So really...re: divots...

SNIPERBBB · June 3, 2019

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> @"Colin L"

> You're missing the point because you're personalizing it by making it about me. Considering they only received 52,000 responses across the world and there are ~15M with a handicap worldwide, that is a 0.3% response rate. If that seems good to you then we are just going to have to disagree. That's not an adequate sample to drive a sweeping change.

>

> Were you part of any focus group or did you participate in any survey? I'd be curious to know how it works.

>

> As for being for or against the WHS, as long as the system doesn't impact how people play. The usga mentions the importance of recognizing regional differences as to not change how people play. But I don't think standardization is possible without impacting some groups.

>

> As for the need, I just don't see anyone except for the elite of elite with the need to jet across the pond for handicapped golf against those playing under other systems.

>

> The development of WHS is using resources to that could otherwise be directed toward efforts that would have a more positive impact.

>

> @davep043 I get about 100 or more emails a day across three accounts. I do my best to get to the things that are important and require a response. Things get missed. Given the low response rate it was missed by 99%. I thought it was a standard HC update email that comes out bimonthly. I don't need to read those because I already know my handicap and its trend. You implying that those who didn't respond either don't care or are somehow ignorant about handicaps is really off base.

How many members does the USGA have? Same for the other handicap bodies. Most people that have handicaps aren't members of the USGA. I doubt 10% of people with an active handicap are members of the USGA. I'd be floored with 5%.

bladehunter · June 3, 2019

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

>

> I'm just the opposite. People occasionally text me and then ask why I didn't respond for a day or two. I frequently check texts every other day.

>

yea.. i remember those days ..lol... with a 10 year old playing every sport on earth (coaches only text now in group format) , friends, wife and soooo many customers who almost only text now, its not at all rare for me to have 10 or more text conversations going at once during the day . I much prefer it to talking on the phone .. I detest that .. even for 30 seconds. Im the guy who cant multi task while talking on the phone.. so im tied to the wall as if i have a corded phone when im on it .. Text , however i can do while doing anything else ( excluding driving of course) ... anyway ... lol

DaveLeeNC · June 3, 2019

Back on the topic of divots, this is an interesting (I thought) story regarding that.

Back when I was involved with our MGA and Handicap Committee I got involved in a discussion regarding the upcoming MGA Match Play event which was in the spring. We had been playing 'winter rules' and things were just barely beginning to green up (bermuda, no over-seeding, in NC). The fairways here by spring are beaten down (by carts) to 'bare carpet'-like turf. The lies are fine for low handicappers but the older, higher handicap golfers had trouble, particularly hitting longer clubs off the deck. The truth is that LCP did little to help, but seemed helpful.

So we were going to play it down except that a concern was raised over a couple of areas where lots of balls end up that had 6 months of unhealed, maybe filled or maybe not, divots. So one morning I went out to one of the worst areas where golfers typically hit wedges for their 3rd shot (par 5 at the bottom of a hill). I took 30 golf balls and I just tossed them around and counted how many ended up in divots. I was quite surprised at how rare that was even in this area of MANY divots. I don't recall the numbers (it was maybe 13 years ago), but it was an interesting experiment. We were considering LCP on just a couple holes, but we played it down everywhere.

dave

SNIPERBBB · June 3, 2019

It's actually harder to end up in a divot than to hole out an approach shot. Ball isnt going to be slowed down by the divot due to lack of grass. It might pop up a little when it hits the lip.

DaveLeeNC · June 3, 2019

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> It's actually harder to end up in a divot than to hole out an approach shot. Ball isnt going to be slowed down by the divot due to lack of grass. It might pop up a little when it hits the lip.

That would be true if the green had maybe 50 cups cut into it :)

dave

caniac6 · June 3, 2019

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> It's actually harder to end up in a divot than to hole out an approach shot. Ball isnt going to be slowed down by the divot due to lack of grass. It might pop up a little when it hits the lip.

I don't end up in many divots, but I play out of divots a lot more often than I hole out approach shots.

