It's Spring Junior Tournament Season

jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,630 ClubWRX
Who's leaving the pin in this season?



No putts? Some putts? All putts?

Comments

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    Don’t leave the flag in on close putts. Cost my daughter a few strokes already ball hit the flag and bounced back about an inch and didn’t go in.



    The holes is bigger without the flag in take it out.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:


    Don't leave the flag in on close putts. Cost my daughter a few strokes already ball hit the flag and bounced back about an inch and didn't go in.



    The holes is bigger without the flag in take it out.




    That isn't what the stats say. If the stick popped it, she plain and simple hit it too hard.



    Outside of 4 feet my kid has been leaving it in so far. I have nothing to do with it either. We discussed and I told him it was up to him. He heard Hank Haney on PGA Network talking about this issue last Friday. Hank says that people are in idiot if they pull it out. In the long run it is going to save you strokes. You may never see them but at the end of the season your scoring differential should reflect. As a tournament golf it is all about the scoring differential (your tournament handicap). I believe I heard it will improve your scoring by 2%. That will be 1.44 strokes a round or better. Over the course of ten 36 hole tournaments that is over 500 strokes. I think I would leave the pin in.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:


    Don't leave the flag in on close putts. Cost my daughter a few strokes already ball hit the flag and bounced back about an inch and didn't go in.



    The holes is bigger without the flag in take it out.




    That isn't what the stats say. If the stick popped it, she plain and simple hit it too hard.



    Outside of 4 feet my kid has been leaving it in so far. I have nothing to do with it either. We discussed and I told him it was up to him. He heard Hank Haney on PGA Network talking about this issue last Friday. Hank says that people are in idiot if they pull it out. In the long run it is going to save you strokes. You may never see them but at the end of the season your scoring differential should reflect. As a tournament golf it is all about the scoring differential (your tournament handicap). I believe I heard it will improve your scoring by 2%. That will be 1.44 strokes a round or better. Over the course of ten 36 hole tournaments that is over 500 strokes. I think I would leave the pin in.




    I know what the stats say but it was a 3 foot putt and hit the pin and didn’t go down and ending up lipping the cup for a tap in.



    Honestly it didn’t drop like you would expect. Perhaps the pin was leaning to one side. Regardless it not a sure thing and you can not have the flag leaning in any direction into the wind otherwise your actually making the hole smaller.





  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    Must have been a stick with a higher coefficient of restitution.



    In all seriousness, the point of statistics is that they average out over time. Feel free to make a hasty decision on a few anecdotal putts. No one is claiming it improves your chances every single putt. But very smart minds, who get paid to talk about this stuff (unlike any of us) tend to agree that it can save a few strokes here and there.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    BertGA wrote:
    Must have been a stick with a higher coefficient of restitution.



    In all seriousness, the point of statistics is that they average out over time. Feel free to make a hasty decision on a few anecdotal putts. No one is claiming it improves your chances every single putt. But very smart minds, who get paid to talk about this stuff (unlike any of us) tend to agree that it can save a few strokes here and there.




    Yep. You are going to miss some. The point is over time you will miss more over time with it out. If it saves 1 stroke around that can be the difference in winning and losing.
  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    I was thinking we would try leaving the pin in on downhill putts, out for uphill. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I have a feeling that once one person pulls the pin it will stay out.
  • hangontighthangontight Members Posts: 543 ✭✭
    We have not played any tmnts yet this year. How is this working out in groups where different players have different preference? Seems it could potentially slow play and be distracting if the flag is going in- out-in-out.
  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭


    We have not played any tmnts yet this year. How is this working out in groups where different players have different preference? Seems it could potentially slow play and be distracting if the flag is going in- out-in-out.




    I agree I think it will slow play down but hopeful its offset by new caddie rules.
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    Played this morning, I think it’s still too early for people to have found a preference. Once the flag stick comes out it tends to stay out. Granted, this was a low-stakes tournament, only two in our group, not much on the line. Perhaps it will be different with more at stake.



