So really...re: divots...

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > Why don't the "divot relief guys" just play the way their committee (group of buddies) decides for divot relief and move on with it. If they want divot relief then do it within your group of buddies. As for impact on handicap it's nil since it happens so rarely. As for tournaments, when you and your buddies aren't the committee, why not just be prepared and go to the range and practice hitting out of divots. PROBLEM SOLVED!

> > >

> > > Comparing relief from sprinkler heads, cart paths, rakes is just plain apples vs oranges.

> >

> > Of course you already realize that would not solve the problem.

> >

> > How about this?

> >

> > An otpional rule that allows the comittee to allow relief from fairway divots without penalty. As many "no divot relief gals" have mentioned the impact on handicaps would be insignificant. Then if you found yourself in an event where the comittee decided to use the optional rule you could still play out of a divot if you end up in one. PROBLEM SOLVED.

>

> OMG! Why didn't someone at the USGA/R&A think of coming up with Local Rule E-3? Oh wait, they did. A long, long time ago.

>

> Of course, the "purpose" of the LR isn't to give divot hole relief, but in practice it does. So, if a Committee can see its way clear to instituting the LR, the divot hole whiners get their way. The problem isn't that it's hard to address the divot hole issue, the problem is that it shouldn't be addressed.

 

Nope. You already know that gives relief from more than what we are discussing. It also allows for placement of the ball which I would not be for.

[HatsForBats]

> @Vindog said:

> > @MooJersey said:

> > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

>

> As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

 

 

[Mikey5e]

> @rogolf said:

> I have no idea why this discussion is continuing. It's certainly run its course and is no longer relevant, imo. It's the same old, same old..... if we leave it alone it will likely reappear in another six months.

 

But yet you're here commenting?

[davep043]

In case we've forgotten, hitting the fairway generally provides an unobstructed shot towards a green, and a better angle into it. Its not like a divot hole robs a player of ALL of the advantages derived from hitting a good tee shot.

[caniac6]

There is no relief from divots. If you don't like it, tough. Buy a bowling ball.

[Shilgy]

> @davep043 said:

> In case we've forgotten, hitting the fairway generally provides an unobstructed shot towards a green, and a better angle into it. Its not like a divot hole robs a player of ALL of the advantages derived from hitting a good tee shot.

 

Generally true. But here we are on page 12 and no one in the free relief camp has identified when a divot hole no longer exists. They use various excuses for why relief should be granted but it makes you wonder if they also want to move the ball because:

- they hit the drive in the fairway but have a tree obstructing their next shot

- they hit a drive in the fairway but have a loose impediment inhibiting a clean strike on the ball and to remove the impediment the ball would move.

- -they hit the ball in the area but their lie is on soggy turf(not temporary water) or thin turf, or hard pan, or long grass missed by the mower.

- - and so on..........

[Argonne69]

> @MooJersey said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @MooJersey said:

> > > I think if you hit the fairway, you should get a fair lie. Personally after getting the ball where it needs to be, it seems a little penal to have to dig the ball out of a crater.

> >

> > So if you're on the side of a hill, or on a downslope, in the fairway, you should be allowed to moved the ball as far as necessary to get a flat lie?

> >

> No. I just think in general, if a golfer hits the correct area of play, i.e. the fairway he has accomplished something and should be rewarded for doing so. Hitting a great shot, to then have to dig a ball sitting down at its equator, doesn't strike me as being in the spirit of the game.

 

Funny, I thought the spirit of the game was to play it as it lies, accepting good and bad luck. Are you of the opinion that a ball in the rough should be pressed down to give the worst possible lie? I mean, if you really believe the point of hitting the fairway is a good lie, then obviously the point of missing the fairway should be a bad lie.

 

[Argonne69]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @MooJersey said:

> > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> >

> > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

>

>

>

 

Shorter grass, or short of grass?

 


 

[Roadking2003]

> @Shilgy said:

> Generally true. But here we are on page 12 and no one in the free relief camp has identified when a divot hole no longer exists.