Mr. Bean · June 3, 2019

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > >

> > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > >

> > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > >

> > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> >

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > >

> > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > >

> > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > >

> > > > Or do you ?

> > > >

> > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > >

> > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > >

> > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > >

> > > Lets break that down:

> > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > >

> > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > >

> > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > >

> > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > >

> > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > >

> >

> > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> >

> > Priceless.

>

> Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

So they should have called you in person..?

This is more fun than a circus!!

davep043 · June 3, 2019

> @HitEmTrue said:

> < tested another word/name...this post is deleted now >

>

I really don't mind not being able to use the names of political figures in these forums. Things become contentious enough when we're just talking about rules, politics would only make it worse.

BlackDiamondPar5 · June 3, 2019

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > >

> > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > >

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > > >

> > > > > Or do you ?

> > > > >

> > > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > > >

> > > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > > >

> > > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > > >

> > > > Lets break that down:

> > > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > > >

> > > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > > >

> > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > >

> > > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > > >

> > > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > > >

> > >

> > > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> > >

> > > Priceless.

> >

> > Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

>

> So they should have called you in person..?

>

> This is more fun than a circus!!

LOL Mr Bean. I know you're just being silly. However I'd like to hear from at least one person here whom participated in a focus group. Heck I'd have to randomly select 333 handicap holders to find 1 person that actually completed the survey.

HitEmTrue · June 3, 2019

Now that i> @davep043 said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > < tested another word/name...this post is deleted now >

> >

>

> I really don't mind not being able to use the names of political figures in these forums. Things become contentious enough when we're just talking about rules, politics would only make it worse.

Yes, politics causes problems. But when the person's name is a common english word, it complicates matters. A few years ago what would we do if we are trying to take an unplayable lie from a ball that is sitting in a bush...

SheriffBooth · June 3, 2019

Posts containing the President's name don't get deleted. They go to a Moderator queue for review, and when approved they get posted. Agreed that it's not perfect, and it's one of many features of the new forum software that's under review. But for now posts that involve the political figure will not get approved, and posts that are using the word in its common noun or verb form will eventually be approved, just not immediately.

Mr. Bean · June 3, 2019

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > >

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or do you ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > > > >

> > > > > Lets break that down:

> > > > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > > > >

> > > > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > > > >

> > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > >

> > > > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> > > >

> > > > Priceless.

> > >

> > > Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

> >

> > So they should have called you in person..?

> >

> > This is more fun than a circus!!

>

> LOL Mr Bean. I know you're just being silly. However I'd like to hear from at least one person here whom participated in a focus group. Heck I'd have to randomly select 333 handicap holders to find 1 person that actually completed the survey.

Just to continue the circus...

How many times the congressman you voted for has called you to ask for your opinion?

HatsForBats · June 3, 2019

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> Back on the topic of divots, this is an interesting (I thought) story regarding that.

>

> Back when I was involved with our MGA and Handicap Committee I got involved in a discussion regarding the upcoming MGA Match Play event which was in the spring. We had been playing 'winter rules' and things were just barely beginning to green up (bermuda, no over-seeding, in NC). The fairways here by spring are beaten down (by carts) to 'bare carpet'-like turf. The lies are fine for low handicappers but the older, higher handicap golfers had trouble, particularly hitting longer clubs off the deck. The truth is that LCP did little to help, but seemed helpful.

>

> So we were going to play it down except that a concern was raised over a couple of areas where lots of balls end up that had 6 months of unhealed, maybe filled or maybe not, divots. So one morning I went out to one of the worst areas where golfers typically hit wedges for their 3rd shot (par 5 at the bottom of a hill). I took 30 golf balls and I just tossed them around and counted how many ended up in divots. I was quite surprised at how rare that was even in this area of MANY divots. I don't recall the numbers (it was maybe 13 years ago), but it was an interesting experiment. We were considering LCP on just a couple holes, but we played it down everywhere.

>

> dave

The way I see it is the fact that it doesn't happen frequently makes the impact on that particular event that much more significant as the unlucky player that ends up in a fairway is likely the only player to do so during that event (of course depending on number of rounds played in the event).

