If Jack Nicklaus is the best player ever why not teach his putting technique ?

The modern day putting model is one of shoulders, hips, knees and feet all being relatively in line and then rocking the shoulders to create a pendulum stroke. Jack's set up is crouched over (comfortable) open to the target line (uses binocular vision) and a right handed piston stroke to "push" the ball towards the target line. I recently tried Jack's method as a goof

and instantly putted lights out and don't think I am going back to "conventional" anytime soon !

Here is Jack putting at age 23 :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0n9L8v9vOw

For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.

[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.

Putting is such and emotive subject - hit 18 greens in regulation and even a complete hacker can put together a good score. Knowing the putting stats and just how many putts the pro's DON'T hole is (in my opinion) a very important part of understanding putting. Watching TV highlights of all the players individually holing birdie putt after birdie putts doesn't reflect reality.

To see what putting is (more often than not like in reality) spend 20 mins watching this vid......

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=vJXmoHUkMIQ[/media]

For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.

So you want to teach a modern athlete to contort themselves into a rounded back, hunched over position with a super short putter and a little punch stroke that's better suited for old, slow greens?

[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]
The question starts with the word "IF" and this is NOT a debate as to who is better Tiger or Jack. It has to do with a style of putting that produced 18 Majors.
Thanks
Ray

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368707228' post='7046014']
[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.
[/quote]
[color=#282828]The question starts with the word "IF" and this is NOT a debate as to who is better Tiger or Jack. It has to do with a style of putting that produced 18 Majors.[/color]
[color=#282828]Thanks[/color]
[color=#282828]Ray[/color]

[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1368708593' post='7046132']
So you want to teach a modern athlete to contort themselves into a rounded back, hunched over position with a super short putter and a little punch stroke that's better suited for old, slow greens?
[/quote]

Not really wanting to convert the "modern athlete" (although Gary Player was and still is ) yet I have seen these technically correct modern day static/rigid putting strokes (Michelle Wei) produce poor results and maybe they should try a different approach. BTW when Jack was playing Augusta and Oakmont in the 70's and 80's the greens were rolling at a 12.
Cheers,
Ray

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1368708122' post='7046094']
Putting is such and emotive subject - hit 18 greens in regulation and even a complete hacker can put together a good score. Knowing the putting stats and just how many putts the pro's DON'T hole is (in my opinion) a very important part of understanding putting. Watching TV highlights of all the players individually holing birdie putt after birdie putts doesn't reflect reality.

To see what putting is (more often than not like in reality) spend 20 mins watching this vid......

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=vJXmoHUkMIQ[/media]
[/quote]
Agreed bad ball striking usually produces more putts per round. 'Im more curious as to why people have abandoned putting styles like Jack when I don't think that all the science behind creating a perfect pendulum stroke has dramatically impacted the stats for putts made per round. In the opening scene of your video it shows that the course record for Muirfield is 63 by Isao Iaoki... U ever seen his putting stroke !!! LOL.
Cheers,
Ray

[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368702696' post='7045746']
The modern day putting model is one of shoulders, hips, knees and feet all being relatively in line and then rocking the shoulders to create a pendulum stroke. Jack's set up is crouched over (comfortable) open to the target line (uses binocular vision) and a right handed piston stroke to "push" the ball towards the target line. I recently tried Jack's method as a goof
and instantly putted lights out and don't think I am going back to "conventional" anytime soon !

Here is Jack putting at age 23 :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0n9L8v9vOw
[/quote]

I have taught Jack's method - Right Arm Piston Stroke - in our Putting Schools since 1995. As one option that students could try. It is inferior from a bio-mechanical standpoint to shoulder girdle rocking or conventional putting, since he uses two secondary power sources, the right elbow straightening and the wrists un-hinging a bit. He does rock his shoulders as his main power source or as an equal source of power to his right arm motion.

[quote name='parmark' timestamp='1368709667' post='7046230']
The guy just wants to sell his shirts, he's all over these threads. What's coming next is what a coincidence, the shirt will help get you to putt like it'. As Iteach tried to tell him at one point, perhaps less is more! Or better.
[/quote]

ACTUALLY YOU ARE WRONG AND STOP BEING A BULLY. THE GSS SHIRT PROMOTES A PENDULUM STROKE SO IT IS NOT CONSISTANT WITH MY QUESTION OR MY OWN PUTTING STROKE AND IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO SAY DONT SAY IT.