You are too hung up on defining a divot.

 

There is no need to define it. Just move your ball 3 inches. Problem solved. The integrity of the game is preserved as much as it has been recently.

 

Or, treat it like we do pitch marks on the green. Nobody has to define a pitch mark. You get to repair it regardless of what it looks like. Nobody argues over pitch marks on the green.

[HatsForBats]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > >

> > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> >

> >

> >

>

> Shorter grass, or short of grass?

>

> 

>

 

How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

[sui generis]

16.3a2 Determining Whether Ball Is Embedded. A player’s ball is embedded only if:

 

It is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke, and

Part of the ball is below the level of the ground.

 

If the player cannot tell for sure whether the ball is in its own pitch-mark or a pitch-mark made by another ball, the player may treat the ball as embedded if it is reasonable to conclude from the available information that the ball is in its own pitch-mark.

 

A ball is not embedded if it is below the level of the ground as a result of anything other than the player’s previous stroke, such as when:

 

The ball is pushed into the ground by someone stepping on it,

The ball is driven straight into the ground without becoming airborne, or

The ball was dropped in taking relief under a Rule.

[Argonne69]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > >

> > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> >

> > 

> >

>

> How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

 

Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> In case we've forgotten, hitting the fairway generally provides an unobstructed shot towards a green, and a better angle into it. Its not like a divot hole robs a player of ALL of the advantages derived from hitting a good tee shot.

 

But it does rob them of some of the advantages. If we try to apply that way of thinking to other things where you are allowed relief does it stand up? Ie. cart patch splitting the fairway. Why allow relief there or any cart path? It's not like a cart path robs a player of ALL of the disadvantages of being in the same relative location. An unplayable lie could always be taken if the player didn't want to hit off the path.

[HatsForBats]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @MooJersey said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > I think if you hit the fairway, you should get a fair lie. Personally after getting the ball where it needs to be, it seems a little penal to have to dig the ball out of a crater.

> > >

> > > So if you're on the side of a hill, or on a downslope, in the fairway, you should be allowed to moved the ball as far as necessary to get a flat lie?

> > >

> > No. I just think in general, if a golfer hits the correct area of play, i.e. the fairway he has accomplished something and should be rewarded for doing so. Hitting a great shot, to then have to dig a ball sitting down at its equator, doesn't strike me as being in the spirit of the game.

>

> Funny, I thought the spirit of the game was to play it as it lies, accepting good and bad luck. Are you of the opinion that a ball in the rough should be pressed down to give the worst possible lie? I mean, if you really believe the point of hitting the fairway is a good lie, then obviously the point of missing the fairway should be a bad lie.

>

 

If that is the spirit of the game then why do you get relief from a cart patch or embedded ball? Why are you not advocating for 'play it as it lies' everywhere?

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > In case we've forgotten, hitting the fairway generally provides an unobstructed shot towards a green, and a better angle into it. Its not like a divot hole robs a player of ALL of the advantages derived from hitting a good tee shot.

>

> But it does rob them of some of the advantages. If we try to apply that way of thinking to other things where you are allowed relief does it stand up? Ie. cart patch splitting the fairway. Why allow relief there or any cart path? It's not like a cart path robs a player of ALL of the disadvantages of being in the same relative location. An unplayable lie could always be taken if the player didn't want to hit off the path.

 

Its been said dozens of times here, we can pretty clearly define a cart path, or an obstruction. You've been unable to come up with a satisfactory definition of a divot hole. When you do, come back and we can discuss it. Until then.....

[HatsForBats]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > > >

> > > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

>

> Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

 

We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.

 

As for your last picture it is kinda of hard to give an opinion from that camera angle. Hence my referring to needing a better look at it. The pictures you posted earlier were all divots IMO.

[Argonne69]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

> >

> > Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

>

> We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.

>

> As for your last picture it is kinda of hard to give an opinion from that camera angle. Hence my referring to needing a better look at it. The pictures you posted earlier were all divots IMO.

