Caddie Penalty

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  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    edited Feb 2, 2019 6:41am #32


    Denny McCarthy....look it up....sickening! I look forward to this getting changed along with the Tour Championship format!



    Stance to practice swing is apparently stance to shot.




    Yeah, saw that after I posted. BS. I’m on the fence on Haotong, but Denny was someone being a little too eager.



    I’m pretty sure the inevitable conclusion to all this is instant replay.
  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    Denny McCarthy....look it up....sickening! I look forward to this getting changed along with the Tour Championship format!



    Stance to practice swing is apparently stance to shot.


    I call it, "on the job training".




    the rule in general is great where caddies can't line up players but how its written is stupid.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,094 ✭✭
    edited Feb 2, 2019 10:38am #35



    https://mobile.twitt...478669892218880



    Davep043–this should be penalty too?




    Dave will tell you the same thing. What does the Rule say?




    On the Rickie one, I'd like to see a longer clip, but it does seem that the caddie may not have been intentionally standing on the line. That's an important part of the rule, the caddie has to be deliberately standing on or near the line. A longer video might change my perception of that, but I can accept the decision not to penalize him.




    Denny McCarthy....look it up....sickening! I look forward to this getting changed along with the Tour Championship format!



    Stance to practice swing is apparently stance to shot.




    In the McCarthy one, the caddie is clearly intentionally standing exactly on the line while McCarthy makes several practice swings, and then moves before the player begins to take his actual stance at the ball itself. So the question becomes an evaluation of whether McCarthy "has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given" in which case "it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance." Those quotes are from the Interpretations of the Rules, its important to read those before commenting on the decision, and on the rule itself. I'd say this qualifies, his feet are parallel to and only a couple of inches from where he'll actually take his stance, so that penalty is appropriate based on the rules as written.

    I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green. To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.
  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,630 ClubWRX
    I'll say this a succinctly as possible.



    The rule as it's written is stupid.







    Add this rule to the ongoing stupid rules list brought on by the USGA.





    Belly putters are just fine for a half century...uh oh...Keegan won our Major using a belly putter. Hurry...let's change the rules despite evidence that the putters provide no advantage.



    Why? Because tradition and stuff.



    Oh yeah...while we're at it...let's trick up another Major...burn the greens...and make sure everyone hates the course...to prove a point.



    Why? Because tradition and stuff.



  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭
    davep043 wrote:





    Dave will tell you the same thing. What does the Rule say?




    On the Rickie one, I'd like to see a longer clip, but it does seem that the caddie may not have been intentionally standing on the line. That's an important part of the rule, the caddie has to be deliberately standing on or near the line. A longer video might change my perception of that, but I can accept the decision not to penalize him.




    Denny McCarthy....look it up....sickening! I look forward to this getting changed along with the Tour Championship format!



    Stance to practice swing is apparently stance to shot.




    In the McCarthy one, the caddie is clearly intentionally standing exactly on the line while McCarthy makes several practice swings, and then moves before the player begins to take his actual stance at the ball itself. So the question becomes an evaluation of whether McCarthy "has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given" in which case "it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance." Those quotes are from the Interpretations of the Rules, its important to read those before commenting on the decision, and on the rule itself. I'd say this qualifies, his feet are parallel to and only a couple of inches from where he'll actually take his stance, so that penalty is appropriate based on the rules as written.

    I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green. To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.




    Intention has nothing to do with it just a badly written rule.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,066 ✭✭
    I agree with the spirit of the rule. The USGA screws up anything they touch anymore.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,094 ✭✭
    darter79 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:



    https://mobile.twitt...478669892218880



    Davep043–this should be penalty too?




    Dave will tell you the same thing. What does the Rule say?




    On the Rickie one, I'd like to see a longer clip, but it does seem that the caddie may not have been intentionally standing on the line. That's an important part of the rule, the caddie has to be deliberately standing on or near the line. A longer video might change my perception of that, but I can accept the decision not to penalize him.