A hypothetical question comes to my mind. If I had been playing in a club championship for 25 years, coming close on more than a few occasions, but never wining the event. If it came down to the last hole of the event, I was tied with the player I dislike the most in my club, we both hit drives into the same area of the fairway but their ball ends up in a divot and mine does not. Forgetting, for just a moment, about the 'issue' of defining a divot would I feel the game of golf would be a better game if this player, that I disliked the most, was allowed relief in the same general area as where their tee shot stopped in the fairway? I don't think anyone can convince me that the game of golf is a better game with them not being allowed relief.

HitEmTrue · June 3, 2019

> @SheriffBooth said:

> Posts containing the President's name don't get deleted. They go to a Moderator queue for review, and when approved they get posted. Agreed that it's not perfect, and it's one of many features of the new forum software that's under review. But for now posts that involve the political figure will not get approved, and posts that are using the word in its common noun or verb form will eventually be approved, just not immediately.

Oops...sorry, if I'd known that, I wouldn't have experimented. Maybe a message should appear to that effect, rather than the system appearing to be unresponsive.

Thanks for the info.

ThinkingPlus · June 3, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Back on the topic of divots, this is an interesting (I thought) story regarding that.

> >

> > Back when I was involved with our MGA and Handicap Committee I got involved in a discussion regarding the upcoming MGA Match Play event which was in the spring. We had been playing 'winter rules' and things were just barely beginning to green up (bermuda, no over-seeding, in NC). The fairways here by spring are beaten down (by carts) to 'bare carpet'-like turf. The lies are fine for low handicappers but the older, higher handicap golfers had trouble, particularly hitting longer clubs off the deck. The truth is that LCP did little to help, but seemed helpful.

> >

> > So we were going to play it down except that a concern was raised over a couple of areas where lots of balls end up that had 6 months of unhealed, maybe filled or maybe not, divots. So one morning I went out to one of the worst areas where golfers typically hit wedges for their 3rd shot (par 5 at the bottom of a hill). I took 30 golf balls and I just tossed them around and counted how many ended up in divots. I was quite surprised at how rare that was even in this area of MANY divots. I don't recall the numbers (it was maybe 13 years ago), but it was an interesting experiment. We were considering LCP on just a couple holes, but we played it down everywhere.

> >

> > dave

>

> The way I see it is the fact that it doesn't happen frequently makes the impact on that particular event that much more significant as the unlucky player that ends up in a fairway is likely the only player to do so during that event (of course depending on number of rounds played in the event).

>

> A hypothetical question comes to my mind. If I had been playing in a club championship for 25 years, coming close on more than a few occasions, but never wining the event. If it came down to the last hole of the event, I was tied with the player I dislike the most in my club, we both hit drives into the same area of the fairway but their ball ends up in a divot and mine does not. Forgetting, for just a moment, about the 'issue' of defining a divot would I feel the game of golf would be a better game if this player, that I disliked the most, was allowed relief in the same general area as where their tee shot stopped in the fairway? I don't think anyone can convince me that the game of golf is a better game with them not being allowed relief.

>

It is neither a better game nor a worse game. It is the game of golf.

Mr. Bean · June 3, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Back on the topic of divots, this is an interesting (I thought) story regarding that.

> >

> > Back when I was involved with our MGA and Handicap Committee I got involved in a discussion regarding the upcoming MGA Match Play event which was in the spring. We had been playing 'winter rules' and things were just barely beginning to green up (bermuda, no over-seeding, in NC). The fairways here by spring are beaten down (by carts) to 'bare carpet'-like turf. The lies are fine for low handicappers but the older, higher handicap golfers had trouble, particularly hitting longer clubs off the deck. The truth is that LCP did little to help, but seemed helpful.

