show a reduced angle if the ball rolled up the face. I'm not sure that's the case.   There are high speed images of iron shots that show the ball deforming against the face like a spring and rebounding with spin.  I'm not sure how that would relate to the degree of tilt on the label mark.  It might be that the direction to bend rather than direction and magnitude is the best we can get. It would have to be an iterative process.

 

[jak77]

8 hours ago, 02bluesuperroo said:

Any way we can get this file reposted?  I get 404 from the original link.

 

@Howard_Jones Can we get this file again? Thanks!

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, jak77 said:

 

@Howard_Jones Can we get this file again? Thanks!

'

Use the links in post #11 on page 1

[jak77]

4 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

'

Use the links in post #11 on page 1

 

Awesome.  Thanks Howard!

[02bluesuperroo]

13 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

'

Use the links in post #11 on page 1

 

Thank you!  🤦‍♂️

 

One question I have though is how does it account for the fact that the grooves are not always perfectly parallel to the sole?

[cxx]

47 minutes ago, 02bluesuperroo said:

 

Thank you!  🤦‍♂️

 

One question I have though is how does it account for the fact that the grooves are not always perfectly parallel to the sole?

It's not about ground effects of the sole (except maybe in extreme misfits) but about getting the face level with the ground.  The grooves are a pretty good reference for the face alignment.

 

Some irons have a rounded shape. Not sure how you would align the face without using the grooves in that case.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, 02bluesuperroo said:

 

Thank you!  🤦‍♂️

 

One question I have though is how does it account for the fact that the grooves are not always perfectly parallel to the sole?

 The SOLE itself dont matter here, its the LOFT PLANE that matters, not sole or grooves, but when you judge impact lines, what you got is the grooves, so YOU are the one to judge if the grooves is off vs the loft plane, the label has no clue about that.

[02bluesuperroo]

42 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

 The SOLE itself dont matter here, its the LOFT PLANE that matters, not sole or grooves, but when you judge impact lines, what you got is the grooves, so YOU are the one to judge if the grooves is off vs the loft plane, the label has no clue about that.

 

When I put the clubs in my spec gauge and align the leveling head, the grooves are not always perfectly level when the club is properly aligned for lie angle measurement.  What it sounds like you're saying is that if the grooves are off, which they often are, then the readings on the label will not be 100% correct if the label is aligned with the grooves (which makes sense). This is something that people should be aware of.  That being said, I don't think the grooves would be more than a degree or two off from level so I think that means at most 1/10th to 1/5th of a degree of error introduced in the lie angle?  That seems pretty minor.

 

 

1 hour ago, cxx said:

Some irons have a rounded shape. Not sure how you would align the face without using the grooves in that case.

 

Most irons have a rounded shape sole.  This is what a spec gauge is for.  You align it so that the portion of the sole that rests on the ground is equally distributed on either side of the centerline of the face.  This is the neutral position for measure loft and lie.  In this position, the grooves will often not be perfectly level.   You can learn more here: https://www.golfworks.com/images/art/GW1040.pdf

 

[Howard_Jones]

6 minutes ago, 02bluesuperroo said:

 

When I put the clubs in my spec gauge and align the leveling head, the grooves are not always perfectly level when the club is properly aligned for lie angle measurement.  What it sounds like you're saying is that if the grooves are off, which they often are, then the readings on the label will not be 100% correct if the label is aligned with the grooves (which makes sense). This is something that people should be aware of.  That being said, I don't think the grooves would be more than a degree or two off from level so I think that means at most 1/10th to 1/5th of a degree of error introduced in the lie angle?  That seems pretty minor.

 

 

 

Most irons have a rounded shape sole.  This is what a spec gauge is for.  You align it so that the portion of the sole that rests on the ground is equally distributed on either side of the centerline of the face.  This is the neutral position for measure loft and lie.  In this position, the grooves will often not be perfectly level.   You can learn more here: https://www.golfworks.com/images/art/GW1040.pdf

 

What you are into now is strictly THEORY, thats not how it works real life, especially NOT on FORGED irons and i will explain why.

Grooves is NOT printed to the club face vs the sole, it NEVER is.
To find the angle to print the groves, we need LOFT AND LIE to find the position FACE ANGLE AND LOFT IS NEUTRAL...Thats the position groves is printed onto the face.