 

You're asking for **_relief_** from a divot hole, not whether you can repair a divot hole. Repairing a ball mark is not improving your lie. You can repair as many as you want. You can repair as many divot holes as you want, too, as long as your ball is not sitting in it.

[davep043]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> > > > >

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

> > >

> > > Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

> >

> > We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.

> >

> > As for your last picture it is kinda of hard to give an opinion from that camera angle. Hence my referring to needing a better look at it. The pictures you posted earlier were all divots IMO.

>

> You're asking for **_relief_** from a divot hole, not whether you can repair a divot hole. Repairing a ball mark is not improving your lie. You can repair as many as you want. You can repair as many divot holes as you want, too, as long as your ball is not sitting in it.

 

8.1a and Interpretations do limit how and when you can repair divot holes. Also to note, the same limitations apply to repair of pitch marks in the general area. Surprisingly, you don't get relief from a random pitchmark in the general, as Mr. Kuchar found out. The putting green, of course, is a special place.

[Shilgy]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > Generally true. But here we are on page 12 and no one in the free relief camp has identified when a divot hole no longer exists.

> You are too hung up on defining a divot.

>

> There is no need to define it. Just move your ball 3 inches. Problem solved. The integrity of the game is preserved as much as it has been recently.

>

> Or, treat it like we do pitch marks on the green. Nobody has to define a pitch mark. You get to repair it regardless of what it looks like. Nobody argues over pitch marks on the green.

 

So you endorse playing LCP all the time in the short grass? As you are aware the green has for years had different rules.

 

And when it mattered if it was a pitch mark or not on the green people argued about whether it was a pitch mark all the time. Just this year you can repair whether it is or not.

[MooJersey]

I think they should make the fairway a defined special place. Lift, clean and place within 1 foot anywhere in the fairway. Problem solved. :D

[HatsForBats]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> > > > >

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

> > >

> > > Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

> >

> > We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.

> >

> > As for your last picture it is kinda of hard to give an opinion from that camera angle. Hence my referring to needing a better look at it. The pictures you posted earlier were all divots IMO.

>

> You're asking for **_relief_** from a divot hole, not whether you can repair a divot hole. Repairing a ball mark is not improving your lie. You can repair as many as you want. You can repair as many divot holes as you want, too, as long as your ball is not sitting in it.

 

My resposne of 'We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.' was in response to your previous post of 'The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.' It had nothing to do with relief or repair and everything to do with defining, or in this case not defining, a divot.

[Roadking2003]

> @Shilgy said:

> So you endorse playing LCP all the time in the short grass?

Yep, Just like on the green.

> As you are aware the green has for years had different rules.

Yes, I'm very aware of the rules and have a decent knowledge of rules history. If they can make special rules for greens they can make special rules for fairways.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > Generally true. But here we are on page 12 and no one in the free relief camp has identified when a divot hole no longer exists.

> > You are too hung up on defining a divot.

> >

> > There is no need to define it. Just move your ball 3 inches. Problem solved. The integrity of the game is preserved as much as it has been recently.

> >

> > Or, treat it like we do pitch marks on the green. Nobody has to define a pitch mark. You get to repair it regardless of what it looks like. Nobody argues over pitch marks on the green.

>

> So you endorse playing LCP all the time in the short grass? As you are aware the green has for years had different rules.

>

> And when it mattered if it was a pitch mark or not on the green people argued about whether it was a pitch mark all the time. Just this year you can repair whether it is or not.

 

I would think they were talking about when in a divot not all the time. I don't think anyone is arguing against a drop rather than a placing of the ball.

 

Your defintion of argue and all the time are much differnt than mine. I don't recall it being much of an issue at all. I do remember Tiger saying he may have missed a putt due to a mark he couldn't fix and after the round Johnny Miller supposedly went out to confirm if Tiger was telling the truth about the unfixable area he had to putt through.

