Tilting correctly and handpath

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='sfong33' post='1968496' date='Sep 23 2009, 05:23 PM']iteach,

I've been following this thread for the past few days and finally got a chance to view the Youtube video that you referenced in post #60 for the player who went through the big change from slice to draw in 15 minutes. Great work.

I was really struck by the player's before swing, which pretty much mirrors my own. I have the same tendency to lift (by lifting, I mean it looks like I am coming up out of my posture near the top of the backswing) on the backswing and on the downswing lunging with my upper body in order to "make up" for the lifting on the backswing. I noticed on the "after" swing that this undesirable and unsightly move was pretty much eliminated. Does the level shoulder turn and having your arms relatively in front of you on the backswing cause this tendency to lift up? I always thought it was due to a lack of flexibility and core strength (there is a topic called early extension in this same forum which is what I based my conclusion on). I have been trying to do a lot of stretching and core workouts and I will continue to do them regardless of whether or not these weaknesses are the cause of my problem, but it would be comforting to know that I am capable of correcting this lifting up/lunging of the torso with your 2 suggestions discussed in this thread.

So, what I am basically asking is: does the level turn and having the arms relatively in front of you cause the lifting up on the BS and the compensating lunge on the DS? Thanks![/quote]
I have yet to this day seen many people whom cant get the radius of the circle back enough to hit the ball far. However that being said the issue would lay in the extending of the finish with the spine more than the rate of rotations in the dowswing. having a level shoulder turn would really be staying in flexion longer with the left shoulder movng the most to the right on the backswing ( being a right handed player). In doing so the head and center of the shoulders would try and re center on the downswing. Note the pictures i have posted on this.
Dont take my statement wrong, there are more good players whom do get to the right if your looking at the tour range. . The issue still is, is that the best way to hit the ball and does it lead to more out of your golf game?
David Toms is very much the type of pivot your talking about, more so than lets say Sean or Charlie. I would say David's move would take some timing and yes is a good swing, but yes in his move your going to need to work on flexability( esp. shoulders)

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='caryk' post='1968934' date='Sep 24 2009, 12:04 AM']iteach, great thread!!! Really enjoying your comments and the response of others.

Regarding the "hands in" concept, what affect does it have on ball flight besides favoring a draw? Is the resulting trajectory slightly higher or alot higher? Just curious. Thanks again![/quote]
Hands/arms in 20º (both backswing and downswing) would yield a slight draw and I'd say a mid trajectory.

[12 piece bucket]

[quote name='Siteseer2' post='1968855' date='Sep 23 2009, 11:14 PM'][quote name='12 piece bucket' post='1968852' date='Sep 23 2009, 11:12 PM'][quote name='Siteseer2' post='1968846' date='Sep 23 2009, 11:07 PM'][quote name='eightiron' post='1968816' date='Sep 23 2009, 10:53 PM'][quote name='Siteseer2' post='1968748' date='Sep 23 2009, 09:23 PM'][quote name='lake' post='1968691' date='Sep 23 2009, 09:56 PM']Charlie starts to turn #3 at the six second mark... starts to roll #3 at the ten second mark for a long slow closing rate through impact.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlCvFU6V-3o&feature=channel_page"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlCvFU6V-3o...re=channel_page[/url][/quote]


[size=3][b]BEGIN with:[/b][/size]
The Three Basic Wrist Motions Are Classified As;

Horizontal - FLAT --- BENT --- ARCHED --- (CLUB SHAFT) == GRIP MOTION

Perpendicular- LEVEL --- C@ck--- UNCOCK --- (CLUB HEAD) == WRIST MOTION

Rotational - VERTICAL --- TURN --- ROLL --- (CLUBFACE) == HAND MOTION

[size=3][b]AND THEN:[/b][/size]

The Classic Adjusted Address Alignments are (Bent Left Wrist and Flat Right Wrist) and this favors the Swinger's Centrifugal swing back and then its Drag Loading (10-19-C) with its Longitudinal Clubshaft PULL through Impact. This is an out and out PULL, striving to accelerate the clubshaft lengthwise. Start the club down as though it were being drawn from a quiver like an arrow feathered end first.

Both 'Hitter's' and 'Swinger's' can start from the Impact Fix Wrist Condition (Flat Left Wrist and Bent Right Wrist) but these Alignments do favour the Hitter's muscular 'Carry Back' Motion and Drive Loading (10-19-A) with Radial Clubshaft PUSH through Impact. This is an "Axe handle" technique of the Hitter, an out and out Right Arm Thrust against the Clubhead Lag. Radial Clubshaft PUSH is always Right Arm Thrust.

