So really...re: divots...

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Of course two tournament committees should be able to play two different tournaments on one course on the same day. And each should be allowed to implement their own choice of local rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why on earth not?

> > > >

> > > > For starters, two different committees should not be that far away from each other in evaluating the need of LCP. Otherwise you are of course correct, committees (read: persons) can and do have their own preferences.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ——

> > > One tournament begins at 8:00 with dry weather and no lcp. Heavy rain comes at 10:00, the first tournament ends at 12:30 and the next begins with a wet course, light rain and lcp appropriately instituted.

> > >

> >

> > But Sawgrass, now the conditions are no longer the same...

>

> Correct. But your “same day” irritation was misplaced.

 

Now you lost me. What irritation?

[Mr. Bean]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > Personally I have never understood this 'act as your own committee' stuff. How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

> > >

> > > I hope that will stop with the WHS next year.

> >

> > It seems to me that on your side of the pond the courses themselves, even the public ones, are much more involved in the players and their rounds and there isn't nearly as many 4-somes (or slightly larger groups) simply playing a casual round together. And in some places (Congu-land) those rounds often wouldn't count towards their handicaps anyway.

> >

> > Here in the States I dare say MOST of the golfers are casual players. I've played at 4 different public golf courses so far this year and none of them has even mentioned the new rules, never mind posting anything about whether LCP or LR E-5 should be in force. They collect greens fees and maintain the course. Other than that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> >

> > And those who would like to play by the Rules have to be their own "committee".

>

> True we do play our golf much more independently here in the US. > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > >

> > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > >

> > > > If conditions don't warrant LCP, we are back to cheating again.

> > >

> > > I do not think it's cheating so long as the group all agrees to and plays the same. By definition Cheating requires an unfair advantage over others, which if everyone is in on it then it's not an unfair advantage.

> >

> > But doesn't the group deciding to use LCP get an unfair advantage over another not using it??

>

> Where's the advantage over other guys? Say 4 guys go play Saturday morning and they are only playing against themselves.> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @KyGolf said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > >

> > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > >

> > > > If conditions don't warrant LCP, we are back to cheating again.

> > >

> > > I do not think it's cheating so long as the group all agrees to and plays the same. By definition Cheating requires an unfair advantage over others, which if everyone is in on it then it's not an unfair advantage.

> >

> > But doesn't the group deciding to use LCP get an unfair advantage over another not using it??

>

> The group isn't playing against anyone else. Most golf in the US is played independently of others outside your group. Example my league of 20 guys only compete against others in our league. The other 2 leagues playing that same night have nothing to do with the other, we don't know them nor know what they shoot and don't care. We are likely playing different formats etc. If one league instituted LCP on a particular evening it has zero impact on anyone else.

 

I was referring to handicap rounds. Around here they are played on any course the same day with same Local Rules in force, in your system they are not, apparently.

[Colin L]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

>

>

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > >

> > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > >

> > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > >

> > > No different than instituting LCP.

> >

> > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> >

> > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

>

> True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

 

The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Of course two tournament committees should be able to play two different tournaments on one course on the same day. And each should be allowed to implement their own choice of local rules.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why on earth not?

> > > > >

> > > > > For starters, two different committees should not be that far away from each other in evaluating the need of LCP. Otherwise you are of course correct, committees (read: persons) can and do have their own preferences.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ——

> > > > One tournament begins at 8:00 with dry weather and no lcp. Heavy rain comes at 10:00, the first tournament ends at 12:30 and the next begins with a wet course, light rain and lcp appropriately instituted.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But Sawgrass, now the conditions are no longer the same...

> >

> > Correct. But your “same day” irritation was misplaced.

>

> Now you lost me. What irritation?

 

"How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?"

 

If not irritation, mystification?

[Golfer4Life]

Enjoy the reading?

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/WHS-resources.html

[nsxguy]

> @Golfer4Life said:

> Enjoy the reading?

> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/WHS-resources.html

 

Thanks for your concern but I expect the vast majority of posters reading the forum regularly has already read it. ?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Of course two tournament committees should be able to play two different tournaments on one course on the same day. And each should be allowed to implement their own choice of local rules.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why on earth not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For starters, two different committees should not be that far away from each other in evaluating the need of LCP. Otherwise you are of course correct, committees (read: persons) can and do have their own preferences.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ——

> > > > > One tournament begins at 8:00 with dry weather and no lcp. Heavy rain comes at 10:00, the first tournament ends at 12:30 and the next begins with a wet course, light rain and lcp appropriately instituted.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But Sawgrass, now the conditions are no longer the same...