    Personally, I think it will only speed up play. Most people will leave the stick in from distance, most will pull it out within 10 feet. To be honest, when you are five feet away, putting the stick back takes no significant amount of time if caddies are present. Maybe a little longer if it is just just the players on the green. The real time savings comes when everyone is 10 plus feet out, and no one has to make the walk over to remove the stick.
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    I do think what made our round a bit faster, too, was the green light to play ready golf. The rules changes encourage that, whereas before I felt you kind of had to ask. I know some tournaments have been encouraging that for some time, but I don't feel that was the case with USKG.
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 94 ✭✭
    edited Jan 13, 2019 11:25am #12
    My son has a HS tourney, an Am event and a junior event over the next month. I’ll ask him what he is seeing, in case that might be of interest to anyone.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    FWIW, and from what I've been seeing only- More accomplished players are pulling the flag while those of lower skill levels are leaving the flag in. If the net goal is to speed up play with this new rule, I just don't see it working.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 873 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:


    My son's experience today was similar to what Bert posted. My son wanted the flag out all day while the two other boys he played with didn't seem to care either way. There wasn't ever a time when someone wanted it back in after it had been taken out so my son made sure to take it out as soon as everyone was on the green.



    The only time he left the flag in was when he was on 18 and had a 15' putt up a ridge in the green and he didn't want to wait for one of the other kids that had air mailed the green so he putted it and it went in. I tried doing the 'I told you so' thing but he wasn't buying.




    Did the flag in or flag out effect your length of time for the round? I was thinking about this yesterday while we were out on the ski slopes for the 3rd time this year.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 873 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:




    This should help my kid as he has no problem blasting it 6-9 feet past the hole.
  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:


    FWIW, and from what I've been seeing only- More accomplished players are pulling the flag while those of lower skill levels are leaving the flag in. If the net goal is to speed up play with this new rule, I just don't see it working.




    I think once people and kids start learning its an advantage you will see that trend flip. Especially when PGA players start doing it more over time.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    darter79 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    FWIW, and from what I've been seeing only- More accomplished players are pulling the flag while those of lower skill levels are leaving the flag in. If the net goal is to speed up play with this new rule, I just don't see it working.




    I think once people and kids start learning its an advantage you will see that trend flip. Especially when PGA players start doing it more over time.




    I feel as though this is one of those topics that you can argue about till the cows come home. Regardless of how many studies are done, none of them can take into account the mental aspect of leaving the flag in vs. out. Lets face it, the only guy on tour leaving the flag in is BD and he is special. I could see more guys on the senior tour and possibly LPGA leaving the flag in, but there is no way it will catch on with PGA tour players. I mention PGA because they set the benchmark for what top tier juniors do and try to emulate.
  • hangontighthangontight Members Posts: 543 ✭✭
    edited Jan 19, 2019 7:47pm #18
    Played Copperhead Round 1 today. Kids wanted it in a few times on long putts, but for the most part once it was out it stayed out. No pace of play issue
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    leezer99 wrote:


    Was finally able to get out to the course and putt for a while today. Had the boy on the putting green about three feet from the hole and told him to hit the ball hard into the flag stick. It obviously didn't go in because he hit it so hard but it only caromed off about five feet or so. Then took the flag out and had him do the same thing... ball ended up forty feet away.



    He still doesn't believe me that leaving the flag stick in helps.



    I give up...




    Cuz it doesnt 🤣. Your test makes no sense either.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Jan 21, 2019 8:46am #20
    This is going to be a never ending issue regarding in if you should leave the pin or pull it. I honestly think it All equals out in the end. Sort of like hitting the cart path sometimes it bounces in you favor and other times not so.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    This is going to be a never ending issue regarding in if you should leave the pin or pull it. I honestly think it All equals out in the end. Sort of like hitting the cart path sometimes it bounces in you favor and other times not so.




    Have you ever run over a pothole in your car? You probably didn't do it on purpose and only because you didn't see it. If I put a cone in the pothole do you think you'd have run it over? Same scenario for putting... it is easier to see the hole with the flagstick in making it easier to judge distances. Since I think we'll all agree that speed control is the most important part of putting it only makes sense to leave it in. Plus if you do happen to hit a putt too hard and it hits the flagstick the COR of the flagstick will slow it down and keep the ball closer to the hole than without it and a putt closer to the hole has a higher make percentage. Why do players chip from off the green to a downhill hole with the flagstick in? In case it hits it, right? Stop thinking traditionally and use a more science based approach and you'll see that I'm right.




    Some people take the flagstick out when they chip because the hole is bigger. On a science approach a larger hole will also yield better results the flagstick in actually does make the hole smaller.



    At the end of the day what probably matters is how you putt. If you tend to hit it too far leave the flagstick in . If you tend to be pretty good on speed or leave it short flagstick out.



    Either way if you have correct speed it will go in.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    edited Jan 21, 2019 12:12pm #22
    kekoa wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Was finally able to get out to the course and putt for a while today. Had the boy on the putting green about three feet from the hole and told him to hit the ball hard into the flag stick. It obviously didn't go in because he hit it so hard but it only caromed off about five feet or so. Then took the flag out and had him do the same thing... ball ended up forty feet away.