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1368709959' post='7046258']
[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368702696' post='7045746']
The modern day putting model is one of shoulders, hips, knees and feet all being relatively in line and then rocking the shoulders to create a pendulum stroke. Jack's set up is crouched over (comfortable) open to the target line (uses binocular vision) and a right handed piston stroke to "push" the ball towards the target line. I recently tried Jack's method as a goof
and instantly putted lights out and don't think I am going back to "conventional" anytime soon !

Here is Jack putting at age 23 :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0n9L8v9vOw
[/quote]

I have taught Jack's method - Right Arm Piston Stroke - in our Putting Schools since 1995. As one option that students could try. It is inferior from a bio-mechanical standpoint to shoulder girdle rocking or conventional putting, since he uses two secondary power sources, the right elbow straightening and the wrists un-hinging a bit. He does rock his shoulders as his main power source or as an equal source of power to his right arm motion.
[/quote]
Thanks for the post and information. Yes Jack's stroke is more feel yet I think his great distance control (made a lot of bombs) has to do with his open stance and reliance on his binocular vision to give a better view of the target line. A conventional stroke and set up would not permit an open stance.
On another note, there is a really cool article done awhile back (ill find it) on putting while looking at the hole. The testing showed that the subjects putted better especially on lag putts.
Cheers,
Ray

[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368709843' post='7046244']
'Im more curious as to why people have abandoned putting styles like Jack when I don't think that all the science behind creating a perfect pendulum stroke has dramatically impacted the stats for putts made per round.
[/quote]

I tend to agree... I'd take Snedeker's putting skills tomorrow if they were on offer.

Never really been a good one for putting.....I'm a good putter but it just happens naturally. Some days they go in more than others but I don't think that's something you can 'force'. Make a good stroke and keep your expectations realistic.... basically get out of your own way!!!!

When I was a kid, Jack was my idol, and I putted in a very similar style. Over the (many) years, my putting style transitioned to a more conventional style with my stance square, and a shoulder rocking motion. I was a pretty good putter, but not great.

This season, my putting has been atrocious! Poor contact, poor speed control, and lots of 3-putts. A few weeks ago, just for grins, I tried my old stroke, open stance, crouched over the ball, and a right hand driven piston stroke. All of a sudden, I was making great contact and had much better speed. Don't know if I will use it all season, but, it sure felt great!

[quote name='oldpalchamp' timestamp='1368711083' post='7046382']
When I was a kid, Jack was my idol, and I putted in a very similar style. Over the (many) years, my putting style transitioned to a more conventional style with my stance square, and a shoulder rocking motion. I was a pretty good putter, but not great.

This season, my putting has been atrocious! Poor contact, poor speed control, and lots of 3-putts. A few weeks ago, just for grins, I tried my old stroke, open stance, crouched over the ball, and a right hand driven piston stroke. All of a sudden, I was making great contact and had much better speed. Don't know if I will use it all season, but, it sure felt great!
[/quote]

Ah YES !- and this is the reason for my post ! Maybe comtt to doing it for a season and see if your HCP and putts per round go down.
Thanks and cheers,
Ray

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1368710827' post='7046356']
[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368709843' post='7046244']
'Im more curious as to why people have abandoned putting styles like Jack when I don't think that all the science behind creating a perfect pendulum stroke has dramatically impacted the stats for putts made per round.
[/quote]

I tend to agree... I'd take Snedeker's putting skills tomorrow if they were on offer.

Never really been a good one for putting.....I'm a good putter but it just happens naturally. Some days they go in more than others but I don't think that's something you can 'force'. Make a good stroke and keep your expectations realistic.... basically get out of your own way!!!!
[/quote]
Thanks for post ! You mentioned "expectations" which is an important word. Most golfers (sometimes myself) think that they should make 20 footers all day long when the tour pro makes them less than 25% of the time. Try staring at the hole and putting...its a good way of getting out of your own way !
Cheers,
Ray

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368707228' post='7046014']
[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]d

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.
[/quote]
Palmer, Player, Trevino, Weiskopf, Miller, Watson, Floyd, Thomson, Ballesteros etc....these are the players that Nicklaus had to compete against!

The difference (for me) in the modern putting stroke and Jack's in my experience

1) Being more hunched and front foot open, allows me to see the line better and allows me to focus more.
2) The modern style is less ticing on my back, but I don't have near the focus and feel that is required on being determined to make a putt.