Soles is HAND GRINDED on almost all forged irons before chrome plating, so its a question of "mood of the day" on the club grinder for how ACTUAL sole shape on each head becomes, and if you think you will find 2 heads thats equal, you have never sorted club heads, they have ALL the tolerances and varities a HAND MADE product has, so if we take for granted that the sole is "perfect" vs the LOFT PLANE...we fool ourself.

The IDEAL will always be a Trackman AND the ball marker test combined...
IF Face to path is 0*, the tilt on the spin axis 0* Lie angle is 100% neutral
If face to path is 1*, the tilt on the spin axis is 3* Lie angle is 100% neutral
If face to path is 2*, the tilt on the spin axis is 6* Lie angle is 100% neutral
If face to path is 2*, the tilt on the spin axis is 7.5* Lie angle is 0.5* off neutral

[02bluesuperroo]

I felt like I needed to go 1 degree upright with my 6-iron and if I'm doing everything properly then it looks like my suspicion would be confirmed here.  However, I'm not sure that I am.  What do you think @Howard_Jones.  Thanks for responding to my posts.  🙂

[Howard_Jones]

If your alignment of the label is 100% (lowest black line = lowest groove), then the ACTUAL is 0.80-0.85* more upright vs what it is now (go for closest 0.5* in the bending machine, so if its let say 61.2 now, go to 62.0*, if its 61.5 now, go for 62.5*)

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[02bluesuperroo]

5 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

If your alignment of the label is 100% (lowest black line = lowest groove), then the ACTUAL is 0.80-0.85* more upright vs what it is now (go for closest 0.5* in the bending machine, so if its let say 61.2 now, go to 62.0*, if its 61.5 now, go for 62.5*)
 

 

Thanks for demonstrating how you determined that.  The label's bottom line is on the bottom groove and is aligned more perfectly than it appears in the picture but probably 99%.  I will do some more testing and then make some lie tweaks and do some more testing.  I have access to a GC2 but I don't think I can get that "tilt on the spin axis" number.  Thanks again for creating this label and more-so for answering questions and helping people out. I am excited to go through my bag and dial in each club with this method because I think it will yield great results.

[Howard_Jones]

CG2 without HTM cant do it, you need face to path to explain spin axis (1:3), all below or above will be from lie angles. 

There is 17.365 rpms side spin for each 1* of Tilt for each 1000 rpm....
If we double the tilt, we double side spin, and if we double back spin (on the same axis), we also double side spin.

Formula for EXCEL

((Actual Side spin as rpm / 17.365)/(Back spin/1000))

Example 2000 rpm back spin, 347.3 rpm side spin

((347.3/17.365)/(2000/1000)) = tilt is 10*

 

[JimmyC59]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

CG2 without HTM cant do it, you need face to path to explain spin axis (1:3), all below or above will be from lie angles. 

There is 17.365 rpms side spin for each 1* of Tilt for each 1000 rpm....
If we double the tilt, we double side spin, and if we double back spin (on the same axis), we also double side spin.

Formula for EXCEL

((Actual Side spin as rpm / 17.365)/(Back spin/1000))

Example 2000 rpm back spin, 347.3 rpm side spin

((347.3/17.365)/(2000/1000)) = tilt is 10*

 

Howard,

I just want to thank you for all the information you share in these forums. It's alway helpful and very informative.

Edited February 17, 2021 by JimmyC59

[Trap Junior]

I used the stickers and the line on the ball method.   I get a vertical line with 61 degree 6 iron, 62 degree 6 iron and 64 degree 6 iron

 

Why is that?

[jvincent]

5 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

I used the stickers and the line on the ball method.   I get a vertical line with 61 degree 6 iron, 62 degree 6 iron and 64 degree 6 iron

 

Why is that?

The obvious question would be are the clubs the same length? 

 

Next would be are the shafts the same?

 

I'm assuming the lies were measured accurately.

[Trap Junior]

50 minutes ago, jvincent said:

The obvious question would be are the clubs the same length? 

 

Next would be are the shafts the same?

 

I'm assuming the lies were measured accurately.

One is 1/4'' shorter.   The other 2 are the same length. All same shafts

[joostin]

Happened to watch a video where Golftec had a familiar looking label.  Someone browsing Howard threads and brought to work? 🤔

 

Around 14 min in:

 

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, joostin said:

Happened to watch a video where Golftec had a familiar looking label.  Someone browsing Howard threads and brought to work? 🤔

 

Around 14 min in:

 

Maybe? who knows.....
What i found interesting is that they seems to be using a special ball who can make that printed line on the label, i never saw that before, and i also notice they dont align the label "correct" (look at the almost visible groove vs the bottom of the label...it dont mean a lot, but measurement in general always have a "human factor", and this is one of them.)