With both 'Swinging' and 'Hitting', the Bent Left Wrist in Adjusted Address (8-3) becomes Flat in Start-Up (8-4) by using 'Extensor Action' (6-B-1-D). Homer Kelley strongly recoomended using Pressure Point #3 for Extensor Action for the Swinger. Refer to 10-19-0, 3rd paragraph concerning the Swinger and the use of Extensor Action.

The Left Wrist moves to 'Uncocked' after Impact and this is Full Extension of the Primary Lever Assembly with the Left Arm and Clubshaft in a straight line. This therefore results in a Zero #3 Accumulator (7-18) and an 'In Line' Left Arm Flying Wedge (6-B-3-0-1 Page 74). The Right Wrist remains in its Bent and Level Condition during this Full Extension. Therefore the On Plane Right Forearm Flying Wedge (6-B-3-0-1) remains unchanged and in its Precision 90 Degree relationship with the Left Arm Flying Wedge. Read The Golfing Machine Book by Homer Kelley (6-B-3-0-1) in regards to the Flying Wedges as this is Precision.

[b]The Right Wrist must NEVER move from Level to Uncocked through Impact as the Right Wrist only Bent Back throughout the Backstroke and Downstroke so as it never Cocked it can not and should not Uncock[/b].

The Left Wrist is not Level when the Hand is in the 'Karate Chop' position and the middle finger runs up the Forearm. It is Cocked. The Left Wrist is in a Level Condition when the wrist bone and the edge of the hand to the first knuckle of the first finger) form a straight line. This puts the finger in a slightly downward pointing position. Refer to 4-B-1 and its accompanying text.

With the Flat Left Wrist Level at Impact, this will assure that the Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Clubshaft) will not achieve Full Extension until after Impact.

SEE: The Golfing Machine Book Chapter 4 for all Individual Wrist Postions. Remember that the key to contolling the club is by Educated Hands. The Hands are the main lines of communication between the body and the Clubhead.

GOT IT....
[/quote]

How about this bloke / level or uncocking right wrist
[/quote]
Eight... the right wrist NEVER uncocks...it flexes...
Ideally, the Right Wrist is never Cocked (Perpendicular Motion) during the Backstroke - so it cannot be Uncocked during the Downstroke. Instead, it is only Bent (Horizontal Motion) -- and that Bent condition is maintained through Impact and for as long as possible into the Follow-Through. There is no Flattening through Impact (also a Horizontal Motion) because [b]any Flattening of the Right Wrist becomes Left Wrist Bend...[/b]

The Uncocking is #2 and is a left wrist action

#3 is the ANGLE of the clubshaft and left arm at adress... you want to return to impact at the SAME angle-- not higher, not lower

The left wrist uncocking provides the 'down' and the pivot provides the 'out'. Uncock then roll. The 'roll' is imparted by the pivot. The combination of those two forces = 'on plane' sweet spot

But then you KNEW that...

[/quote]

Better not let Vijay in on that one . . .
[/quote]
He doesn't get high marks for his RELEASE motion... though he is a great PLAYER...

[/quote]


Agree to a point . . . but do you think he satisfies the imperatives?

[12 piece bucket]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' post='1969024' date='Sep 24 2009, 01:36 AM'][quote name='sfong33' post='1968496' date='Sep 23 2009, 05:23 PM']iteach,

I've been following this thread for the past few days and finally got a chance to view the Youtube video that you referenced in post #60 for the player who went through the big change from slice to draw in 15 minutes. Great work.

I was really struck by the player's before swing, which pretty much mirrors my own. I have the same tendency to lift (by lifting, I mean it looks like I am coming up out of my posture near the top of the backswing) on the backswing and on the downswing lunging with my upper body in order to "make up" for the lifting on the backswing. I noticed on the "after" swing that this undesirable and unsightly move was pretty much eliminated. Does the level shoulder turn and having your arms relatively in front of you on the backswing cause this tendency to lift up? I always thought it was due to a lack of flexibility and core strength (there is a topic called early extension in this same forum which is what I based my conclusion on). I have been trying to do a lot of stretching and core workouts and I will continue to do them regardless of whether or not these weaknesses are the cause of my problem, but it would be comforting to know that I am capable of correcting this lifting up/lunging of the torso with your 2 suggestions discussed in this thread.

