ANGC Course Changes

cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5'sMembers Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
We've done this topic in past years



Here's what I have ... and I am well aware I'm no Tom Fazio. Just a fun debate on perhaps one of the top 5 iconic courses in the world. It's been a few years since they did some overhauling and I think we might see changes in play for 2019 ... 13th hole for sure.



#3. Slightly forward tee - or extend current tee - so more guys would go for it. Use either Saturday or Sunday.

#6. Bring back the pond and/or creek that used to front the green, re-shape and shift the front trap to get the H2O closer to the putting surface

#10. Push the massive old greenside bunker closer to the green so short shots run back down the hill into it

#11. Massive pine or trap right middle of 11 green to make bail outs more difficult. Likely trap so the fans on hole #12 grandstands can see the action. Pond used to go more in front of this green

#12. Add 10 yards ... sacrilege I know but get the big boys hitting one more iron here

#13. I understand they spent ~ $20mm for land to extend this tee back further. Personally, I don’t like the way the Rae’s Creek tributary ends in the middle of the fairway. That visual could be improved upon and dare I say another bridge pehaps

#14. Bring back the Alister MacKenzie bunkering on the right side of the fairway. Call it restoration work

#16. Find a way to add a tee 15-30 yards back

#17. Perhaps replace Ike’s tree but shift it a little left and farther off the tee
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  • One_Putt_BlunderOne_Putt_Blunder Members Posts: 10,795 ✭✭
    1: Get rid of the perfectly sculpted bunker edges and bring back the Alister Mackenzie jagged edge style



    2: Fix 11 clear some trees on the right returning it to more of a dog leg right.
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  • QManyQMany #TheWRX ClubWRX Posts: 9,036 ClubWRX
    I enjoyed Strange/O'Meara's takes on the recent NoLayingUp podcast. I liked the idea of shortening #7 and even making it driveable par four, even if just for one day.



    I would like for them to remove the thousands of trees they've planted that destroyed the original design, width, and angles.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    I agree. Many holes like #7 on both sides and the right side of #11 they added WAY WAY too many NEW loblolly pine trees .... and ruined the options of the potential for some bold Seve like recoveries and some bold tee balls over corners of dog legs



    There are some "new bunkers" I don't love either when you read up on the history of all the holes at ANGC. For example, on #17 MacKenzie did not have a front trap as he wanted players to have the option to hit a running shot onto that green if necessary. So I say ... lose that trap. Running shots into the green more exciting that a boring stock bunker explosion. Bunker shots are so simple nowadays for top players
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    QMany wrote:


    I enjoyed Strange/O'Meara's takes on the recent NoLayingUp podcast. I liked the idea of shortening #7 and even making it driveable par four, even if just for one day.



    I would like for them to remove the thousands of trees they've planted that destroyed the original design, width, and angles.




    #7 used to be 360 yards or so not too far back



    I will look for that podcast
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    Nobody else has ideas on this ????? No armchair course architects?
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  • ChillyDipperChillyDipper Members Posts: 1,024 ✭✭
    Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends. Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier. Agree with making #3 driveable again.
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  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555
    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭


    Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends. Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier. Agree with making #3 driveable again.




    ?
  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555
    Remove 80% of the trees and widen the corridors. Remove the first cut of rough to bring the pine straw back in play. Play it firm and fast as it was intended.
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2018 #11
    Widen 7, cut down the trees on the right on 11. Get rid of any rough and cut down a bunch of trees elsewhere. Get more run out of the fws. Make it so when guys hit it offline it keeps going so the angles at ANGC really come into play, this would encourage more aggressive play which would lead to more birdies and bogeys.





    The Masters are at its peak when it favors the bold, nothing worse than a Masters with a bunch of pars. I want birdies, eagles, and others. That's why I don't like 11, with the trees right the approach is so long that everyone just bails short right because they are scared to chase anything on with the mounds.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,166 ✭✭
    I agree with Knock. Get rid of all rough. Encourage the bold and daring.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭



    Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends. Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier. Agree with making #3 driveable again.




    ?




    Replying to myself here because I know what you mean now.
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭


    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on




    My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.
  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555



    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on




    My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.




    Why would he do that? He only did that at #2 because that's what the soil conditions were/are. It's not a sand base in Augusta so he would never do that.. He would however remove a ton of trees and probably restore the character of MacKenzie's bunkering.
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2018 #17



    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on




    My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.
    I get what you're saying but I don't think he'd go that way at ANGC. He did obviously at No2 but that was historically accurate with how Ross designed the course and fit the landscape. I would expect some tree removal, bunker remodling and a firming of the course from Ben but I don't think he'd go full Pinehurst because that really wasn't in ANGC history
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    stu_man wrote:




    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on




    My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.




    Why would he do that? He only did that at #2 because that's what the soil conditions were/are. It's not a sand base in Augusta so he would never do that.. He would however remove a ton of trees and probably restore the character of MacKenzie's bunkering.




    Perhaps not. It just seems like every Crenshaw course I hear about is some rugged, natural, sandy design. Which like I said, I do find to be cool. Just not at Augusta.
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,107 ✭✭
    Re-install Bermuda greens,
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:


    Re-install Bermuda greens,
    With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.
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  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555

    Nard_S wrote:


    Re-install Bermuda greens,
    With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.




    They could stop closing it every Summer and let their members play.. you know, the point of having a golf course. The issue is the bermuda was never fully out of domancy and there was still rye overseed. If they had bermuda greens and played in June... forget it. It would be insanely good.
  • donaldp83donaldp83 Members Posts: 359 ✭✭
    Force everyone to play a special "roll-back" golf ball there.
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  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    stu_man wrote:


    Nard_S wrote:


    Re-install Bermuda greens,
    With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.




