So really...re: divots...

[Vindog]

> @HatsForBats said:

>

>

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > I believe I speak for many of us and say that I will continue to play golf. As other have mentioned the game is not just about can you hit the ball from here to there. It is really more about mental challenges and dealing with the breaks-both good and poor- that are presented to you over the course of the round.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Some of you will disagree and you are welcome to play your version of a game. Call it the equivalent of Trackman combine or Topgolf but you cannot really call it golf if you want to move the ball every hole to a lie that suits you.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I believe I speak for many when I say **WE** will continue to play **GOLF** even though we may not agree with a rule or want a **PARTICULAR** rule changed. I know you think you are getting in a little dig with the 'you are not playing golf' comment.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > There are definately some that really seem to enjoy the game being more about the mental challange rather than the shot making. Like the pro that used to be at our club who enjoyed putting pins in treacherous locations. Thankfully not many agreed with him and he is no longer there. The USGA shows their colors once a year at their tournament. I think the torunament setup speaks for itself.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Good new Hats! We agree on something finally. :)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stupid setups-like the US Open at times and pins in, as you say, treacherous positions are not what I meant. I agree with you that they are just ridiculous. We had an event at my club for the Masters and the head greenkeeper was told by the tournament chair to pick the hardest pin possible on every green. In my opinion that is fun once a year when we have our Superintendents Revenge event but for a bigger event of the year the pins should be tough but reasonable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To me part of the allure of golf is how you handle the positions your ball finds you in at times. Divot holes would be one example. Trees can be another. Two balls can be a yard apart in the fairway and have one clear shot and another partially blocked by a tree limb. One ball might plug in a bunker and another sit pretty next to it. Those are the type of positions I mean. I would truly hate to see the rules change to where you can move the ball and give yourself whatever lie is desired from any part of the course.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Glad we can agree on somethng. I am sure there is a lot more we would agree on but people get caught up in the few things they disagree on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you removed fairway divot holes from the 'how you handle the positions your ball finds you in at times' would it significantly impact how often you have to handle the position your ball finds you in? I don't think so. According to many who disagree with me the impact must be about next to nil?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, two balls can be close in the fairway but one blocked by a tree and another not. However, both players could have hit shots to avoid that area of the course. Correct? As I said before I have yet to meet the player that can avoid fairway divots. Same with bunkers. These are areas of course design that players can avoid with a good shot.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't recall saying anything about moving the ball to get any lie desired from any part of the course. In my mind the relief would be almost the exact same shot minus being in the fairway divot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > >

> > > > > There are plenty of other areas where that type of thing can come into play as well (whether a ball is OB, crossed the other side of the water hazard line, is virtually known to have gone into a water hazard rather than being a lost ball etc.). As I mentioned before there was also the determining if a mark on the green was a ball mark last year and before.

> > > > >

> > > > > Plus if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > > >

> > > > If it's too healed it's a divot? That would be the same as saying the whole fairway is a divot with some folks.

> > > > "Oh look buddy, it's in a divot- I get to move it"

> > > >

> > > > "Are you daft? That's perfect grass!"

> > > >

> > > > "Yeah, but I remember it was a divot and now it's pretty much healed but ya know that qualifies."

> > >

> > > No. Someone is saying the **DIVOT** is too healed that would seem to indicate it is still a divot. Hard to make a judgement without seeing it.

> > >

> > > Suddenly we have gone from it happens so infrequently that it's a non-issue to some players will ask fo relief on every fairway hit. No.

> >

> > But they are already. More than one poster in this thread has mentioned it as a problem solver.

>

> Some have mentioned that but it has nothing to do with my response you quoted.

>

> Shilgy: That would be the same as saying the whole fairway is a divot with some folks.

> Hats: Suddenly we have gone from it happens so infrequently that it's a non-issue to some players will ask fo® relief on every fairway hit.

 

The problem "solved" was the problem of defining a divot, and defining when the divot ceased to be a divot. Allowing relief anywhere in the fairway was suggested as a means of circumventing that attempt at definition. I thought it was relevant given the discussion was around defining a divot on the course.

 

But maybe not.