So, what I am basically asking is: does the level turn and having the arms relatively in front of you cause the lifting up on the BS and the compensating lunge on the DS? Thanks![/quote]
I have yet to this day seen many people whom cant get the radius of the circle back enough to hit the ball far. However that being said the issue would lay in the extending of the finish with the spine more than the rate of rotations in the dowswing. having a level shoulder turn would really be staying in flexion longer with the left shoulder movng the most to the right on the backswing ( being a right handed player). In doing so the head and center of the shoulders would try and re center on the downswing. Note the pictures i have posted on this.
Dont take my statement wrong, there are more good players whom do get to the right if your looking at the tour range. . The issue still is, is that the best way to hit the ball and does it lead to more out of your golf game?
David Toms is very much the type of pivot your talking about, more so than lets say Sean or Charlie. I would say David's move would take some timing and yes is a good swing, but yes in his move your going to need to work on flexability( esp. shoulders)
[/quote]

Nice post Tiltgigolo . . .

[wldchld22]

Iteach,

In the september issue of golf digest, vol 60 no. 9 with arnie on the cover, the cover claims to have a slice cure. >NEW STUDY REVEALS ONE KEY MOVE

The article is found on 98 and basically shows the principles you are stating here. Or am I wrong? I'm a novice, but a tennis instructor so I appreciate proper techniques of teaching. It basically shows how a pro will turn flatter and the difference they show between pro and slicer looks identical to your before and after shots.

a basic video and drill about this article can be found here...

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/video/2009/09/02tipsplussteveatherton"]http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/vide...ussteveatherton[/url]

The biggest change i see is in the turn. In his first tip he states "[b][/b]The first move back should not be using hands to lift and rotate the club away from the ball. Instead, you should feel that the club moves off the ball in response to the turning of your shoulders and upper body. Ideally, you want your left shoulder turned behind the ball when you reach thee top. Here's a checkpoint: Pay attention to the buttons of your shirt. Make them point past your right toe by the time the club is parallel to the ground, and you'll haven an excellent start to your backswing." Is this correct?

[DukeNasty]

[quote name='wldchld22' post='1969796' date='Sep 24 2009, 02:44 PM']Iteach,

In the september issue of golf digest, vol 60 no. 9 with arnie on the cover, the cover claims to have a slice cure. >NEW STUDY REVEALS ONE KEY MOVE

The article is found on 98 and basically shows the principles you are stating here. Or am I wrong? I'm a novice, but a tennis instructor so I appreciate proper techniques of teaching. It basically shows how a pro will turn flatter and the difference they show between pro and slicer looks identical to your before and after shots.

a basic video and drill about this article can be found here...

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/video/2009/09/02tipsplussteveatherton"]http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/vide...ussteveatherton[/url]

The biggest change i see is in the turn. In his first tip he states "[b][/b]The first move back should not be using hands to lift and rotate the club away from the ball. Instead, you should feel that the club moves off the ball in response to the turning of your shoulders and upper body. Ideally, you want your left shoulder turned behind the ball when you reach thee top. Here's a checkpoint: Pay attention to the buttons of your shirt. Make them point past your right toe by the time the club is parallel to the ground, and you'll haven an excellent start to your backswing." Is this correct?[/quote]


Does this drill teach a crossover release? That's what it looks like it teaches if you ask me and that is what I try to avoid in my swing at all costs. However, releasing a club like this can produce a draw if that is what you are looking for, but it can be uncontrollable as well if the pivot stalls. Would love to get other viewpoints though.

In one S&T video with Paul Gorman and Mike Bennett, they are telling you to do the exact opposite of the drill above though.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/PGormanator#play/uploads/18/7elui5CiNxU"]http://www.youtube.com/user/PGormanator#pl.../18/7elui5CiNxU[/url]

E.

[iteachgolf]

I'd agree Duke, but that is not a big surprise with my S&T influenced ideas. . I teach a steeper shoulder turn with arms that work in and across the body. Steve got the tilt part right on the downswing but they never talked about what creates it. You do not simply tilt away from the target. This will lead to fat shots and a fast rate of closure (crossover release and big draws). The lateral hip slide creates the necessary axis tilt required to shallow out in the downswing. I'll post pictures showing the differences FO showing tilt changes in the downswing and how this shallows out the shaft plane. Post so far for the most part have been backswing related.