    They could stop closing it every Summer and let their members play.. you know, the point of having a golf course. The issue is the bermuda was never fully out of domancy and there was still rye overseed. If they had bermuda greens and played in June... forget it. It would be insanely good.
    They've been closed in the summer since inception and had bermuda up until 1980 so that's not the reason. I'm sure the members are happy to summer in the Hamptons or hang out at Wade Hampton, than sweat their bag off in Augusta.
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  • ByeBye Posts: 1,307 ✭✭
    It’s maybe the one course that should be shortened a bit, holes like 11. The risk reward element has been lost a bit.
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,107 ✭✭

    Nard_S wrote:


    Re-install Bermuda greens,
    With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.




    The grain of Bermuda, it's just a bit all the more knarly and is tougher to putt on. They had that till 1980.
  • hollabachgthollabachgt Members Posts: 640 ✭✭

    stu_man wrote:




    Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on




    My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.




    Why would he do that? He only did that at #2 because that's what the soil conditions were/are. It's not a sand base in Augusta so he would never do that.. He would however remove a ton of trees and probably restore the character of MacKenzie's bunkering.




    Perhaps not. It just seems like every Crenshaw course I hear about is some rugged, natural, sandy design. Which like I said, I do find to be cool. Just not at Augusta.




    My guess is if C&C got carte blanche to work on Augusta, the restoration would be reminiscent of their work at Old Town, with a little less tall fescue..
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,107 ✭✭
    stu_man wrote:


    Nard_S wrote:


    Re-install Bermuda greens,
    With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.




    They could stop closing it every Summer and let their members play.. you know, the point of having a golf course. The issue is the bermuda was never fully out of domancy and there was still rye overseed. If they had bermuda greens and played in June... forget it. It would be insanely good.




    I think they could do it. Their greens have HVAC systems under them. They control temp and moisture. They make the flowers bloom with them, why not Bermuda?



    If not, make em speedy (which they really do not seem to be as much anymore) and try some new pin locations. Same spot on same day every year. At least it seems that way.
  • fillwelixfillwelix Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2018 #28
    Would love to see it shortened a bit, remove trees, make 11 an interesting hole again (shorten it, like someone mentioned put a bunker right to make the bail out harder), I would want to see a committee of O'Meara, Crenshaw, and Woods head the overhaul. Would be amazing. They'd do it justice.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    Coore and Crenshaw ... yes sir !!!!!!



    Any design changes that will free guys up to be bolder ... ie thinning trees .. has my vote
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2018 #30
    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.



    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.




    The thing is that was a green side trap in design ... so move it up to left and front of green.



    With today's tech and their billions they can recreate it exactly and have it be beside the green as AM intended. It's pretty but it's not in play at all



    Fazio does good stuff but he's not a restoration guy and maybe now with Ridley at the helm it could shift that way !



    I think their changes to date are overall focused on adding yardage ... which is ok .. but not while also pinching everything in
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  • hollabachgthollabachgt Members Posts: 640 ✭✭
    cardoustie wrote:


    #3. Slightly forward tee - or extend current tee - so more guys would go for it. Use either Saturday or Sunday.

    #6. Bring back the pond and/or creek that used to front the green, re-shape and shift the front trap to get the H2O closer to the putting surface

    #10. Push the massive old greenside bunker closer to the green so short shots run back down the hill into it

    #11. Massive pine or trap right middle of 11 green to make bail outs more difficult. Likely trap so the fans on hole #12 grandstands can see the action. Pond used to go more in front of this green

    #12. Add 10 yards ... sacrilege I know but get the big boys hitting one more iron here

    #13. I understand they spent ~ $20mm for land to extend this tee back further. Personally, I don’t like the way the Rae’s Creek tributary ends in the middle of the fairway. That visual could be improved upon and dare I say another bridge pehaps

    #14. Bring back the Alister MacKenzie bunkering on the right side of the fairway. Call it restoration work

    #16. Find a way to add a tee 15-30 yards back

    #17. Perhaps replace Ike’s tree but shift it a little left and farther off the tee




    #3: That seems like a viable change, but the hole isn't entirely undrivable today.

    #6: The creek/pond was probably 40 or 50 yards short of the green, which would require the hole to be dramatically shortened, or a drastic engineering change to bring it into play. Plus both the 12th and 16th greens are fronted by water, If your desire is to front the 6th with water, why not the 4th too?

    #10: Never going to happen.

    #11: Why do you believe the up/down from the right is that easy? Why do you believe the pond use to cover more green surface?

    #12: I like having the option, but I would not expect it to be used that often. One of the greatest benefits of the lengthening of the game is how the 12th has shifted from a full swing to an often some sort of 3/4 swing.

    #13: Where the creek crosses the fairway wouldn't even cross the mind of the pro's, but could greatly affect the play of the members.

    $14: It was removed because it was never in play. If anything a similar bunker could be moved closer to the 13th fairway to catch the super long drive that doesn't turn enough but on the whole, not worth the time.

    #16: There is room to do this, but what does it add to the hole?

    #17: There growing a tree to do this, not sure when it will be ready and if they will decide to replace it.



    I'd like explored returning the 7th back to a more appropriate 390-360 yards. Three is the shortest par 4 on the course at 350, with the next shortest hole at 440. This is a very large gap that could be addressed and the green at 7 was designed for a short yardage approach.



    The extension of the 5th tee will force the longer players to steer around the bunkers and leave nearly every player an obstructed view to the green for their approach. This would help to return some of the initial intent of the hole back into play. Now they would also need to ensure the approach is kept firm so players can run their approach shots onto the green.



    This last one is nitpicking a little, but I'd like to see them move the fairway bunker on 2 a little farther out and in towards the center of the fairway. The fall off to the left on that hole is a lot steeper than most realize and would make for a much tougher tee shot.
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