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @KyGolf said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > >

> > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > >

> > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > >

> > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > >

> >

> > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

>

> Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

>

> Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

 

https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

[Shilgy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > >

> > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > >

> > >

> > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> >

> > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> >

> > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

>

> https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

 

Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

 

Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.

[HatsForBats]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > >

> > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > >

> > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> >

> > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

>

> Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

>

> Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.

 

Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

 

Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

 

When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

[Shilgy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > >

> > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > >

> > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > >

> > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> >

> > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> >

> > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.

>

> Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

>

> Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

>

> When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

 

I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

 

Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Congrats. This thread now contains more posts than all wrx members will find themselves in a divot this season. :)

[nsxguy]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > >

> > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > >

> > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > >

> > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > >

> > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > >

> > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> >

> > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> >

> > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> >

> > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

>

> I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

>

> Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

 

Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

 

I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

 

I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

 

Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > > >

> > > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > > >

> > > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> > >

> > > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > >

> > > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> > >

> > > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

> >

> > I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

> >

> > Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

>

> Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

>

> I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

>

> I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

>

> Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

 

Check again who slipped 'paint' in there.

[Shilgy]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > > >

> > > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > > >

> > > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> > >

> > > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > >

> > > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> > >

> > > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

> >

> > I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

> >

> > Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

>

> Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

>

> I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

>

> I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

>

> Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

 

You did not read the previous posts. I suggested we paint around a freshly made divot hole so we could know exactly where it is as it begins to heal. My question was when is that spot no longer a divot.

[Shilgy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > > > >

> > > > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> > > >

> > > > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > > >

> > > > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> > > >

> > > > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

> > >

> > > I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

> > >

> > > Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

> >

> > Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

> >

> > I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

> >

> > I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

> >

> > Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

>

> Check again who slipped 'paint' in there.

 

This new format makes it more difficult to look at anything but the most recent post. I corrected him in my post above.

[nsxguy]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > > > >

> > > > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> > > >

> > > > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > > >

> > > > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> > > >

> > > > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

> > >

> > > I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

> > >

> > > Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

> >

> > Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

> >

> > I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

> >

> > I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

> >

> > Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

>

> You did not read the previous posts. I suggested we paint around a freshly made divot hole so we could know exactly where it is as it begins to heal. My question was when is that spot no longer a divot.

 

LOL. I searched the page for "paint" and the first time it showed, or I guess the first time I SAW it, was in Hats' post.

 

So I take back my comment about Hats "moving the goal posts" even though he has done it before. Mea culpa.

 

But I stand by my understanding of painted areas. If that paint is there I'm taking relief. Guess that's just another reason for not allowing relief from divots or "divots". LOL

[Mr. Bean]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. **Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > > > > > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.**

> > > > >

> > > > > Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

> > > > >

> > > > > When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

> > > >

> > > > I think we should both stop-you have you opinion as stated above and I have mine which is if it is too healed to be a divot hole it is no longer a hole. To see that spot in your definition a player would have to know it was a divot hole recently. But what if it is just another slight disfigurement in the fairway? That is when this whole discussion becomes about just doing Roadkings idea and giving preferred lies at all times in the fairway. It is semantics to say that one group thinks the slightly worn spot is a divot and the other does not. Either way the area is in too good a shape to grant your proposed relief.

> > > >

> > > > Let's just shake hands and move on to the next discussion. Deal?

> > >

> > > Shilgster. I was perfectly happy letting this die but did you notice the "paint" Hats slipped in there ?

> > >

> > > I've accused Hats of "moving the goal posts" before and now he's done it again. Paint ?

> > >

> > > I'm sure others will correct me if I'm mistaken but if *I* see an area with paint clearly around it I am assuming it is ground under repair. Is this not correct ? And, as long as that paint is clearly visible, it still IS GUR, no ? Is so, there's no argument, is there ? LOL

> > >

> > > Unlike some others I have never worked on a golf course so I guess I'd assume that whatever paint (or whatever it is) they use on GUR markings would get washed away in roughly the same time as it would normally take for the GUR to "heal", no ? Assuming it wasn't, more or less, a "permanent" GUR (as ground that may or may not ultimately be repaired).

