Tilting correctly and handpath

iteach, thanks for posting this. Could you describe the feeling of "more tilt left"? What is it that we should be striving to achieve exactly? The pictures don't give my untrained eye enough information.

good job... did it solve clubface plane WAY too shallow at p2-4 and over-rotated with hips...

Wow that's quite a difference in the before and after data. Nice job!

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1948401' date='Sep 13 2009, 04:09 PM']iteach, thanks for posting this. Could you describe the feeling of "more tilt left"? What is it that we should be striving to achieve exactly? The pictures don't give my untrained eye enough information.[/quote]
she was literally told, "hands in and left shoulder down". From there we did some cleanup work but that thought works well for most. The more the hands move in the easier it is to get the left shoulder down which stops the arms from lifting at the top.

[quote name='Siteseer2' post='1948403' date='Sep 13 2009, 04:14 PM']good job... did it solve clubface plane WAY too shallow at p2-4 and over-rotated with hips...[/quote]
Yea hands went out club went in clubshaft way off plane. Club is now on plane from P1 to P3.5 and if anything sweetspot slightly above plane at P4. Swing is a little shorter due to turning more sooner and club feeling lighter due to it being more on plane.

RGMmiller.... this may answer some of your questions... notice elbow locations and the changing of the tilts.

Nice work iteach. make sure she keeps that ball in her central vision to avoid possibly becoming underplane and too much cf.

[quote name='moradman' post='1948438' date='Sep 13 2009, 04:44 PM']RGMmiller.... this may answer some of your questions... notice elbow locations and the changing of the tilts.

Nice work iteach. make sure she keeps that ball in her central vision to avoid possibly becoming underplane and too much cf.[/quote]
Yea working on that but right now I was more concerned with her getting the ball off the ground and being able to hit a draw.

Here is someone who had a hand path that was almost parallel to the baseline in the backswing. This would go the shortest possible distance and make it the hardest to hit a draw. After swing shows a huge change in handpath. Also loaded PA#3 more in the backswing to get the club more on plane and not as steep.
[attachment=465641:hands.jpeg]

Now, THAT's TRANSFORMATIONAL for that player... goodbye pull cut, hello draw...

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1948432' date='Sep 13 2009, 03:37 PM']she was literally told, "hands in and left shoulder down". From there we did some cleanup work but that thought works well for most. The more the hands move in the easier it is to get the left shoulder down which stops the arms from lifting at the top.[/quote]
Is there any danger of getting the hands too far behind you with this move? This thread is very timely for me as it corresponds to something I've recently found and have been working on in my own swing. (A bigger bend from my hips which seems to encourage more tilt in my own swing)

[quote name='stevestrike' post='1948612' date='Sep 13 2009, 06:49 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1948432' date='Sep 13 2009, 03:37 PM']she was literally told, "hands in and left shoulder down". From there we did some cleanup work but that thought works well for most. The more the hands move in the easier it is to get the left shoulder down which stops the arms from lifting at the top.[/quote]
Is there any danger of getting the hands too far behind you with this move? This thread is very timely for me as it corresponds to something I've recently found and have been working on in my own swing. (A bigger bend from my hips which seems to encourage more tilt in my own swing)
[/quote]
Your hands can get too low and too behind you but the miss there would be pushes and over draws. I would say I have taught very few people who have a handpath that is too far inside(5% maybe).

Very helpful, thanks iteach. Your contributions and instruction are continually appreciated here.

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1948619' date='Sep 13 2009, 03:53 PM'][quote name='stevestrike' post='1948612' date='Sep 13 2009, 06:49 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1948432' date='Sep 13 2009, 03:37 PM']she was literally told, "hands in and left shoulder down". From there we did some cleanup work but that thought works well for most. The more the hands move in the easier it is to get the left shoulder down which stops the arms from lifting at the top.[/quote]
Is there any danger of getting the hands too far behind you with this move? This thread is very timely for me as it corresponds to something I've recently found and have been working on in my own swing. (A bigger bend from my hips which seems to encourage more tilt in my own swing)
[/quote]
Your hands can get too low and too behind you but the miss there would be pushes and over draws. I would say I have taught very few people who have a handpath that is too far inside(5% maybe).
[/quote]

what happens though if hands go inside and club head goes inside and stays very close to the horizontal plane?

iTeach, you are an amazing teacher. I can't tell you how much I enjoy the before and after pictures of your students. You are a tremendous asset to our profession!

