I have been looking at a lot of classic swings like Bobby Jones, etc and they have a lot of hip action. Hogan and Nicklaus as well. With a wedge that's a different story. Even Freddy Couple's easy swing has a vigorous hip turn.
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I don't look at the ball and neither should you. Looking at the ball inevitable leads to swinging at the ball which is not what we want. At most I would say I am aware of the ball being in my field of vision, but no more than that.
My address position and alignment insures that when I swing the club in the direction of the target the ball will get in the way. That's why the ball gets hit by the swinging club.
Manny said many times that being focused on hitting the ball caused more bad shots than anything else. That is why he taught beginners the swing without the ball. Just swing the club from over your trail shoulder to over your lead shoulder brushing the turf on the way. The intent remains the same when you put a ball down. He would also teach experienced golfers the same way if he sensed they were hitting at the ball instead of swinging the club.
As I mentioned, that's a great example of why pictures and videos can confuse people. You can't see intent in photos and video, and it's why instruction went off the rails. One could easily confuse what is actually happening. The intent is to swing the club with the arms and hands, and to move the club like you would move an instrument in any other sport. The body plays a supportive role and a braking system, and is simply reacting to that arm motion, not the other way around. It doesn't mean the hips and shoulders don't move, it means they are reacting to what the arms and hands are doing. It's not the hips and shoulders moving the club, and the arms and hands are passive... that's absolutely backwards and incorrect.
Let's take Jack Nicklaus... how many people have heard you need to drive with the legs like he does? That he gets his power from big strong legs? Heard that right? It's totally wrong and some nonsense people made up. Well intended as those folks may be, they have no clue what they are talking about. If you ask Jack what his intent is, it's to swing the club with the arms and hands, and right from the top of the swing as well. He has said he doesn't think about doing anything with the legs at all.
When Tiger destroyed every field in golf in 2000, he thought about swinging nothing but his hands and arms through the ball from the top, and that his lower body didn't even move until the club had already hit the ball. He didn't do that in photos or videos, it looks like he "fires the hips"... but that's not his intent.
So this is where looking at a dynamic motion with neurological intentions compared to static positions in photos and videos can cause all kinds of confusion. It just about destroyed quality golf instruction for many years. Fortunately physics won't go away, so everything old is new again. We make it sound much cooler and more scientific today, and guys have lots of data and science to back things up now... but it's just complying with the laws of physics as was taught by this original concept.
I never said the hips drive the hands. I said that many great golfers use use their hips in their swing, which they do of course.
Everybody is different. I spent a long time trying only to finish my swing per lessons that had and also a lot of time trying to swing exactly as you mention with only and awareness of the ball. Does not work for me and I have dropped my handicap by 4 or 5 strokes by focusing on swinging the clubhead on the 'rail' right through the ball. My best shots occur when I am focused totally on hitting the ball with the swing path that I want to use. This may be 'wrong' per a lot of instruction but it is the way that I play my best golf at the moment especially under pressure. Swing the clubhead through the ball.
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Not sure if the following vid has been discussed before ( GolfWRX search didn't show anything ), but Golfletics discusses some of the swing types of various classic and recent golf champions from the early 1900s to now. Who was shifting, who was armsy, reverse C, rotational. It's a good watch and may give further insight into this part of the discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJsGWk3aILA (13:44 mins long)
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Then there is this:
"It all starts in the lower body"
There are many successful players who focus on the body movements and don't think about their arms at all. For instance lower or mid core players per Wright Balance. There is no one correct way to think about and execute the golf swing.
If it works it isn't wrong. You may be describing the same motion of the club as I. just using different words to do it.
Swinging thru the ball and hitting the ball are 2 very different intentions.
Last I checked, the hips are not part of the hands or arms. They should be reacting to the swinging of the club just like the rest of the body.
