Motorcycle Move - Inconsistent

dblindendblinden Members Posts: 101 ✭✭

When used in transition, bowing the left wrist yields excellent results in swing path and contact. The challenge is doing this consistently. I practice at home and at range trying to ingrain this motor pattern, but not getting it into permanent status. For anyone who's gone down a similar path, is there something else that might be causing a barrier to learning this and making it consistent? You would think that a positive outcome would be self-reinforcing, but the old pattern persists regardless.

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  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Members Posts: 5,597 ✭✭

    That's just the reality of learning. Just keep at it, do it in slow motion, watch it on camera, etc. Yeah, you'd think positive outcome would do the trick (and sometimes, it sorta does!) but mainly it's just time, focus and reps, at least for me.

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  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,291 ✭✭

    Yes reps at less than full speed. I found lead hand only swings work well. Trail hand too.
    Educating the hands thru release by themselves is a money drill.

  • dblindendblinden Members Posts: 101 ✭✭

    I think one barrier is tension in right (trail) hand at the top. Want to know if there are other factors that could interfere.
    Educated hands would definitely be a good thing. Although I managed to obtain a PhD, my hands have never passed the third grade.

  • moehoganmoehogan Members Posts: 1,025 ✭✭
    edited Mar 23, 2019 8:24pm #5

    @dblinden said:
    When used in transition, bowing the left wrist yields excellent results in swing path and contact. The challenge is doing this consistently. I practice at home and at range trying to ingrain this motor pattern, but not getting it into permanent status. For anyone who's gone down a similar path, is there something else that might be causing a barrier to learning this and making it consistent? You would think that a positive outcome would be self-reinforcing, but the old pattern persists regardless.

    OP, Instead of focusing on bowing your left wrist in transition, you might try concentrating on extending your RIGHT wrist while squeezing your elbows together.

    And don’t forget the counterfall!

  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Members Posts: 5,597 ✭✭

    @dblinden said:
    I think one barrier is tension in right (trail) hand at the top. Want to know if there are other factors that could interfere.
    Educated hands would definitely be a good thing. Although I managed to obtain a PhD, my hands have never passed the third grade

    Ha. Me,too, re hands. I stretch r hand (extension) some.

    The trick is - these new moves are pretty easy in slow motion, but when you turn up speed/stress,
    one tends to revert.

    But what I see is long term training works to solve this. I haven’t found any shortcuts.

    The one thing I have found is I have an aversion to some new feels that work. I have to intentionally recall them, time after time after time. They are so contradictory to what I had for decades, I guess, and/or they feel uncomfortable. But even they improve over time.

    One of these days I’m gonna post a before and after - 5 years . Huge difference. None of it happened overnight.

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  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 458 ✭✭

    Rather than focussing on my wrist movement, what works for me is just closing the clubface in the downswing. I often do so with my right thumb and forefinger either very loose or even off the grip.

  • DinosaurDinosaur Members Posts: 1,986 ✭✭

    try not confuse wrist **** with wrist hinge. Or...marry the two correctly

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    che desideri...."
    Go with what you know!
  • Torque needs something to work against. The motorcycle move works against the shoulder joint. The problem is your body is turning when you do it. A turning body with motorcycle move will throw your arm perpendicular to your hand velocity vector and opposite of your pivot path.

    So it’s a sequence issue usually screwed up by a late reach.
    Intentional handle action needs a different sequence to minimize this.
    I personally don’t want that. I want to wail away and not worry about it.

  • Timbo929Timbo929 Posts: 393 ✭✭

    Op, I trained this not so long ago.

    Bending the wrist to the bowed position was just too hard for me. Since it was so hard to do, tension would be waiting for me at the top of the swing because I knew I had to forcefully jerk my wrist bowed. like when you shoot a rifle for the 2nd time, you flex your right hand, arm, and shoulder anticipating the recoil which causes you to miss your target.

    For me:

    I use my fingers or finger tips in the left hand to causes my left wrist to bow. From the Top of the swing, I point both my index and middle finger in the left hand down to the ground as my first move down, then squat. Rest is automatic.

    also, I felt my forearm was too weak to do this move so I do wrist curls which makes this move a lot easier (X10).

  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,291 ✭✭

    Just a note. Bowing is not the goal. Flexing is to close the face. Depending on the grip you might not reach a bowed position.
    And unhinging (ulnar deviation) supports the flexing, so when you add UD the flexing becomes easier (why you don't want to hold the lag which actually promotes being extended/cupped and a trail shoulder internal rotation release). The flexing can be done many times, during the end of the backswing, transition, or even as late as between p5-p6 (and I think even some guys wait until later like Rory Sabbatini, but that's unusual). It can be smooth and steady, I like to think knuckles down as an intent.
    Tyler has noted that a general range is 20-30 degrees more flexed when compared to setup.