> > >

> > > Correct. But your “same day” irritation was misplaced.

> >

> > Now you lost me. What irritation?

>

> "How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?"

>

> If not irritation, mystification?

 

Wondering..?

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> Personally I have never understood this 'act as your own committee' stuff. How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

>

> I hope that will stop with the WHS next year.

 

Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but it could because there were two separate events being held on the same course on the same day with 2 different committees who came to different conclusions about something or the other. Or maybe conditions changed between the 'morning event' and the 'afternoon event'.

 

That thought does not raise my eyebrows.

 

dave

 

ps. Oops - looks like that point has already been made.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Of course two tournament committees should be able to play two different tournaments on one course on the same day. And each should be allowed to implement their own choice of local rules.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why on earth not?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For starters, two different committees should not be that far away from each other in evaluating the need of LCP. Otherwise you are of course correct, committees (read: persons) can and do have their own preferences.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ——

> > > > > > One tournament begins at 8:00 with dry weather and no lcp. Heavy rain comes at 10:00, the first tournament ends at 12:30 and the next begins with a wet course, light rain and lcp appropriately instituted.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But Sawgrass, now the conditions are no longer the same...

> > > >

> > > > Correct. But your “same day” irritation was misplaced.

> > >

> > > Now you lost me. What irritation?

> >

> > "How can it be that two groups play the same course on the same day under the same conditions but under different Rules?"

> >

> > If not irritation, mystification?

>

> Wondering..?

 

Allow me to provide a real example, and this is pretty typical golf in the USA. I play in a weekly 9 hole league after work at a public course and have done so for many years. There are two other leagues that play this same course the same evening. There is absolutely no relationship between any of the leagues. We don't know who they are and they don't know us. The leadership and league committees are separate. The management at the course has no engagement with any league on its format and what local rules to play. It's 100% up to each league. It's a virtual guarantee that none of the three leagues play the same format nor local rules. While the course management may occasionally say to keep the carts off fairways or 90 degree rule I've never seen them say LCP. I've never seen them mark ground under repair. Even this year, the wettest we've seen in North Eastern US in many years the course doesn't say LCP but it has rules limiting where carts can go. Being the wettest season in decades our league has played LCP every week thus far while some years we may only have LCP a couple times a season. Our league has no idea of whether the other league plays LCP or any rules they may have. We have no idea if they play to USGA rules or have their own modifications. Also typical for US after work leagues, we keep our own handicap systems in addition to some guys carrying a GHIN handicap.

 

Anyway, that is a long winded explanation of how multiple groups can play the same course, same time of day, under different rules. Yes we play from divots, but it happens so infrequently no one has ever complained about it.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> >

> >

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > >

> > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > >

> > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > >

> > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > >

> > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> >

> > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

>

> The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

 

Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

[Golfer4Life]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > >

> > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > >

> > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > >

> > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > >

> > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> >

> > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

>

> Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

 

I posted the link earlier. I have read it twice and my head still spinning.

[KyGolf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @KyGolf said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > >

> > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > >

> > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > >

> > > No different than instituting LCP.

> >

> > If conditions don't warrant LCP, we are back to cheating again.

>

> Cheating isn’t compulsory

 

?????

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > >

> > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > >

> > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > >

> > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > >

> > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> >

> > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

>

> Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

 

Somebody must have "requested" it.

 

Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

 

Or do you ?

 

I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > >

> > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > >

> > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> >

> > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

>

> Somebody must have "requested" it.

>

> Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

>

> Or do you ?

>

> I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

_6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

 

Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

 

Lets break that down:

- 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

 

- Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

 

- How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

 

 

Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

_4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

 

It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > >

> > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > >

> > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > >

> > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> >

> > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> >

> > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> >

> > Or do you ?

> >

> > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

>

> Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

>

> Lets break that down:

> - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

>

> - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

>

> - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

>

>

> Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

>

> It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

>

>

>

 

Fair enough but i would think right up top, at #1, would cover who had input into the idea.