    He still doesn't believe me that leaving the flag stick in helps.



    I give up...




    Cuz it doesnt ��. Your test makes no sense either.




    All the stats and data say you will make more with it in than out.



    It is going to be just like push carts. 5 years ago you never saw boy's using push carts in junior events or college. Now they are abundant because the research says they can save you strokes by using one.



    In 5 years, everyone will be putting with the flag stick in. If not, you will be losing strokes to the field.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:




    Either way if you have correct speed it will go in.




    You're eliminating the speed variable in putting by saying 'if you have the correct speed'. The speed variable will be there on every putt you hit for the rest of your life, don't eliminate it by pretending you hit perfect speed putts every time.



    IF... If ifs and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.




    If your speed is wrong then your not going to make putts. Yes it will help you if you hit it hard but your still going to behind a person who has correct speed.

    The best people who putt tend have tendency to have good feel for speed that means flag or no flag it would have probably dropped.



  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    Either way if you have correct speed it will go in.




    You're eliminating the speed variable in putting by saying 'if you have the correct speed'. The speed variable will be there on every putt you hit for the rest of your life, don't eliminate it by pretending you hit perfect speed putts every time.



    IF... If ifs and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.




    If your speed is wrong then your not going to make putts. Yes it will help you if you hit it hard but your still going to behind a person who has correct speed.

    The best people who putt tend have tendency to have good feel for speed that means flag or no flag it would have probably dropped.




    With the flag stick in you can eliminate break from certain distances by ramming it in with the flag stick in.



    There hasn't been one test done yet that has said it is more beneficial to take the flag stick out.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ZXh7g11C8
  • wlmwlm Members Posts: 94 ✭✭
    Day one of a high level high school tournament...and not much has changed. The flag was pulled regularly for putts (and a couple of short chips). It was left in on a couple of long putts. I think it will be slow adoption, primarily because it will take better players time to get used to it.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Was finally able to get out to the course and putt for a while today. Had the boy on the putting green about three feet from the hole and told him to hit the ball hard into the flag stick. It obviously didn't go in because he hit it so hard but it only caromed off about five feet or so. Then took the flag out and had him do the same thing... ball ended up forty feet away.



    He still doesn't believe me that leaving the flag stick in helps.



    I give up...




    Cuz it doesnt ��. Your test makes no sense either.




    Then by all means please continue taking the pin out on all putts and let me know how the competition at Saddleback is in ten years.



    edit: I'll admit that was pretty mean... but if you're pulling the flag on anything more than a tap in you are going to lose strokes to the players that leave it in.




    Yah thats why all the players on the pga tour are leaving the flag in. Oh wait....
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    edited Jan 22, 2019 9:16am #27
    kekoa wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Was finally able to get out to the course and putt for a while today. Had the boy on the putting green about three feet from the hole and told him to hit the ball hard into the flag stick. It obviously didn't go in because he hit it so hard but it only caromed off about five feet or so. Then took the flag out and had him do the same thing... ball ended up forty feet away.



    He still doesn't believe me that leaving the flag stick in helps.



    I give up...




    Cuz it doesnt ��. Your test makes no sense either.




    Then by all means please continue taking the pin out on all putts and let me know how the competition at Saddleback is in ten years.



    edit: I'll admit that was pretty mean... but if you're pulling the flag on anything more than a tap in you are going to lose strokes to the players that leave it in.




    Yah thats why all the players on the pga tour are leaving the flag in. Oh wait....




    Doesn't mean they are right.



    As they become accustomed to this rule, more and more will leave it in for certain putts because the science says a higher percentage of putts will fall with the flag stick in.



    https://www.golf.com...ule-change-2018
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,065 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:
    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Was finally able to get out to the course and putt for a while today. Had the boy on the putting green about three feet from the hole and told him to hit the ball hard into the flag stick. It obviously didn't go in because he hit it so hard but it only caromed off about five feet or so. Then took the flag out and had him do the same thing... ball ended up forty feet away.



    He still doesn't believe me that leaving the flag stick in helps.



    I give up...




    Cuz it doesnt ��. Your test makes no sense either.




    Then by all means please continue taking the pin out on all putts and let me know how the competition at Saddleback is in ten years.



    edit: I'll admit that was pretty mean... but if you're pulling the flag on anything more than a tap in you are going to lose strokes to the players that leave it in.




    Yah thats why all the players on the pga tour are leaving the flag in. Oh wait....




    $5 says you change your tune if this happens.



Sign In or Register to comment.