There is also a few other things i notice about the fitting in general, but it would be off topic in this tread (grip size used for fitting vs the players need, launch, spin and descent judgement from a mat like it was turf etc, but thats how its done most places.)

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, jvincent said:

I'm assuming the lies were measured accurately.

 

Not an assumption I'd be comfortable making.  And the source of the lie numbers not being accurate is the most likely explanation.

 

Another possibility is that the player is letting the lie angle of the club effect his setup and swing.   Not really the easiest approach or recommended - but it's the results that matter.

 

Lie angles can be pretty tricky to measure accurately sometimes even for someone with a lot of experience doing it correctly.   Also lots of people with lots of experience doing it incorrectly out there.

[Howard_Jones]

11 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

I used the stickers and the line on the ball method.   I get a vertical line with 61 degree 6 iron, 62 degree 6 iron and 64 degree 6 iron

 

Why is that?

I would need ALL club specs to have a clue at all, but let me start by the lie angle measurements you post here, where do those numbers comes from?

 

[denkea]

5 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

What i found interesting is that they seems to be using a special ball who can make that printed line on the label,

Saw one years ago.  It's a solid piece ball with a "V" groove cut along the equator.

 

It was probably 20 years ago and it was an old fitting tool then.  

 

I would think that there would be a market for something like this in this day and age.  

 

 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

56 minutes ago, denkea said:

Saw one years ago.  It's a solid piece ball with a "V" groove cut along the equator.

 

It was probably 20 years ago and it was an old fitting tool then.  

 

I would think that there would be a market for something like this in this day and age.  

 

 

 

 

The easy way is using a tool like this, and draw a THIN strait line, and we can use any ball, and we dont need the labels on the face at all. A special ball plus labels push the costs way higher than needed, and my idea was to make this available for everyone, at the lowest cost possible.

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Alignment-Identification-Positioning-Sharpie/dp/B005D5VG14

The ball marker/sharpie test method was invented early in the 90s, but without any instruction or method to judge the need for how much adjustment that was needed, so it was really complicated where we had to bend a little and try again. All we knew was the needed direction (up or flat), and that made it useless for DIY use without a bending machine.

Now that guesswork is solved, and anyone can do it and judge it right, and if needed, send the clubs by mail for adjustment out of town.

[Trap Junior]

On 11/3/2021 at 11:56 AM, Howard_Jones said:

I would need ALL club specs to have a clue at all, but let me start by the lie angle measurements you post here, where do those numbers comes from?

 

I bent the lies in my own loft and lie machine.  I repeated the test yesterday and got the same results.

 

 

[cxx]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:56 AM, Howard_Jones said:

I would need ALL club specs to have a clue at all, but let me start by the lie angle measurements you post here, where do those numbers comes from?

 

 

On 11/2/2021 at 7:54 PM, Trap Junior said:

I used the stickers and the line on the ball method.   I get a vertical line with 61 degree 6 iron, 62 degree 6 iron and 64 degree 6 iron

 

Why is that?

 

Trap: Could be that the 64 degree iron has more toe droop than the others.  I would guess that you may be compensating for the lie angles using the way they look at address. Ball flights from shots with a dynamic lie difference of 3 degrees is pretty noticeable unless you're doing something to compensate. Those compensations may not last a whole round.

[me05501]

I don't think I'll adjust these more upright for now, but open to suggestions. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by me05501

[Stuart_G]

4 hours ago, me05501 said:

I don't think I'll adjust these more upright for now, but open to suggestions. 

 

 

If there is any fitting issues, it's not lie angle.  Maybe shaft weight or swing weight based on the difference in face impact location between the two marks on each label.  But that's just a first impression, lots of possibilities.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Jlocke22]

Woah. Printing now. Used to play Maltby irons that were 2* flat fitted on loft/lie board 10+ years ago. Took some time off but been playing standard Mizuno irons since last year. Like this science much more vs a loft/lie board. 

[Matisyahu]

I always wondered how people used the sharpie on ball to tell lie to the degree, but seeing now that it is really x10 than this makes it much more obvious.