> >

> > You did not read the previous posts. I suggested we paint around a freshly made divot hole so we could know exactly where it is as it begins to heal. My question was when is that spot no longer a divot.

>

> LOL. I searched the page for "paint" and the first time it showed, or I guess the first time I SAW it, was in Hats' post.

>

> So I take back my comment about Hats "moving the goal posts" even though he has done it before. Mea culpa.

>

> But I stand by my understanding of painted areas. If that paint is there I'm taking relief. Guess that's just another reason for not allowing relief from divots or "divots". LOL

 

The next never ending thread will apparently be about how long a paint is visible to such extent that a player may take relief...

[SNIPERBBB]

We've already had that thread of course we've had this current thread many times.

[Sawgrass]

I suspect Bruce Koepka, after making a neat birdie out of a partially filled divot hole on #1 at Pebble today, would be unimpressed with this discussion.

[sui generis]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Because you want the game to be fair you believe a player should get relief from a divot hole in the fairway. Correct? But what is fair about when in a competition one players group saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Play it just like on the green. No disagreement needed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In the fairway, just like on the green, you can fix those irregularities between you and the hole. But you cannot fix your lie.

> > > > > > > > > > RK as I recall you advocate lcp in the fairway? At all times? From anything? For any reason? So if you don't like your lie just move it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I fear Sui was too subtle replying to this. You absolutely cannot fix those irregularities between you and the green if it improves conditions affecting the stroke (which includes line of play).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thank you, I do know that. I could have written that he could do so after he hit his shot so the next guy didn't have to suffer as he did hitting from a divot hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This whole thread is a bunch of whining about the rules of a game people voluntarily play. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people attempt to play a game when they do disdain the way it is to be played. It would be like trying to play chess with checkers rules.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Agree fully with your point on the whining issue. Here we are on a really simple golf rules issue - divots - and somehow the complainers just can't help themselves 500 posts in. **There is no possible rule that can be written that would consistently and fairly provide relief for that uncommon but unfortunate experience of your ball finishing in an unrepaired, badly repaired or sanded divot. ** Any attempt at such a rule is doomed to failure and massive misapplication, so Ruling Bodies have it absolutely right in saying _**play as lies unless you are in a rules-defined relief condition - and a divot is not one of those**_.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sure there is. Ask the "Three Amigos". LCP in the fairway. Easy Peasy. LMAO

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > While they are at it they can try to precisely define the margins of a " fairway".

> > > >

> > > > Hey, I figure if they can define a divot they can manage defining the fairway.

> > > >

> > > > Oops, I forgot, They can't? define a divot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my bad !!! LOL

> > >

> > > https://www.google.com/search?ei=cO0AXcblOOfF_QaUt6bgBA&q=golf+divot+hole+definition&oq=golf+divot+hole+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.418422.419076..419219...0.0..0.83.362.5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i8i13i30j35i304i39.XT74oAJ0K4Y

> >

> > Perfect definition-thank you. We all agree what the newly made divot hole is and if the rule was made that gave relief that part would be simple. Since you did not like my earlier post about a somewhat healed divot what exactly would be your fix for relief no longer being granted from that spot?

> >

> > Imagine if you will a new divot hole. one we all understand to be a divot. Let's spray a bit of red paint around the edges so we know exactly where it is. At some point in the next few days that grass will begin to grow back-healing the divot. You said a few posts back that if the divot is "too healed to be a divot" that means it is still a divot.

> > So the question is when exactly in your opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? If the answer becomes " too healed is still a divot" how is relief from that spot ever not granted in the future-for eternity? So yes-every spot in the fairway becomes a "too healed divot" that many players would want to fluff it up from.

>

> Post 538 - Shilgy: But what is fair about when in a competition one players group **saying that divot hole is too healed to get relief** and another group telling their buddy relief is granted?

> Post 539 - HatsForBats: if someone is saying 'the divot is too healed' that's kind of a tell that relief should have been granted in my book.

>

> Let's keep it straight that **you** were the one that said when that divot hole is too healed. My resposne was directly to your comment. If a group is saying **that divot hole** then it would seem logical that **your** group is admitting it is a divot hole. Yes? If it is still a divot hole then it is not too healed to be considered a divot hole. If they are calling it a divot hole how can they then claim it is not a divot hole?