    Denny McCarthy....look it up....sickening! I look forward to this getting changed along with the Tour Championship format!



    Stance to practice swing is apparently stance to shot.




    In the McCarthy one, the caddie is clearly intentionally standing exactly on the line while McCarthy makes several practice swings, and then moves before the player begins to take his actual stance at the ball itself. So the question becomes an evaluation of whether McCarthy "has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given" in which case "it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance." Those quotes are from the Interpretations of the Rules, its important to read those before commenting on the decision, and on the rule itself. I'd say this qualifies, his feet are parallel to and only a couple of inches from where he'll actually take his stance, so that penalty is appropriate based on the rules as written.

    I wonder if this rule might be revised to allow the player to step away and begin his routine and avoid a penalty in all locations, rather than only on the putting green. To me, the penalty for the practice swings seems beyond the intent of the rule.




    Intention has nothing to do with it just a badly written rule.




    Intention has something to do with it, in two ways. First is that the caddie has to "deliberately" stand in that position. The caddie has to intentionally be standing on or near the the line when the player begins to take his stance. Once the caddie has deliberately taken that position, he is REQUIRED to move away before the player STARTS to take his stance.



    Intention is important in another sense, that of the Ruling Bodies watching how things play out, making sure that the rules have their intended effect. You can look here:

    http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/caddie-standing-behind-a-player-to-help-line-player-up.html

    to understand the stated intention of the rule change. If its not working out as desired, or if there are unanticipated and undesirable consequences, they can and should clarify or alter the rule. That's what I believe is happening now, with the Slugger White interview and other releases by the USGA.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,066 ✭✭
    They rescinded the penalty for McCarthy. I hope the Tour tells the USGA to go to ****.
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    Looks like the PGA consulted with USGA, retracted the penalty on McCarthy.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,094 ✭✭


    They rescinded the penalty for McCarthy. I hope the Tour tells the USGA to go to ****.


    that won't happen, they wouldnt do any better writing their own rules, and they'd actually have to accept responsibility when they have the inevitable problems.
  • bulls9999bulls9999 Members Posts: 697 ✭✭
    OK, so the R&A/USGA now 'fixed the caddie alignment' thing by saying if the player backs off and resets, then it's no longer a 'caddie alignment problem'. No, my 2-cents. I can see on a green..... there is an 'invisible line' for the line of the ball to take and you can follow from the putter head, visually, to see if there is alignment on/near the line of the putt.



    But....from the rough/fairway, some 100+ yards away, are you kidding me? alignment of shot will depend on how the player swings the club, a little from the inside, a little over the top and the ball takes a completely different path. Can you really expect help from someone aligning your stance on a distant iron shot?....(unless the person is that far off and aiming 45-degrees off to one side?....these are PGA pro's).
    GHIN Index 13.8
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,094 ✭✭
    bulls9999 wrote:


    OK, so the R&A/USGA now 'fixed the caddie alignment' thing by saying if the player backs off and resets, then it's no longer a 'caddie alignment problem'. No, my 2-cents. I can see on a green..... there is an 'invisible line' for the line of the ball to take and you can follow from the putter head, visually, to see if there is alignment on/near the line of the putt.



    But....from the rough/fairway, some 100+ yards away, are you kidding me? alignment of shot will depend on how the player swings the club, a little from the inside, a little over the top and the ball takes a completely different path. Can you really expect help from someone aligning your stance on a distant iron shot?....(unless the person is that far off and aiming 45-degrees off to one side?....these are PGA pro's).


    So obviously there's no reason for the caddie to stand there. So move!



    And apparently there was some benefit perceived by at least a few players, how many LPGA professionals had their caddie behind them on every single shot, stepping away only at the last moment before they took the club back?
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,066 ✭✭
    USGA has completely messed this rule up. Just come out and say that a caddie can’t line up a player. Stop with the games. Amateur organization writing amateur rules.
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