 

1. What is the World Handicap System (WHS) all about?

 

**Golf already has a single set of playing Rules, a single set of equipment Rules and a single set of Rules of Amateur Status overseen by the USGA and The R&A. Yet, today there are six different handicap systems used around the world**. Each is well developed and successfully provides equity for play locally, but each of the different systems produces slightly differing results. The WHS will unify the six systems into a single system that will:

 

Enable golfers of different ability to play and compete on a fair and equitable basis, in any format, on any course, anywhere around the world;

Be easy to understand and implement, without sacrificing accuracy; and

Meet the varied needs and expectations of golfers, golf clubs and golf authorities all around the world and be adaptable to suit all golfing cultures.

 

**After significant engagement and collaboration with the existing handicapping authorities and other National Associations, it has been agreed that the time is right to bring the different handicapping systems together as a fourth set of Rules, in support of the global game. **

 

In addition, this project has provided an opportunity for the existing handicapping authorities to come together and share their combined experiences to produce a system which is modern and relevant for the way the game is played today around the world.

 

The WHS will encompass both the Rules of Handicapping and the Course Rating System (formerly the USGA Course Rating and Slope System).

 

-------------------------------------------

 

The world is getting smaller every day - this is just one more example of it. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Colin L]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > >

> > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > >

> > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > >

> > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > >

> > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> >

> > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

>

> Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

 

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > >

> > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > >

> > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > >

> > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> >

> > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> >

> > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> >

> > Or do you ?

> >

> > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

>

> Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

>

> Lets break that down:

> - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

>

> - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

>

> - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

>

>

> Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

>

> It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

>

>

>

 

How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

 

Priceless.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > >

> > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > >

> > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> >

> > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

>

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > >

> > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > >

> > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > >

> > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > >

> > > Or do you ?

> > >

> > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> >

> > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> >

> > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> >

> > Lets break that down:

> > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> >

> > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> >

> > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> >

> >

> > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> >

> > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> >

> >

> >

>

> How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

>

> Priceless.

 

Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

[Deceptively Short]

Still can’t understand how you can create ‘a level playing field’ (not a divot related comment despite the thread) whilst using different playing fields on which to base calculations.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Still can’t understand how you can create ‘a level playing field’ (not a divot related comment despite the thread) whilst using different playing fields on which to base calculations.

 

You can't. It will never be a perfect system, even the bowling handicap systems arent perfect.

[Colin L]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > >

> > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > >

> > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > >

> > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> >

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Also as I've said several times--- while not officially in the rules, you and your buddies can act as your own committee and handle divots as you please. So long as done sparingly it will have no adverse impact on your handicap."

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that in USGA handicapping a round that is not played by the Rules can be an acceptable score? The Rules do not allow you to "handle divots as you please."

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No different than instituting LCP.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is indeed different. A Local Rule allowing preferred lies is authorised by the R&A/USGA. There is no authorised Local Rule permitting relief from divots. That is the basic point I was raising, not the question of a group forming its own Committee. No Committee, however formed, can just invent its own local rules and explicitly cannot create one which waives a Rule of Golf.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If USGA handicapping rules currently allow scores to be returned from rounds not played according to the Rules - which I would doubt - the World Handicap System will not.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > True, but there are ways to properly score a hole that aren't played by the rules of golf or skipped all together.

> > > > > > > I agree the world handicap system is a dream by the USGA that has shown itself to be out of touch with the golfing public.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly, a dream that became an unrequested reality. Based on what I've read it will still have a lot of local flavor recognizing that golf competition is handled differently across the world.

> > > >

> > > > Somebody must have "requested" it.

> > > >

> > > > Surely you don't think the USGA, R&A and the other world handicapping bodies collectively said "Hey, we've got nothing better to do. Let's kill some time making an all encompassing worldwide handicapping system".

> > > >

> > > > Or do you ?

> > > >

> > > > I've been to SE Asia 7 times in the last 7 years and have met golfers from all over the globe and often, the after-round talk, especially when someone scored 46 Stableford points (LOL), is of handicaps and how they're arrived at. I can honestly say most who have one system seldom understand the logic or accuracy behind the other ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > >

> > > Here is how the USGA put it in their FAQ

> > > _6. Have you consulted with golfers and golf club administrators about the World Handicap System?