1st round of tournament yesterday I shot 81 with 3 doubles & 3 bogies. Primary reason for doubles was all my tee shots with driver through 5 hybrid went right. Most started on or near line but curved right. Some started a little right and went right. In reviewing the common problems the cause could have been a couple things. Due to my broken right thumb my grip pressures were not equal, my wrists were not loose, and I likely had some lateral motion on some swings.
My full swing iron game 8 through wedges was fair. Chipping so so. Putting was less than stellar missing every birdie putt, and a few others from 5‘ - 10’
Hope I can correct them today.
Keep in mind he admitted that if he took just one day of practice off, he would need something like 5 days to figure out the pattern again. Does that sound repeatable or something you should model? It's his amazing story, and the marketing of telling people he has a "secret", that makes people think he's the swing model to follow.
Unless you hit 30 yard hooks, and want to try every gimmick in an attempt to fix ball flight, making what are some classic slicer motions and club fanning to get the ball flight back to straight, he's not the guy imo. Every golf instructor that is knowledgable in kinesthetics has said what Hogan says he's doing and wrote in his book, and what he actually did, are for the most part different.
In the end, whatever works for you. Most golfers that focus on the body, or think the "big muscles move the small muscles", start getting the club off plane, and it's not how you would naturally do any other athletic activity.
Whatever works is whatever works, looks like we agree on that! I am not promoting and particular method I am just pointing out that there are successful teachers and players with a body oriented approach.
I have found that most every teaching pro I have had lessons with or talked with believed that what they were teaching was the one and only correct method for learning the golf swing. Generally unless they have a guru they tend to think highly of themselves and not so highly of many, possibly most other teaching pros.
For myself I learned a lot about the golf swing from pros I had lessons with along with books and videos. LOL I am playing my best golf of my life right now doing it my way though... And I don't give a fff what anyone thinks of my swing mechanics or training methods. LOL I have become my own know it all teacher!
I just watched the video and have to see while I'm sure Malaska is an effective coach his understanding of physics and some parts of the golf swing are flawed. His demonstration of how the hip turns translate into relatively little velocity is completely wrong. First, the rapid hip turn happens before impact to create stored energy in the muscles and ligaments of the body which are then transmitted to the club right before impact. To demonstrate this look at a video of Freddy Couples and Tiger Woods(and many other players like Jamie Sadlowski) whose hips rotate very fast initially but then all but stop when the clubhead impacts the ball.
Yes, everything slows down coming into impact sequentially hips, shoulders, arms, hands. Theoretically maximum clubhead speed would be achieved if the hands stopped at impact. Not possible for a human but it is possible to get a feel for this by swinging a shaft with no head on it with one hand as fast as possible. My last instructor wanted me to keep my hips driving through impact and into the finish but as you mentioned most pros don't do that and it is quite easy to see the hips slowing down by looking at video.
A lot of teachers have a limited knowledge of physics. I am an engineer and have noticed this a lot since I took up the game at the age of 30. This doesn't mean these same teachers can't be effective, only that their theory is incomplete, like most are, including MLDT and Malaska, etc. etc. etc.
Good instructors are not questing for some grand unified theory of the golf swing, they are trying to help people play better. That does no require completeness, it only required that what is taught works.
I have no problem with that one bit.
I am only pointing out shortcomings that I don't believe are helpful to me and others that don't have a complete understanding of the swing either.
@golfpros1 says: "Every golf instructor that is knowledgable in kinesthetics has said what Hogan says he's doing and wrote in his book, and what he actually did, are for the most part different."
This is an interesting statement. I have heard golf pros who claim to understand the physics of the golf swing say that Hogan did exactly what he said he did in his book. Consequently I am very interested in learning what he did that was for the most part different from his what is written in the book. I don't know if there are any references that you could provide? Thanks!
Already posted that video. You can make your own determination if those teachers, like Como and others, are wrong in their statements.