>

> When exactly in my opinion is that area inside the painted spot in the fairway no longer a divot to get relief from? When it can no longer be determined if it is a divot hole caused by a player similar to what was done with ball marks on the green in past years.

 

No one cares that you and your friends choose to add a layer of complexity into an otherwise simple process. Beyond that, you're just pything into the wind.> @Sawgrass said:

> I suspect Bruce Koepka, after making a neat birdie out of a partially filled divot hole on #1 at Pebble today, would be unimpressed with this discussion.

 

Troublemaker!

[rogolf]

Might I suggest this:

[HatsForBats]

Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

[Sawgrass]

 

Go back to the true spirit, huh? Did you know that the first known rules of golf, written in 1744, included a free drop? Check out Rule 13:

 

13. Neither Trench, Ditch or ****, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out teed /and play'd with any Iron Club.

[HatsForBats]

And?

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> And?

 

To spell it out, “And, your post #617 incorrectly implies that the beginnings of golf required you to play it as it lies or take a penalty stroke.”

 

Or are you suggesting that some other era provided only that binary choice?

 

Seems to me you’d have been unhappy with the rules whenever you played.

[QEight]

@HatsForBats said:

> Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

 

How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

 

[Roadking2003]

> @HatsForBats said:

> Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

 

Absolutely! And learning to hit from a cart path is a skill. If these guys are good, they should learn that skill.

[Roadking2003]

> @QEight said:

> @HatsForBats said:

> > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

>

> How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

>

 

How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

[LeoLeo99]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @QEight said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

> >

> > How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

> >

>

> How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

 

Or the safety of the player?

[antip]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @QEight said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

> >

> > How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

> >

>

> How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

 

This has no logical connection to a discussion of divots. The rules are clear that artificial constructions on the course are not part of the game of golf (unless declared to be integral). No one is required to play from such immovable obstructions.

[QEight]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @QEight said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

> >

> > How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

> >

>

> How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

 

In the same way that you are not forced to break sprinkler head with your stroke.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @QEight said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

> >

> > How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

> >

>

> How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

 

Here we go again... You really refuse to learn, don't you? Just keep repeating those silly comments of yours proving you have no idea how golf is supposed to be played.

[heatedwire]

Probably been said by a number of people...couldn't be bothered reading through the thread to check.

 

I, and pretty much everyone I play with will take relief from divots. I maintain a handicap, and play in the odd club event, however usually just play for the fun of it, and am more than capable of keeping track of my progression without needing to submit 'official' rounds.

 

If you really need the competitiveness of playing in the club comp, then you just have to accept that even though half the people playing don't know the rules and probably break them, you still have to hit out of the divot.

 

Once you get to the point where you don't care anymore, your golf will probably improve, and you will have no reason to hit out of a divot in the middle of the fairway.

[KyGolf]

> @heatedwire said:

> Probably been said by a number of people...couldn't be bothered reading through the thread to check.

>

> I, and pretty much everyone I play with will take relief from divots. I maintain a handicap, and play in the odd club event, however usually just play for the fun of it, and am more than capable of keeping track of my progression without needing to submit 'official' rounds.

>

> If you really need the competitiveness of playing in the club comp, then you just have to accept that even though half the people playing don't know the rules and probably break them, you still have to hit out of the divot.

>

> Once you get to the point where you don't care anymore, your golf will probably improve, and you will have no reason to hit out of a divot in the middle of the fairway.

 

So what you are saying is your scores will get better if you cheat?

[LeoLeo99]

> @QEight said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @QEight said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > Bruce, 18th, Cart Path. Let's get back to the true spirit of 'play it as it lies' golf. Play it as it lies, or take a penalty, no matter where it ends up.

> > >

> > > How is a relief for the safety of the player and the protection of the course related to a relief from a divot?

> > >

> >

> > How is relief from a cart path protecting the course?

>

> In the same way that you are not forced to break sprinkler head with your stroke.

 

You think the cart path will break if someone hits a shot off it? Not understanding your compassion.