> > >

> > > Yes. We have solicited the opinions of golfers and golf club administrators all around the world via an online survey, to which we received over 52,000 responses. We have also conducted focus group sessions in five markets throughout Europe, the USA and South America. The reaction was overwhelmingly positive; for example, 76% surveyed are supportive, 22% undecided at this stage and only 2% opposed._

> > >

> > > Lets break that down:

> > > - 52,000 responses from around the world doesn't seem like much. There are 2,100,000 GHIN holders alone. Even if the 52,000 responses were from GHIN holders, that's a pathetic 2.5% response rate. Hardly an overwhelming request from GHIN holders.

> > >

> > > - Being "supportive" of something is not the same as saying "we need it"

> > >

> > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > >

> > >

> > > Now putting all my suspicion aside, they also say this. This is encouraging to me.

> > > _4. Will the World Handicap System impact the way the game is played in my country or region?

> > >

> > > It is not our intention to try to force a change on the way that golf is played around the world or to try and remove the variations. The cultural diversity that exists within the game, including different formats of play and degrees of competitiveness, is what makes the sport so universally popular. Through collaboration with National Associations, the goal has been to try to accommodate those cultural differences within a single WHS._

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and **I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. **

> >

> > Priceless.

>

> Based on the extremely weak response rate it's not really priceless. It bolsters my point of their flawed methodology. Did you complete the survey? Did you participate in a focus group?

 

Sorry, but you complain about a lack of consultation, at the same time tell us that you were invited to respond to the consultation in an email which you didn't bother to open in time and then conclude that because of your not bothering the methodology of the consultation is flawed. That's so contradictory, how can we take it seriously?

 

But what, briefly, do you have against a system which will mean that any golfer can have a handicap that will be recognised anywhere in the world, which will allow golfers to enter competitions anywhere in the world and allow them to post scores from anywhere in the world to their home club. Golf is a global game and golfers travel to other countries to play. At the moment if you came to the UK and wanted to enter an open competition at my club, you couldn't because we can't equate a USGA handicap with a CONGU one. Once the WHS is in place, we could welcome you and enjoy your involvement in our event . That seems to me a positive step forward.

[davep043]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

 

> - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

 

Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

>

> > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

>

> Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

 

To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

 

I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> >

> > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> >

> > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

>

> To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

>

> I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

 

But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

@"Colin L"

You're missing the point because you're personalizing it by making it about me. Considering they only received 52,000 responses across the world and there are ~15M with a handicap worldwide, that is a 0.3% response rate. If that seems good to you then we are just going to have to disagree. That's not an adequate sample to drive a sweeping change.

 

Were you part of any focus group or did you participate in any survey? I'd be curious to know how it works.

 

As for being for or against the WHS, as long as the system doesn't impact how people play. The usga mentions the importance of recognizing regional differences as to not change how people play. But I don't think standardization is possible without impacting some groups.

 

As for the need, I just don't see anyone except for the elite of elite with the need to jet across the pond for handicapped golf against those playing under other systems.

 

The development of WHS is using resources to that could otherwise be directed toward efforts that would have a more positive impact.

 

@davep043 I get about 100 or more emails a day across three accounts. I do my best to get to the things that are important and require a response. Things get missed. Given the low response rate it was missed by 99%. I thought it was a standard HC update email that comes out bimonthly. I don't need to read those because I already know my handicap and its trend. You implying that those who didn't respond either don't care or are somehow ignorant about handicaps is really off base.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > >

> > > > - How did they survey GHIN holders? I found that they queried me in 1 email buried within a handicap update email. At least that's what I got and I missed an opportunity to respond to it because I rarely open those. Did they survey all GHIN holders this minimal way? They could have been a lot more in our face about it, even a specific URGENT email for the survey alone if they really wanted input from a wide population. I'm hypothesizing that they only got responses from a select demographic, like those actively involved in their clubs HC committee and club professionals while the vast majority of others missed the survey. I'd like to know more about their focus group sessions. Did you participate in one? Did anybody on this board participate in one? Maybe the USGA only wanted answers from a select demographic that would be more supportive of their agenda?

> > >

> > > Maybe the USGA wanted opinions from people who are actually interested in handicaps and informed about how they work. People who don't care, people who don't read emails about handicaps, those people missed the chance to respond to the survey based on their own choices, but its the fault of the USGA (or CONGU,or one of the other 4 handicap administrations worldwide).