So, I do a variation of the two -- I open up the leading foot a tad, hunch over about 3/4 of the way and I've been sinking more putts. Find what works and give it a try for a while. The big thing is to get comfortable in your stance first and foremost. Then make a smooth roll. Sorry for getting off topic. Whenever topics like these come up, the teacher in me starts analyzing.

Try hunching over. Your eyes are nearer the ground and the hole looks BIGGER!

[quote name='Golf Monkey' timestamp='1368711798' post='7046446']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368707228' post='7046014']
[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]d

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.
[/quote]
[b]Palmer, Player, Trevino, Weiskopf, Miller, Watson, Floyd, Thomson, Ballesteros etc....these are the players that Nicklaus had to compete against![/b]
[/quote]

Those players are fantastic but they also would not have won as many times if they played in this era. It's not the superstars that are less, its the field that is much better.

The current crop of pampered automatons would have [quote name='HoganWoods' timestamp='1368714722' post='7046712']
[quote name='Golf Monkey' timestamp='1368711798' post='7046446']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368707228' post='7046014']
[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]d

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.
[/quote]
[b]Palmer, Player, Trevino, Weiskopf, Miller, Watson, Floyd, Thomson, Ballesteros etc....these are the players that Nicklaus had to compete against![/b]
[/quote]

Those players are fantastic but they also would not have won as many times if they played in this era. It's not the superstars that are less, its the field that is much better.
[/quote]
The current crop of pampered automatons wouldn't have cut it in The Golden Age.

Mac O'grady teaches the Nicklaus technique. Geoff Mangum teaches several of the key elements of what Jack (and many others of his era) did.

Because whether he's the best player or not, he's definitely not the best putter. There are too many people above him on the list to teach his style. Crenshaw being one.

yeah if I were going for putting instruction I would go to who several PGA and LPGA players have gone to with good results..... Dave Stockton.

[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1368716346' post='7046874']
Because whether he's the best player or not, he's definitely not the best putter. There are too many people above him on the list to teach his style. Crenshaw being one.
[/quote]

You don't win 19 majors without being one of the greatest putters ever. Jack's putting was very underrated because his ball striking was so good. He was without a doubt one of, if not the, best putters of his era. His stroke may not have been as pretty as Crenshaw's, but it was every bit as effective.

[quote name='oldpalchamp' timestamp='1368717053' post='7046960']
[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1368716346' post='7046874']
Because whether he's the best player or not, he's definitely not the best putter. There are too many people above him on the list to teach his style. Crenshaw being one.
[/quote]

You don't win 19 majors without being one of the greatest putters ever. Jack's putting was very underrated because his ball striking was so good. He was without a doubt one of, if not the, best putters of his era. His stroke may not have been as pretty as Crenshaw's, but it was every bit as effective.
[/quote]

Great point !

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368715532' post='7046790']
Mac O'grady teaches the Nicklaus technique. Geoff Mangum teaches several of the key elements of what Jack (and many others of his era) did.
[/quote]

Cool I never knew that Mac O'Grady teaches Jack putting !

[quote name='HoganWoods' timestamp='1368714722' post='7046712']
[quote name='Golf Monkey' timestamp='1368711798' post='7046446']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368707228' post='7046014']
[quote name='Eag1e' timestamp='1368705535' post='7045908']
For starters, Jack isn't the best player ever. Tiger is.
[/quote]d

Not even close. Just a fact of sports, over time competition improves, so if you have two individuals with similar achievements, the one who did it in the more modern time is better. Tiger's competition is so much more difficult than Jack's.
[/quote]
[b]Palmer, Player, Trevino, Weiskopf, Miller, Watson, Floyd, Thomson, Ballesteros etc....these are the players that Nicklaus had to compete against![/b]
[/quote]

Those players are fantastic but they also would not have won as many times if they played in this era. It's not the superstars that are less, its the field that is much better.
[/quote]

Its a good debate but remember the equipment is better and imagine Jack with a hot driver, cavity back forged irons, better shafts and a ProV1 x ball ?
I dunno....maybe a better question for the post is who would you take in a putting contest...Jack in his prime or Tiger right now ?

I will speak from personal experience. I switched to that setup after Nicklaus won the Masters in 86 when I was a college freshman. I nearly won on the Web.com using that setup and played some great golf between 93-96.

At the end of 96 I went to Pelz, he changed me to a square stance and square to square stroke, got the yips from 30 feet and longer and have never been as good of a putter as I was before.

My hypothesis is Nicklaus was a left eye dominant right handed golfer (as i am) and it allowed his submissive eye to see the hole better...as it did for me...and made it easier to find the line.