  • dblindendblinden Members Posts: 101 ✭✭
    edited Mar 24, 2019 1:16pm #12

    GLK said: __And unhinging (ulnar deviation) supports the flexing, so when you add UD the flexing becomes easier __

    As in so many forum posts, I didn't go into too much detail for sake of brevity. I agree with above and do try to combine ulnar deviation with wrist flexion. That's when things go good. I find I have to start at transition or I don't have time. Stuff happens so fast, however, and I don't sequence well or omit steps altogether. Also, I can manage to have UD with a cupped wrist and then I get very steep. I try to slow down to swing easy and have time to sequence better to have UD and flexion, but have a hard time doing this as well. I just feel even more tension for some reason.

  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,291 ✭✭
    edited Mar 24, 2019 1:28pm #13

    Don't know your swing, but lots of things in the backswing/transition can work against flexing - steepening versus shallowing comes quickly to mind - steepening the shaft via rotating the arms to the left promotes extending the wrists so your body needs to do double duty so to speak to. What I'm saying is there could be things in your backswing/transition that you need to address to allow flexing to be easier accomplished. Like a lot of things in the swing, changes need to be made in pairs - this might be one for you?

    When I first consciously worked on motorcycle, I had already worked in shallowing but my brain still wanted to release via my old right shoulder internal rotation and UDing late versus keeping the right shoulder in external and supinating both forearms etc - so what happened was I would hit hooks off the planet (start down the line and then . . . ) - thus my training single arms with a focus on the trail arm action and better pressure move in transition.

  • phillyspecialphillyspecial Members Posts: 489 ✭✭

    This move gets me steep if Im not careful. If I my intent is towards the ball to get that flat wrist impact position, its steep. If I focus on doing it "behind me" as I start transition, its shallow. But the prior can produce better strikes for worse players, giving positive feedback when it is still a steep move. I have no idea what Im talking about, but just my experience.

  • DFinchDFinch Members Posts: 1,355 ✭✭

    One risk of consciously trying to make this move is it creeps earlier and earlier into your backswing, resulting in snapping the clubhead inside and behind you. Try not "setting" your wrists at all. Take the club back on plane, flatten the left wrist (with a left hand or right hand feel, whichever works for you) and rotate through the ball. Try to avoid radial (hinging up) and stay in ulner or neutral.

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  • dblindendblinden Members Posts: 101 ✭✭
    edited Mar 25, 2019 11:05am #16

    glk said: When I first consciously worked on motorcycle, I had already worked in shallowing but my brain still wanted to release via my old right shoulder internal rotation and UDing late versus keeping the right shoulder in external ...

    Good comment above: When things don't go well, I do think there is too much internal rotation of my right shoulder. When all's good, this shoulder movement feels delayed.

    So far, potential barriers might include: 1.) Right hand tension, 2.) Internal rotation of right shoulder, 3.) Inadequate timing/sequencing (rushing). Others?

    Post edited by dblinden on
  • moehoganmoehogan Members Posts: 1,025 ✭✭

    Lots of different ways to skin this cat but for me the bowed left wrist is a vapor trail. It’s much easier for me to control my dominant right arm/hand/wrist than the left ... just like the fella quoted below alludes to:

    “When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it's always the right hand I gesture with. That's because golf is a right-handed game [for right-handers], not a left-handed game as some people believe. Hogan was emphatic about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.”

    • Ken Venturi
  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,094 ✭✭
    edited Mar 26, 2019 6:24am #18

    Nevermind

  • dblindendblinden Members Posts: 101 ✭✭
    edited Mar 26, 2019 7:16pm #19

    moehogan said: Lots of different ways to skin this cat but for me the bowed left wrist is a vapor trail.

    In retrospect, I shouldn't have said 'bowing the left wrist'. How about, 'having a flat left wrist at impact' results in good contact. I was trying to convey the idea that, for me, starting clockwise rotation of the golf shaft at transition allows me to achieve this. Just wondering why it is so challenging to do this consistently, both on the range and on the course. Played yesterday and tried to make this a goal for each shot. The times it felt most exaggerated in transition resulted in best contact. I scored really well for me at two over for the round, but I would say I was maybe 70% successful in doing this move. Usually, about 25-30% successful. I don't understand why it can't be done every time.