My apologies I had not watched the video. Como does have a Masters of Science degree in Biomechanics which would seem to qualify him as an expert while I don't know what Lucas and Brandel studied in college. Como does tend to agree with whomever he is working with on his show. For instance in the Chuck Cook show he seemed to go along with ideas of the body driven swing though I deleted the show from my DVR and cannot verify. Anyhow if you take a look at Hogan's TOS in the video I posted earlier compared to the illustration on page 73 of 'Five Lessons' it looks like a perfect match. I don't see that 'for the most part different' is a correct statement. Some things yes but nothing major imho. That is not to say that I can swing like Hogan or that average golfers can, I am simply defending his book here. I don't see evidence to completely support your statement but that is my opinion.
I did notice in the TV show with Lucas Wald and Brandel that the swing that Brandel is working on with Lucas appeared to be similar to the upper core swing that Larry Rinker recommends with the exception of the hips leading through impact. The standing up that was mentioned as only good for long drivers is actually what Rinker recommends for upper core players. It is possible that if Brandel is an upper core player he would do better working with Larry Rinker and Dr. Wright as opposed to Wald. LOL I have no idea if that would be true or not it is simply something that came to mind while watching the show.
I keep wondering why some in this thread insist on putting active thoughts into a reactive motion. The hands bring the clubhead in a path over the trail shoulder and then the arms swing the club to the target and the clubhead over the lead shoulder. Everything else reacts to those. If you're thinking about what your hips are doing then you're clouding up the process.
Spot on, I remember when I first tried the method I would end up in the best balanced follow through position I've ever been in and think 'how did I get here?' There were definitely no active thoughts getting me there
Two guys who have gotten it.
I had a great day out on Monday. I would place the clubhead behind the ball as I was looking at the target and would make my entire setup while focused on the target, only looking back toward the ball just prior to swinging. I probably set a personal record for dead straight, well-struck shots. The only time I thought about my hips that day was when I pulled on the golf shorts and thought, "I need to get a little stricter with the diet."
I have come to the conclusion that I cannot do Manny's method completely because my natural instinct to get the club in place over the right shoulder is to turn my lower back too much which causes me pain and numbness due to my back condition. I have found I have to swing around a virtually immobile right leg which means my hands and arms are already loading instead of merely transporting the club back to a predetermined position, hence I can't feel the clubhead.
Nonetheless, Manny's concepts have been very helpful in fine tuning my swing version. Specifically maintaining the arms and hands very flexible initially in the swing and using both during the takeaoff has been very helpful in allowing my hands and arms to stay connected during the swing as one unit. I admit I purposely bring my left forearm across my body to start the swing but this is to ensure my right leg doesn't break down, it is also something I saw Manny show a student do in one of his videos. Also, having the weight more centered as opposed to overly exaggerating loading up my right side at address has been very helpful in assuring both of my legs are resisting as opposed to just the right leg (my swing is based around my feet and legs). I say "more centered" because I still have my right foot back and dig in the inside part of my foot into the ground, plus I turn my head to the right at address which preloads my right side a little.
When I get the swing sequence down it is quite effortless which I believe is because I am using my feet to start the downswing with flexible hands and arms that just follow the lower body's lead. I get pretty good velocity for my age and size. Thanks Manny, see you one day.
You aren't picturing things properly. The path along which the clubhead travels should go over your back shoulder. The entire club doesn't do that. Except for the most flexible people on the planet, most couldn't achieve that range of motion. The swing shouldn't be forcing your body into something that it cannot do and there shouldn't be an resisting. I couldn't tell you if my back leg was mobile or immobile. I honestly don't know. I also know my feet don't start the downswing. How could they? They are the furthest body part from the club that my body is reacting to.
By saying the club I meant the clubhead not my hands. Also, just doing the swing as I understand it hurts without trying to force anything, that's why I have had to learn what to do and not what to do. BTW, I am glad you don't have this problem.
I've had a bad back for much longer than someone my age should have. This swing method is so much easier on my body than golf ever was before I discovered it. If I played more than 2 days in a row in the past then I would be almost crippled but now, not even close.
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