[DukeNasty]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970001' date='Sep 24 2009, 04:42 PM']I'd agree Duke, but that is not a big surprise with my S&T influenced ideas. . I teach a steeper shoulder turn with arms that work in and across the body. Steve got the tilt part right on the downswing but they never talked about what creates it. You do not simply tilt away from the target. This will lead to fat shots and a fast rate of closure (crossover release and big draws). The lateral hip slide creates the necessary axis tilt required to shallow out in the downswing. I'll post pictures showing the differences FO showing tilt changes in the downswing and how this shallows out the shaft plane. Post so far for the most part have been backswing related.[/quote]

Iteach, it would also be helpful if you included the "how you do it" piece of the lateral hip slide. This is the piece that has always alluded me. When I am playing my best golf, my only thoughts are firing the right side...with no thoughts of weight shift. I have done a lot of right arm only swings though so maybe I have ingrained the move. In your "model" and with your students, are you getting into right versus left "intentions" and how do you get them to nail that lateral hip slide? Thanks in advance! BTW, great job with your students.

E.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='DukeNasty' post='1970135' date='Sep 24 2009, 05:54 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970001' date='Sep 24 2009, 04:42 PM']I'd agree Duke, but that is not a big surprise with my S&T influenced ideas. . I teach a steeper shoulder turn with arms that work in and across the body. Steve got the tilt part right on the downswing but they never talked about what creates it. You do not simply tilt away from the target. This will lead to fat shots and a fast rate of closure (crossover release and big draws). The lateral hip slide creates the necessary axis tilt required to shallow out in the downswing. I'll post pictures showing the differences FO showing tilt changes in the downswing and how this shallows out the shaft plane. Post so far for the most part have been backswing related.[/quote]

Iteach, it would also be helpful if you included the "how you do it" piece of the lateral hip slide. This is the piece that has always alluded me. When I am playing my best golf, my only thoughts are firing the right side...with no thoughts of weight shift. I have done a lot of right arm only swings though so maybe I have ingrained the move. In your "model" and with your students, are you getting into right versus left "intentions" and how do you get them to nail that lateral hip slide? Thanks in advance! BTW, great job with your students.

E.
[/quote]
THe hip slide starts by getting the backswing correct. If the hips turn on a tilted plane (right hip higher at the top) this encourages more of a slide. I would say the feels and thoughts vary for different people but at start down the left knee moves out side the left foot and then the left hip gets outside the left foot by impact. Add rotation and the hip slide becomes extension of the spine. I'm put together some pics to post right now.

[carrera]

[quote name='moehogan' post='1961973' date='Sep 20 2009, 09:42 AM']Once again I think you have nailed it. How do I stop my right arm from doing that bicep/hammer curl on the BS?[/quote]

The [url="http://www.swingextender.com/app2/"]Swing Extender training aid[/url] is specifically designed to fix this. A cheap, simple training aid. Highly recommended.

[Kerry_Bunker]

[quote name='carrera' post='1970213' date='Sep 24 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='moehogan' post='1961973' date='Sep 20 2009, 09:42 AM']Once again I think you have nailed it. How do I stop my right arm from doing that bicep/hammer curl on the BS?[/quote]

The [url="http://www.swingextender.com/app2/"]Swing Extender training aid[/url] is specifically designed to fix this. A cheap, simple training aid. Highly recommended.
[/quote]


I have one of these aids but I would suggest that, while they may teach you to feel a swing in which your right arm isn't fully collapsed they may not solve the root-cause of the problem.

Root cause for me was that I normally/naturally tend not to apply enough outward force (straightening action) of the right arm aka extensor action.

[iteachgolf]

This is the FO from the gentleman pictured early in this thread. He obviously is as forward with the hips as I'd like to see but there are some physical limitations and he is hitting it pretty solid. You can see hips are more forward aiding in the tilt of the shoulders to the right improving impact position.
[attachment=470376:John.jpeg]

[iteachgolf]

Here is another example of how the spine tilts away from the target at impact. Again not exactly how I'd like it to be but physical issues and time spent working on it make it what it is. Big improvement from where it was.
[attachment=470377:mark.jpeg]


Here is a video of another student a could lessons after working on tilts and handpath in backswing as well as weight more forward in downswing and at impact.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF7ezAVMcls"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF7ezAVMcls[/url]

[Tanner25]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970250' date='Sep 24 2009, 07:03 PM']This is the FO from the gentleman pictured early in this thread. He obviously is as forward with the hips as I'd like to see but there are some physical limitations and he is hitting it pretty solid. You can see hips are more forward aiding in the tilt of the shoulders to the right improving impact position.
[attachment=470376:John.jpeg][/quote]


Iteach, first I have to commend you for working the day shift w/ all of thes people
and then sharing your wisdom w/ the wrx crowd. You must love the art of teaching
and the game.