    Post edited by dblinden on
  • moehoganmoehogan Members Posts: 1,025 ✭✭

    @dblinden said:
    moehogan said: Lots of different ways to skin this cat but for me the bowed left wrist is a vapor trail.

    In retrospect, I shouldn't have said 'bowing the left wrist'. How about, 'having a flat left wrist at impact' results in good contact. I was trying to convey the idea that, for me, starting clockwise rotation of the golf shaft at transition allows me to achieve this. Just wondering why it is so challenging to do this consistently, both on the range and on the course. Played yesterday and tried to make this a goal for each shot. The times it felt most exaggerated in transition resulted in best contact. I scored really well for me at two over for the round, but I would say I was maybe 70% successful in doing this move. Usually, about 25-30% successful. I don't understand why it can't be done every time.

    My focus is turning the entire right ARM clockwise in transition while bending (extending) the right wrist. That torque works against the pivot and the left arm turning counter clockwise during the DS and through impact. Flat or bowed left wrist and bent right arm through impact are the results, but not intentions. The elbow squeeze can be an effective way to create these two opposing forces.

    I use the grip pressure points in 5L, especially the two middle fingers of the right hand to motivate the right arm CW action ... it’s an opposite move to OTT and the most counter intuitive part of the process. It makes you trust the DS pivot and the tumble ... just my way to make sure the club moves in space how it needs to!

  • MoeHogans post above was an example of a cancelling move to eliminate Torque Error. He offset the Coriolis effect that happens in the shoulder when you pivot and reach, especially with a golf club.

    Not only does it control the Torque effect on neighboring joints, it helps to ensure your hand path is accurate.

  • hurley999shurley999s Members Posts: 134 ✭✭

    @moehogan said:
    My focus is turning the entire right ARM clockwise in transition while bending (extending) the right wrist. That torque works against the pivot and the left arm turning counter clockwise during the DS and through impact. Flat or bowed left wrist and bent right arm through impact are the results, but not intentions. The elbow squeeze can be an effective way to create these two opposing forces.

    I use the grip pressure points in 5L, especially the two middle fingers of the right hand to motivate the right arm CW action ... it’s an opposite move to OTT and the most counter intuitive part of the process. It makes you trust the DS pivot and the tumble ... just my way to make sure the club moves in space how it needs to!

    >

    Excellent description, Moe. One of my poor ingrained habits was to do basically the opposite of this and I would end up steep and flipping. Still working on it, but acutely aware now so what you’ve described with CW movement of right arm really makes sense to me in terms of shallowing.

    You mentioned that CW torque of the right arm in transition works against the pivot and CCW movement of the left arm in DS. My question for you is, I can envision this CW right arm movement in transition, but when you start down, does the CCW movement of the left “take over” or do you feel like it’s opposing forces at the same time (basically keeping the CW right arm feel in the DS as well)? I know feel is different for everyone but before I’m left to my own devices and drive myself mad at the range with sequencing new feels, I’d like to understand this more.

  • moehoganmoehogan Members Posts: 1,025 ✭✭
    edited Mar 26, 2019 3:45pm #23

    @hurley999s said:

    @moehogan said:
    My focus is turning the entire right ARM clockwise in transition while bending (extending) the right wrist. That torque works against the pivot and the left arm turning counter clockwise during the DS and through impact. Flat or bowed left wrist and bent right arm through impact are the results, but not intentions. The elbow squeeze can be an effective way to create these two opposing forces.

    I use the grip pressure points in 5L, especially the two middle fingers of the right hand to motivate the right arm CW action ... it’s an opposite move to OTT and the most counter intuitive part of the process. It makes you trust the DS pivot and the tumble ... just my way to make sure the club moves in space how it needs to!

    >

    Excellent description, Moe. One of my poor ingrained habits was to do basically the opposite of this and I would end up steep and flipping. Still working on it, but acutely aware now so what you’ve described with CW movement of right arm really makes sense to me in terms of shallowing.

    You mentioned that CW torque of the right arm in transition works against the pivot and CCW movement of the left arm in DS. My question for you is, I can envision this CW right arm movement in transition, but when you start down, does the CCW movement of the left “take over” or do you feel like it’s opposing forces at the same time (basically keeping the CW right arm feel in the DS as well)? I know feel is different for everyone but before I’m left to my own devices and drive myself mad at the range with sequencing new feels, I’d like to understand this more.

    Thanks, Hurley! I do feel the opposing forces continue throughout the DS and through impact. Feel certainly is an individual thing and this helped me get control of the clubface and clubhead path and fix my tendency to hit big hooks and pull/hooks. Playing partners used to kid me about hooking sand wedges off of lies below my feet. Lol.