> >

> > So we were going to play it down except that a concern was raised over a couple of areas where lots of balls end up that had 6 months of unhealed, maybe filled or maybe not, divots. So one morning I went out to one of the worst areas where golfers typically hit wedges for their 3rd shot (par 5 at the bottom of a hill). I took 30 golf balls and I just tossed them around and counted how many ended up in divots. I was quite surprised at how rare that was even in this area of MANY divots. I don't recall the numbers (it was maybe 13 years ago), but it was an interesting experiment. We were considering LCP on just a couple holes, but we played it down everywhere.

> >

> > dave

>

> The way I see it is the fact that it doesn't happen frequently makes the impact on that particular event that much more significant as the unlucky player that ends up in a fairway is likely the only player to do so during that event (of course depending on number of rounds played in the event).

Geezz... honestly, Batman, do you really think that this divot thing with all its odds is the ONLY thing creating situations where luck is involved?!?!? Every single round I play there are MANY bounces that are either lucky or unlucky, depending how one chooses to look at them.

Just grow up to match the level of this game and stop whining, honestly!!

BlackDiamondPar5 · June 3, 2019

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Or do you ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > > > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lets break that down:

> > > > > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > > > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> > > > >

> > > > > Priceless.

> > > >

> > > > Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

> > >

> > > So they should have called you in person..?

> > >

> > > This is more fun than a circus!!

> >

> > LOL Mr Bean. I know you're just being silly. However I'd like to hear from at least one person here whom participated in a focus group. Heck I'd have to randomly select 333 handicap holders to find 1 person that actually completed the survey.

>

> Just to continue the circus...

>

> How many times the congressman you voted for has called you to ask for your opinion?

That's a nonsequitur. Obviously you're more interested in acting like a clown.

Shilgy · June 3, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > >

> > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > >

> > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > >

> > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > >

> > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> >

> > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

>

> I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

>

> Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

>

> I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

>

> Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

>

> I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

>

> He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

>

> Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

>

> Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

" the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

it is all a matter of perspective.

bladehunter · June 3, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > > >

> > > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > > >

> > > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> > >

> > > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

> >

> > I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

> >

> > Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

> >

> > I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

> >

> > Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

> >

> > I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

> >

> > He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

> >

> > Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

> >

> > Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

>

> Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

> " the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

>

> it is all a matter of perspective.

Lol. Oh I agree if I ever figure this crap out I might be able to play. I referenced everyone including myself looking like a sandbagger at times . I’ve been called one. To my face. But nobody has ever been able to find a score i haven’t posted. Even 9 hole scores on wed evening. I play it down with a couple others who do too and I’ll post it.

Put it this way. I’m averaging 12.2 greens a round as of today. With several 14-16 green rounds. Don’t recall last time I hit less than 10. But also still averaging 33 putts a round. And shooting around par with 31-32 putts . Putter is heating up as of last week. My caps coming down this summer. All it will take are some more 1 putts.

Mr. Bean · June 3, 2019

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Or do you ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > > > > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lets break that down:

> > > > > > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > > > > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Priceless.

> > > > >

> > > > > Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

> > > >

> > > > So they should have called you in person..?

> > > >

> > > > This is more fun than a circus!!

> > >

> > > LOL Mr Bean. I know you're just being silly. However I'd like to hear from at least one person here whom participated in a focus group. Heck I'd have to randomly select 333 handicap holders to find 1 person that actually completed the survey.

> >

> > Just to continue the circus...

> >

> > How many times the congressman you voted for has called you to ask for your opinion?

> That's a nonsequitur. Obviously you're more interested in acting like a clown.

I think we all know who is the clown...

Btw, it is non sequitur, i.e. two words. At least in English language.

bladehunter · June 3, 2019

Don’t make me turn this car around !

nsxguy · June 4, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > > >

> > > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > > >

> > > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> > >

> > > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

> >

> > I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

> >

> > Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

> >

> > I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

> >

> > Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

> >

> > I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

> >

> > He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

> >

> > Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

> >

> > Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

>

> Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

> " the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

>

> it is all a matter of perspective.

Only on wrx could a poster learn that handicaps are to make matches as fair as possible, the "ideal" would be for the match to be tied at the end of 18 and THEN he shows up and complains about the guy that just beat him is a sandbagger,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when the match was tied after 18.