Kevin

she was literally told, "hands in and left shoulder down". From there we did some cleanup work but that thought works well for most. The more the hands move in the easier it is to get the left shoulder down which stops the arms from lifting at the top.

Is there any danger of getting the hands too far behind you with this move? This thread is very timely for me as it corresponds to something I've recently found and have been working on in my own swing. (A bigger bend from my hips which seems to encourage more tilt in my own swing)

Your hands can get too low and too behind you but the miss there would be pushes and over draws. I would say I have taught very few people who have a handpath that is too far inside(5% maybe).

 

what happens though if hands go inside and club head goes inside and stays very close to the horizontal plane?

Hands going in is fine if the club goes to far in you have too much forearm rotation and or not enough cocking of the wrist. I'd most likely guess too much forearm rotation though. Below shows same handpath but one is off plane due to too much forearm rotation too soon.

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1949068' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:02 PM']iTeach, you are an amazing teacher. I can't tell you how much I enjoy the before and after pictures of your students. You are a tremendous asset to our profession!

Kevin[/quote]

Thanks Kev. I figured I should actually post some here. I couldn't just send you all of them. I still think you have about 500x the before and after photos and videos I've posted here haha. Just trying to get people good information.

NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?

[quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.

I was pulling a pretty cool trick at the range, I am so far to the inside right now...I set up dead open, then I opened my 5 iron like a lob wedge and hit several high draws right at the target, probably had it open forty degrees. I bet I could have taken wagers from people that I could draw it from that setup...can I take that to the course

Not to be a doob but are the changes subtle? I can see the change in the 2nd set of photos. I am having the issue of the gentleman in the 2nd set of pictures I think. I think my handpath (which is the biggest mystery of the golf swing to me) is parallel like his. I've lost distance and the golf swing right now feels very heavy and hard.

[quote name='20something' post='1949476' date='Sep 14 2009, 09:56 AM']Not to be a doob but are the changes subtle? I can see the change in the 2nd set of photos. I am having the issue of the gentleman in the 2nd set of pictures I think. I think my handpath (which is the biggest mystery of the golf swing to me) is parallel like his. I've lost distance and the golf swing right now feels very heavy and hard.[/quote]
The more in the hands go the more angular momentum you have. In the first set of pictures the shoulder tilt went from 18º all the way to 33º which is a huge difference. Before her shoulders where almost level with the ground and now the left shoulder is a lot more down. Hands are also much deeper in the after photos.

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949145' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:42 PM'][quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.
[/quote]

Teach,

Can too much wrist hinge in the BS cause an early release of PA#2 - sort of a bounce back effect in transition? I struggle with this and the subsequent early release. Any suggestions? Thanks!

MH

[quote name='moehogan' post='1949506' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:12 AM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949145' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:42 PM'][quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.
[/quote]

Teach,

Can too much wrist hinge in the BS cause an early release of PA#2 - sort of a bounce back effect in transition? I struggle with this and the subsequent early release. Any suggestions? Thanks!

MH
[/quote]

Not necessarily. There are more than likely other issues. Elbow's over flexing, weight not far enough forward, hips not linear enough, PA1&4 slow, loss of PP2.

(my apologies for jumping in)

[quote name='moehogan' post='1949506' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:12 AM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949145' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:42 PM'][quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.
[/quote]

Teach,

Can too much wrist hinge in the BS cause an early release of PA#2 - sort of a bounce back effect in transition? I struggle with this and the subsequent early release. Any suggestions? Thanks!

MH
[/quote]
Usually a function of improper sequencing or other breakdowns. I'd like to see a slight loading of PA#2 in transition, wouldn't quite call it float loading lets say go from 80º to 70º. Obviously the later the set the easier this is. That is why I prefer a more incremental hinging of the wrist.