> > > Remember, the USGA didn't do this on their own, the rest of the world's handicap administrations are in it too.

> >

> > To be fair. People like me who get 50 plus emails a day that are pure junk don’t look at them. I go though once a month and delete by skimming and dumping a whole page at a time. If they wanted to reach folks they’d send an email labeled “ USga 2019 rules survey. Please read “ preempted by many public service announcements that the email was coming. If you have a business email account you know what I mean. If you don’t have a publically listed email account you have no idea the amount of crap we get. And you cannot turn a spam filter on to block it. All that does is block everything important that isn’t part of your contacts.

> >

> > I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

>

> But really, prior to your involvement in your club's committee this year, would you have cared about handicaps? Were you aware of how they're calculated, aware of the differences around the world? We're talking about a time period several years back, you were convinced the whole thing was crooked (and still are, at least at your home club). Would you have cared enough to respond, even if you HAD read the email? How many people did read it, and declined to take the time to respond.

 

I honestly would have. I was curious and started trying to learn how they worked and signed up to keep one around 2015 after playing roughly a year as a single. .

 

Was I aware of how they were calculated ? No. But I was reading and trying to learn as much as I could.

 

I’m still convinced that it’s not near as air tight as it could be. If forced score posting were implemented, by forcing a tracking system where rounds were logged and therefore had to be posted before another round could be played or something similar , it would help. The honor system has never nor will ever be fair . Those with no honor or situational honor are the majority.

 

Had it bite me again Saturday. Now I’m not griping really as I only entered the net bracket for the reps. No expectation of winning. In fact I didn’t want to play the next opponent I would have had if I did win ( said it in another thread how much padding he has ) ...... I played a 9 cap of played and lost to before. I gave him 4 a side ( my cap Rounds up to 1 right now ). I was 3 down at the turn and put my head down and got it back to 1 up for me after 14. Ended up losing in 19 holes. You will say “ good match “. Yep. Mostly. But of you dissect it , I got another 9 with a career round.

 

I shot even 72 with 4 birdies and 2 doubles on the front. The two doubles were the difference. Long stories on each I won’t tell. Just one terrible break and one bad swing. 40 front 32 back.

 

He shoots 75. 3 natural birdies one for net eagle which won the hole and 2 on top of my birdies to halve holes. Nearly identical thing happened to me 2 years ago against him. The guy is a 3-4 cap I’m sure. But hey. Play better. Right? Lol.

 

Part of the issue of this too is the age demographic. This guy is 71 years old. Hits driver 260 plus on a string and hits his irons great. Strong fit guy. Walks every round etc. how does a 39 year old “ pup” who’s 5 years into this game call this guy a fraud and not be crucified ? I don’t have the standing to do so and I’m on the damn committee. I’ve called out the ones who are “ peers”. But in southern society especially. You don’t just walk up and call a 20 year member who’s 30 years your senior a cheat.

 

Sorry. I know rant. Lol. Again. I’m truly not sore. He really beat me on the card. Shots did not matter except 1 hole. But it just irks me that he had those on his pocket just in case. So yes. To sum up. I care Now and I cared then. And I do not believe the system is nearly as honest as you think it is.

[rogolf]

BTW - all of this WHS discussion is OFF TOPIC. Start a new thread.

[Roadking2003]

> @"Colin L" said:

> The World Handicap System isn't just a dream by the USGA. It's a reality from the USGA and the R&A which will be coming your way next year.

 

That's unfortunate. It should be just a dream. It's a solution looking for a problem.

[bladehunter]

> @rogolf said:

> BTW - all of this WHS discussion is OFF TOPIC. Start a new thread.

 

I thought the divot tirade was settled. We voted. No. Lol.

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

> I usually laugh when someone says they will email me. I always respond “ just text me when you do “ as my emails also don’t alert my phone. If they did it would I never stop ringing.

 

I'm just the opposite. People occasionally text me and then ask why I didn't respond for a day or two. I frequently check texts every other day.

 

[Roadking2003]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:>

> The development of WHS is using resources to that could otherwise be directed toward efforts that would have a more positive impact.

Exactly! Like outlawing music on the course.