Too funny,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

bladehunter · June 4, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > > > >

> > > > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > > > >

> > > > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> > > >

> > > > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

> > >

> > > I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

> > >

> > > Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

> > >

> > > I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

> > >

> > > Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

> > >

> > > I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

> > >

> > > He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

> > >

> > > Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

> > >

> > > Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

> >

> > Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

> > " the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

> >

> > it is all a matter of perspective.

>

> Only on wrx could a poster learn that handicaps are to make matches as fair as possible, the "ideal" would be for the match to be tied at the end of 18 and THEN he shows up and complains about the guy that just beat him is a sandbagger,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when the match was tied after 18.

>

> Too funny,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

You missed the point. The guy tied me while getting 8 shots and only actually used 1. Surely that math isn’t hard to do. Now I said it was a good match and all was well . I wasn’t on a rant etc. but. You can’t act like the system worked. In reality we played a nearly heads up even match. The system would have beat me 4 and 5 had I not went on a birdie run.

nsxguy · June 4, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> > > > >

> > > > > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

> > > >

> > > > I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

> > > >

> > > > Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

> > > >

> > > > I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

> > > >

> > > > Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

> > > >

> > > > I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

> > > >

> > > > He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

> > > >

> > > > Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

> > >

> > > Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

> > > " the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

> > >

> > > it is all a matter of perspective.

> >

> > Only on wrx could a poster learn that handicaps are to make matches as fair as possible, the "ideal" would be for the match to be tied at the end of 18 and THEN he shows up and complains about the guy that just beat him is a sandbagger,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when the match was tied after 18.

> >

> > Too funny,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

>

> You missed the point. The guy tied me while getting 8 shots and only actually used 1. Surely that math isn’t hard to do. Now I said it was a good match and all was well . I wasn’t on a rant etc. but. You can’t act like the system worked. In reality we played a nearly heads up even match. The system would have beat me 4 and 5 had I not went on a birdie run.

I didn't miss anything. I will admit however, that 75, getting 8 vs 72 indicates an unusual # of "2 (or more) shot swing" holes, which IS a bit unusual and which begs the question of why there were so many 2 shotters. Didn't one or the other of you pick up after the other guy obviously won the hole ?

But the system worked. You 2 tied the match. That's the way it's supposed to work.

RickK · June 4, 2019

Back on the topic this started out to be....Ruling bodies got this one right. A divot that has not been repaired...easy to spot. A divot that someone make an attempt to repair either by replacing the divot (which never lives in this part of the world) or they dumped some sand in it..fairly easy to spot. But, a bare spot or slight indentation...was it a divot originally...maybe or maybe not. I have played with guys in tournaments who think they are entitled to relief from every imperfection anywhere and try to come up with some reason why it is abnormal ground conditions. Suck it up, hit the shot, move on.

But then, I am not even an fan of playing lift, clean and place (or replace). Embedded ball rule is ok. The ROG cover casual water and you get relief. Mud on balls, happens even when you are not playing lift, clean and place and you just have to hit the shot and move on. But, that was not the topic here.

nsxguy · June 4, 2019

> @RickKimbrell said:

> Back on the topic this started out to be....Ruling bodies got this one right. A divot that has not been repaired...easy to spot. A divot that someone make an attempt to repair either by replacing the divot (which never lives in this part of the world) or they dumped some sand in it..fairly easy to spot. But, a bare spot or slight indentation...was it a divot originally...maybe or maybe not. I have played with guys in tournaments who think they are entitled to relief from every imperfection anywhere and try to come up with some reason why it is abnormal ground conditions. Suck it up, hit the shot, move on.

> But then, I am not even an fan of playing lift, clean and place (or replace). Embedded ball rule is ok. The ROG cover casual water and you get relief. **Mud on balls, happens even when you are not playing lift, clean and place and you just have to hit the shot and move on.** But, that was not the topic here.

Actually you bring up a very interesting point. Mud on the ball. What's fair about 2 drives being pretty much in the exact same area of the fairway but one has a glob of mud on it but the other ball is clean ? That's not very fair (either), is it ?