How did you get this guy who bends his left arm to a straight left arm?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='aslan' post='1970513' date='Sep 24 2009, 09:27 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970250' date='Sep 24 2009, 07:03 PM']This is the FO from the gentleman pictured early in this thread. He obviously is as forward with the hips as I'd like to see but there are some physical limitations and he is hitting it pretty solid. You can see hips are more forward aiding in the tilt of the shoulders to the right improving impact position.
[attachment=470376:John.jpeg][/quote]


Iteach, first I have to commend you for working the day shift w/ all of thes people
and then sharing your wisdom w/ the wrx crowd. You must love the art of teaching
and the game.

How did you get this guy who bends his left arm to a straight left arm?
[/quote]
More turn of the hips and shoulders and less flexion of the right arm

[martinez]

That's some good work there mate.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='martinez' post='1970574' date='Sep 24 2009, 09:52 PM']That's some good work there mate.[/quote]
Thanks. As is the juniors you've posted!

[sfong33]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970001' date='Sep 24 2009, 01:42 PM']I'd agree Duke, but that is not a big surprise with my S&T influenced ideas. . I teach a steeper shoulder turn with arms that work in and across the body. Steve got the tilt part right on the downswing but they never talked about what creates it. You do not simply tilt away from the target. This will lead to fat shots and a fast rate of closure (crossover release and big draws). The lateral hip slide creates the necessary axis tilt required to shallow out in the downswing. I'll post pictures showing the differences FO showing tilt changes in the downswing and how this shallows out the shaft plane. Post so far for the most part have been backswing related.[/quote]

iteach,

I've been watching several S&T videos on Youtube and all of them are pretty much in line with what you are recommending on this thread (at least as far as I can tell). You stated in the above quote that your swing philosophy is "S&T influenced". Could you elaborate? I definitely see the similarities, but what is different in your teachings vs. a pure S&T based swing? I am mainly concerned with the transition and forward swing. I just want to make sure that I don't go down the wrong path by trying to execute a move/swing with a technique/method that is not compatible with your philosophy. Thanks!

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='sfong33' post='1977144' date='Sep 28 2009, 08:54 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1970001' date='Sep 24 2009, 01:42 PM']I'd agree Duke, but that is not a big surprise with my S&T influenced ideas. . I teach a steeper shoulder turn with arms that work in and across the body. Steve got the tilt part right on the downswing but they never talked about what creates it. You do not simply tilt away from the target. This will lead to fat shots and a fast rate of closure (crossover release and big draws). The lateral hip slide creates the necessary axis tilt required to shallow out in the downswing. I'll post pictures showing the differences FO showing tilt changes in the downswing and how this shallows out the shaft plane. Post so far for the most part have been backswing related.[/quote]

iteach,

I've been watching several S&T videos on Youtube and all of them are pretty much in line with what you are recommending on this thread (at least as far as I can tell). You stated in the above quote that your swing philosophy is "S&T influenced". Could you elaborate? I definitely see the similarities, but what is different in your teachings vs. a pure S&T based swing? I am mainly concerned with the transition and forward swing. I just want to make sure that I don't go down the wrong path by trying to execute a move/swing with a technique/method that is not compatible with your philosophy. Thanks!
[/quote]

I pretty much teach the S&T pattern I just don't call it that. It is simply how I teach now. Some people only get some of the pieces while some go full out and try to become the model. I am heavily influenced by the time I've spent with Andy and Mike.

[JD3]

teach,
do you ever use the butt of the club as the proxy for handpath? i mean, sometimes people can take their hands in but with too much pronation the arms will still lift off the chest and the shaft will be pointing well above the plane line. is it better to think of getting the butt coming in and staying in?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jduncanm3' post='1981943' date='Oct 1 2009, 10:38 AM']teach,
do you ever use the butt of the club as the proxy for handpath? i mean, sometimes people can take their hands in but with too much pronation the arms will still lift off the chest and the shaft will be pointing well above the plane line. is it better to think of getting the butt coming in and staying in?[/quote]
Everyone will feel different things to accomplish it. I always try to get the club on plane in the backswing but am more concerned how on plane it is at P3 and beyond. Taking it slightly inside isn't a swing killer IMO. The more the hands go in the less likely they are to over rotate as it is a steepening move in the backswing.