 

edit: almost forgot to add that areas of grass mowed at fairway height or less were given special treatment, correct?

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > In case we've forgotten, hitting the fairway generally provides an unobstructed shot towards a green, and a better angle into it. Its not like a divot hole robs a player of ALL of the advantages derived from hitting a good tee shot.

> >

> > But it does rob them of some of the advantages. If we try to apply that way of thinking to other things where you are allowed relief does it stand up? Ie. cart patch splitting the fairway. Why allow relief there or any cart path? It's not like a cart path robs a player of ALL of the disadvantages of being in the same relative location. An unplayable lie could always be taken if the player didn't want to hit off the path.

>

> Its been said dozens of times here, we can pretty clearly define a cart path, or an obstruction. You've been unable to come up with a satisfactory definition of a divot hole. When you do, come back and we can discuss it. Until then.....

 

As stated previously there is a clear precedent of damage caused to a playing surface by another players equipment not being defined (**YOU** confirmed). Given that then a fairway divot clearly does not **have** to be defined.

[HitEmTrue]

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> I would think they were talking about when in a divot not all the time. I don't think anyone is arguing against a drop rather than a placing of the ball.

>

 

Roadking thinks it should be pick-it-up-and-put-it-somewhere-else every time...he's not the only person who has proposed that. The other day I thought that was what you were asking for, and it's clear now that you would expect to drop.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > @MooJersey said:

> > > > > > > > The point of hitting the fairway is to have a nice lie. Can WRX agree on that ? :#

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As far as I know, the point of hitting the fairway is to find shorter grass...

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Shorter grass, or short of grass?

> > > > >

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How do you tell if a ball is embedded if you are not 100% certain?

> > >

> > > Are you ever going to answer the question? The lot of you are purposely refusing to define a divot. 'Can't add a rule if you can't write it.

> >

> > We are back to how was a ball mark on the green was defined last year. According to Dave it was not.

> >

> > As for your last picture it is kinda of hard to give an opinion from that camera angle. Hence my referring to needing a better look at it. The pictures you posted earlier were all divots IMO.

>

> You're asking for **_relief_** from a divot hole, not whether you can repair a divot hole. Repairing a ball mark is not improving your lie. You can repair as many as you want. You can repair as many divot holes as you want, too, as long as your ball is not sitting in it.

 

That depends of your next stroke. If repairing a divot hole may affect your next stroke you are not allowed to repair it. This could occur for example when putting or chipping from outside the green and the divot hole is on the line of play.

[davep043]

After seeing Mr. Kuchar yesterday, is anyone advocating that relief should be allowed from ANY pitchmark in the general area? Or that repair of divot holes and/or pitchmarks should be allowed, whether they improve the player's line of play or not? It seems the logical next step.

[caniac6]

> @MooJersey said:

> I think they should make the fairway a defined special place. Lift, clean and place within 1 foot anywhere in the fairway. Problem solved. :D

 

This is a joke, right? Why not just tee it up? It's golf. you get good breaks, and you get bad breaks. Just hit the ball, and quit complaining. I can't believe there are this many cry babies playing this great game. Move the ball to a good lie, and collect your trophy at the end of the round.

[Mr. Bean]

> @caniac6 said:

> > @MooJersey said:

> > I think they should make the fairway a defined special place. Lift, clean and place within 1 foot anywhere in the fairway. Problem solved. :D

>

> This is a joke, right? Why not just tee it up? It's golf. you get good breaks, and you get bad breaks. Just hit the ball, and quit complaining. I can't believe there are this many cry babies playing this great game. Move the ball to a good lie, and collect your trophy at the end of the round.

 

And the next step is that these guys wand the same LCP in rough as well because they are entitled to a premium rough lie and there just might be divot holes in the rough, too. Just ridiculous, IMHO.

[Vindog]

 

 

> @MooJersey said:

> I think they should make the fairway a defined special place. Lift, clean and place within 1 foot anywhere in the fairway. Problem solved. :D

 

Tee it up instead!