I wonder if the 3 gentlemen so supportive of free relief from divots, wanting things to be "fair" of course, think the player with the mud on the ball should be allowed to clean it. I mean they DO want things to be fair, no ?

bladehunter · June 4, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > > > > > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

> > > > >

> > > > > Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

> > > > >

> > > > > Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

> > > > >

> > > > > I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

> > > > >

> > > > > He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

> > > > >

> > > > > Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the **** committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

> > > >

> > > > Somewhere he is posting about the should be +3 or better that he barely beat in a match.

> > > > " the guy makes a couple doubles on the front that didn't matter because I stroked on those holes and he threw a tidy 32 at me with 4 birdies when the chips were down-1 handicap my a**!"

> > > >

> > > > it is all a matter of perspective.

> > >

> > > Only on wrx could a poster learn that handicaps are to make matches as fair as possible, the "ideal" would be for the match to be tied at the end of 18 and THEN he shows up and complains about the guy that just beat him is a sandbagger,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when the match was tied after 18.

> > >

> > > Too funny,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

> >

> > You missed the point. The guy tied me while getting 8 shots and only actually used 1. Surely that math isn’t hard to do. Now I said it was a good match and all was well . I wasn’t on a rant etc. but. You can’t act like the system worked. In reality we played a nearly heads up even match. The system would have beat me 4 and 5 had I not went on a birdie run.

>

> I didn't miss anything. I will admit however, that 75, getting 8 vs 72 indicates an unusual # of "2 (or more) shot swing" holes, which IS a bit unusual and which begs the question of why there were so many 2 shotters. Didn't one or the other of you pick up after the other guy obviously won the hole ?

>

> But the system worked. You 2 tied the match. That's the way it's supposed to work.

We both putted everything out as we also played in the dogfight that morning ( stableford and medal winner) which requires you to play it down and putt out. There were zero conceded putts in this match.

Vindog · June 4, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> A hypothetical question comes to my mind. If I had been playing in a club championship for 25 years, coming close on more than a few occasions, but never wining the event. If it came down to the last hole of the event, I was tied with the player I dislike the most in my club, we both hit drives into the same area of the fairway but their ball ends up in a divot and mine does not. Forgetting, for just a moment, about the 'issue' of defining a divot would I feel the game of golf would be a better game if this player, that I disliked the most, was allowed relief in the same general area as where their tee shot stopped in the fairway? I don't think anyone can convince me that the game of golf is a better game with them not being allowed relief.

>

I can't speak to being able to convince you of such, but the game would certainly be worse by letting that kind of thing happen . People would want relief...just because. It's already happening, and to allow this type of relief would encourage that type of entitlement and further reduce the expectations and responsibilities of the player(s).

What we would be creating wouldn't be"fair" or "equitable." It would be more along the lines of pampering.

davep043 · June 4, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> A hypothetical question comes to my mind. If I had been playing in a club championship for 25 years, coming close on more than a few occasions, but never wining the event. If it came down to the last hole of the event, I was tied with the player I dislike the most in my club, we both hit drives into the same area of the fairway but their ball ends up in a divot and mine does not. Forgetting, for just a moment, about the 'issue' of defining a divot would I feel the game of golf would be a better game if this player, that I disliked the most, was allowed relief in the same general area as where their tee shot stopped in the fairway? I don't think anyone can convince me that the game of golf is a better game with them not being allowed relief.

>

I have said in the past "That's a bad break, but I'm sure you can handle it". I've said it to my opponent, and I've said it to myself. I never felt guilty when it was my opponent, I never felt like I'd been shafted when it was me. I've said it when it was a divot hole causing it, when one of us got a bad bounce in the fairway, when there was mud on the ball. Its just golf, as it should be.

Sawgrass · June 4, 2019

I sunk a 40' putt for par to halve the 9th hole in my Club Championship match a week ago. I should have conceded the next hole since randomly sinking such a long putt was clearly not "fair."

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So really...re: divots...

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