[JD3]

P3 would seem to be the point where a lot of players can be seen setting their wrists too, presumably to get the shaft on plane from there and beyond. have you used or would you recommend one of those laser pointer devices to measure if shaft is onplane?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jduncanm3' post='1981994' date='Oct 1 2009, 11:07 AM']P3 would seem to be the point where a lot of players can be seen setting their wrists too, presumably to get the shaft on plane from there and beyond. have you used or would you recommend one of those laser pointer devices to measure if shaft is onplane?[/quote]
I have and use a smart stick myself. I use it in some lessons and many I don't. Just depends. It's fun to mess with at home though

[rexfan]

ITeach,

Where do you like the ball position for the Driver and do you ever swing up on it?

Thanks,

Terry

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='rexfan' post='1985097' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:33 AM']ITeach,

Where do you like the ball position for the Driver and do you ever swing up on it?

Thanks,

Terry[/quote]
Ball position is about 2 balls inside my left heel. I actually tend to hit too much up on the ball and create too little spin. I am working on leveling out my angle of attack and is now pretty darn close to level maybe +1 or so. I personally don't believe anyone should TRY to hit up on the ball as it can cause many swing issues.

[JD3]

nice, like the lefty kid too!

in your own swing it looks like your hips make a complete turn pretty quickly in the backswing. almost before the shoulders and then arms. i think i may have heard Clearwater say something like turn hips and shoulders "early and a lot" on the backswing too. as if it's ok they get ahead of everything else. is that accurate?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jduncanm3' post='1992884' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:08 PM']nice, like the lefty kid too!

in your own swing it looks like your hips make a complete turn pretty quickly in the backswing. almost before the shoulders and then arms. i think i may have heard Clearwater say something like turn hips and shoulders "early and a lot" on the backswing too. as if it's ok they get ahead of everything else. is that accurate?[/quote]

I wouldn't say my hips turn before my shoulders. You have to remember in my DTL video it is shot on the target line and I look closed in relation to the camera position making it appear like my hips turn faster and are more closed than they would be from more straight on. I don't restrict my hip turn at all.

[JD3]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1992909' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:19 PM'][quote name='jduncanm3' post='1992884' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:08 PM']nice, like the lefty kid too!

in your own swing it looks like your hips make a complete turn pretty quickly in the backswing. almost before the shoulders and then arms. i think i may have heard Clearwater say something like turn hips and shoulders "early and a lot" on the backswing too. as if it's ok they get ahead of everything else. is that accurate?[/quote]

I wouldn't say my hips turn before my shoulders. You have to remember in my DTL video it is shot on the target line and I look closed in relation to the camera position making it appear like my hips turn faster and are more closed than they would be from more straight on. I[b] don't restrict my hip turn at all.[/b][/quote]
but at the same time it looks like your right leg doesn't straighten completely like Clearwater's:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGxlWspLmzg"]Clearwater DTL[/url]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jduncanm3' post='1992923' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:22 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1992909' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:19 PM'][quote name='jduncanm3' post='1992884' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:08 PM']nice, like the lefty kid too!

in your own swing it looks like your hips make a complete turn pretty quickly in the backswing. almost before the shoulders and then arms. i think i may have heard Clearwater say something like turn hips and shoulders "early and a lot" on the backswing too. as if it's ok they get ahead of everything else. is that accurate?[/quote]

I wouldn't say my hips turn before my shoulders. You have to remember in my DTL video it is shot on the target line and I look closed in relation to the camera position making it appear like my hips turn faster and are more closed than they would be from more straight on. I[b] don't restrict my hip turn at all.[/b][/quote]
but at the same time it looks like your right leg doesn't straighten completely like Clearwater's:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGxlWspLmzg"]Clearwater DTL[/url]
[/quote]
Nick's right knee still has some bend. The right knee shouldn't completely straighten/lock.
Some examples:
[attachment=475743:Picture_3.png]
[attachment=475744:Picture_2.png]
[attachment=475745:Picture_1.png]

[JD3]

towards the end of my last range session last Sunday i finally got the feel for that. my hip turn was VERY restricted on the backswing for a long time. i realized it was limiting how inward my hands could get too and encourage stuck arms. w/o hips, shoulders and arms/hands getting deep, you can't possibly approach from a large enough inside angle. and perhaps worse if you're under the impression you're deep enough when you're not, and you try sliding on a closed angle, you create other problems on the downswing.