    So it boils down to calibrating these opposing forces or torques through a little experimentation on the range to find the stock shot you're after. Again, for me, intense study of Hogan and using the 5L grip pressures to motivate the process was the key. Never have to think about it now as it's so ingrained in my swing DNA. Changing the amount of pressure in the individual fingers can help achieve different shot shapes ... but that's another discussion!

  • This is the answer to the OP, from an earlier post- Torque needs something to work against. The motorcycle move works against the shoulder joint. The problem is your body is turning when you do it. A turning body with motorcycle move will throw your arm perpendicular to your hand velocity vector and opposite of your pivot path.

    The torque from hand move works directly back into the shoulder, that's the law of the torque. So if the reach is at all late, you will be inconsistent.
    One solution is what MoeHogan said. Another is to not delay the reach.
    Those are the two best approaches to be more consistent, if you want that type of torque.

  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members Posts: 5,433 ✭✭

    It's important to remember that making intentional motions during the golf swing will ALWAYS be inconsistent until it becomes a natural motion. As suggested, work on the move in slow motion before going full out.
    BT

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  • SheriffBoothSheriffBooth Marshals, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 4,410 mod

    Discussion's been cleaned up. Please stay on topic. Don't run into the weeds regarding your particular swing theories or thoughts on physics.

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  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Members Posts: 5,597 ✭✭

    @Ri_Redneck said:
    It's important to remember that making intentional motions during the golf swing will ALWAYS be inconsistent until it becomes a natural motion. As suggested, work on the move in slow motion before going full out.
    BT

    I have learned two core things about actually changing a golf swing. First, you measure progress by seeing the new move happening 1/10 then 3/10 then 5/10 and so on. Second, slow motion swings are critical. I spent more than half my practice hitting 100 yard 7 irons. This lets me get more and more trusting of the new feels so that they start to replace the ‘2nd nature’ of my previous motion. I think especially for mature adults who are undoing well ingrained moves this might be a drill that never entirely goes away.

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  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Members Posts: 5,597 ✭✭

    @SheriffBooth said:
    Discussion's been cleaned up. Please stay on topic. Don't run into the weeds regarding your particular swing theories or thoughts on physics.

    Thx

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  • hurley999shurley999s Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    edited Mar 28, 2019 4:45pm #29

    @Frozen Divots said:
    One solution is what MoeHogan said. Another is to not delay the reach.
    Those are the two best approaches to be more consistent, if you want that type of torque.

    @Frozen Divots

    Can you explain a bit more “not delay the reach”? I was able to visualize what Moe referenced earlier, but I’m not clear on what the reach itself is (ie, what arm, when?) and I’d like to understand this a bit better. Thanks!

    Post edited by hurley999s on
  • @hurley999s said:

    @Frozen Divots said:
    One solution is what MoeHogan said. Another is to not delay the reach.
    Those are the two best approaches to be more consistent, if you want that type of torque.

    @Frozen Divots

    Can you explain a bit more “not delay the reach”? I was able to visualize what Moe referenced earlier, but I’m not clear on what the reach itself is (ie, what arm, when?) and I’d like to understand this a bit better. Thanks!

    If you are right handed and your body is working around in any CC manner, you are causing interial and Coriolis torques in your shoulder. These make the right arm accuracy and efficiency in reach suffer. So a late reach or late ‘arm effort’ means that it is happening post torque error in the shoulder.

    You want the arm action earlier before that happens or you need cancelling effects, like MoeHogan says.
    If you turn then try to reach or hit, etc, it’s more difficult.

  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Posts: 809 ✭✭

    @Frozen Divots said:

    @hurley999s said:

    @Frozen Divots said:
    One solution is what MoeHogan said. Another is to not delay the reach.
    Those are the two best approaches to be more consistent, if you want that type of torque.

    @Frozen Divots

    Can you explain a bit more “not delay the reach”? I was able to visualize what Moe referenced earlier, but I’m not clear on what the reach itself is (ie, what arm, when?) and I’d like to understand this a bit better. Thanks!

    If you are right handed and your body is working around in any CC manner, you are causing interial and Coriolis torques in your shoulder. These make the right arm accuracy and efficiency in reach suffer. So a late reach or late ‘arm effort’ means that it is happening post torque error in the shoulder.

    You want the arm action earlier before that happens or you need cancelling effects, like MoeHogan says.
    If you turn then try to reach or hit, etc, it’s more difficult.

    I don't know if you're intentionally making this confusing or not. Are you essentially saying start the "motorcycle move" earlier?

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