[quote name='moradman' post='1949513' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:17 AM'][quote name='moehogan' post='1949506' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:12 AM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949145' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:42 PM'][quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.
[/quote]

Teach,

Can too much wrist hinge in the BS cause an early release of PA#2 - sort of a bounce back effect in transition? I struggle with this and the subsequent early release. Any suggestions? Thanks!

MH
[/quote]

Not necessarily. There are more than likely other issues. Elbow's over flexing, weight not far enough forward, hips not linear enough, PA1&4 slow, loss of PP2.

(my apologies for jumping in)
[/quote]
haha no problem. pretty much just what I said.

Not just an issue for beginners and poorer players. This a guy who is a VERY good golf but could only fade the ball and wanted to be able to work it both ways. Handpath wasn't in enough causing him to lift and be steep and swing a little across the ball. Much shallower swing now and is able to draw the ball more comfortable than he was able to fade it before. He won his last tournament with a 67 at ChampionsGate.
[attachment=465904:justin.jpeg]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949521' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:24 AM']Not just an issue for beginners and poorer players. This a guy who is a VERY good golf but could only fade the ball and wanted to be able to work it both ways. Handpath wasn't in enough causing him to lift and be steep and swing a little across the ball. Much shallower swing now and is able to draw the ball more comfortable than he was able to fade it before. He won his last tournament with a 67 at ChampionsGate.
[attachment=465904:justin.jpeg][/quote]

Nice work !

Also better extensor action at P3 and more on-plane (lower) right forearm at about P5.25

I think he'll win his next 5 tournaments with those improvements !

The pictures above are me in a nutshell, thank god I am starting to look more like the lower set.

What's crazy... if you look at the top set, 1st picture, you would think that's a great takeaway. But just like you said, handpath wasn't IN enough. He's got enough ability to correct coming down and play good golf, but again, limits the shotmaking.

Also want to go back to the 1st set of picture (the woman). Look at the launch monitor stats. Look at the difference in smash factor. People talk about a draw isn't LONGER than a fade. It's not that a draw is longer than a fade, it's the inside approach that produced better contact which the result is a longer shot (and most of the time a draw).

Nice work Teach!

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1949548' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:43 AM']The pictures above are me in a nutshell, thank god I am starting to look more like the lower set.

What's crazy... if you look at the top set, 1st picture, you would think that's a great takeaway. But just like you said, handpath wasn't IN enough. He's got enough ability to correct coming down and play good golf, but again, limits the shotmaking.

Also want to go back to the 1st set of picture (the woman). Look at the launch monitor stats. Look at the difference in smash factor. People talk about a draw isn't LONGER than a fade. It's not that a draw is longer than a fade, it's the inside approach that produced better contact which the result is a longer shot (and most of the time a draw).

Nice work Teach![/quote]
Yep went from heeling everything to hitting it dead center. What I think most people forget is that because the ball is struck BEFORE low point all swings should be inside out. Club head travels down out and forward until low point. This doesn't mean they are swinging to right field just that they are hitting the ball on the backside of the circle.

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949518' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:20 AM'][quote name='moradman' post='1949513' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:17 AM'][quote name='moehogan' post='1949506' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:12 AM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1949145' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:42 PM'][quote name='swanry30' post='1949118' date='Sep 13 2009, 11:25 PM']NICE work. what is your theory on wrist set? early/late? or does it make a difference. HITTER vs. SWINGER. for a hitter what type of set should take place?[/quote]
I use and teach an incremental wrist hinge for most people, not early or late just gradual. There are always exceptions. Traditional hitting would be less wrist hinge.
[/quote]

Teach,

Can too much wrist hinge in the BS cause an early release of PA#2 - sort of a bounce back effect in transition? I struggle with this and the subsequent early release. Any suggestions? Thanks!

MH
[/quote]

Not necessarily. There are more than likely other issues. Elbow's over flexing, weight not far enough forward, hips not linear enough, PA1&4 slow, loss of PP2.

(my apologies for jumping in)
[/quote]
haha no problem. pretty much just what I said.
[/quote]
Thanks, Teach and MM. Maybe I can get some video up for you to look at.

Cheers,

MH