CURRENT CFM chart that has the KBS Tour Vs

[Merlin_13]

Hey Y'all-

First of all- Merry Christmas(or however you choose to celebrate this time of year)!!!

I've been trying to find a current FCM chart that also shows the measurements for the KBS Tour V shafts. I can find all kinds of them that have the Tours and C-Tapers from 5-7 years ago. I'm trying to compare the values between the Project X LZ 6.0 and the Tour Vs. I don't necessarily need a chart if someone has the values to include LZ 6.0s, Tour V S(110) Tour V X(120) and Tour V X ssx1. Otherwise, I'm working on the assumption that the LZ 6.0 has the same values as the PX shafts that are shown in the charts. If that's NOT correct please let me know.

I appreciate any help-

Thanks

[JCAG]

FCM Charts do not compare different shafts. The FCM values are what they are. What you are wanting are the actual FCM numbers (from a frequency machine) to compare the shafts but even then the same numbers do not mean the same feel and/or behaviour.

[DaveMac]

The butt frequency for the Project X LZ 6.0 is contained near the bottom of this article (unfortunately no Tour V)https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/understand-golf-shaft-stiffness-ratings/

[Merlin_13]

Thanks y'all for the info- I appreciate it

[Howard_Jones]

FCM values or butt CPM alone is close to useless, so this is the best in can offer you for compare of this shafts (i had to cut and paste from different pages) but PX LZ is way SOFTER than its standard model with the same flex label, so PX, PXI or LZ DONT belong to the FCM flex system.

 

[nitram]

Howard, you rock brother! Glad you're still with us. Merry Christmas my friend and I hope 2020 is a good one for you.

[Merlin_13]

Howard Jones- Thanks so very much- you do indeed rock and I appreciate the work you did for that

[topaspin]

@Howard_Jones Thoughts on SW difference between KBS tour X flex and KBS tour V X flex? Currently Nippon 120X and sensitive to SW, coming out D7-E0 with ~62G midsize grips. +1" 4-8i, +1.25" 9-60. Going to hit both this week. 

 

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, topaspin said:

@Howard_Jones Thoughts on SW difference between KBS tour X flex and KBS tour V X flex? Currently Nippon 120X and sensitive to SW, coming out D7-E0 with ~62G midsize grips. +1" 4-8i, +1.25" 9-60. Going to hit both this week. 

 

Dont go by SW values, but how it feels and works.

Tour V has its BP closer to the center vs TOUR, but thats often due to lower weight, so how they turn out, i have no idea.
Modus 120 is "neutral" so all KBS option will return a lower SW value with the same head wgt.

[topaspin]

Thank you sir @Howard_Jones 

[Thayneil]

 KBS  website  they  state the  tour  V  R is  5.0  s  is  6.0 and  X is 7.0 

 

they dont state  the    Tour s and x  but by weight the   125  would  be  7.5 and  130  8.0!

[Thayneil]

Just now, Thayneil said:

 KBS  website  they  state the  tour  V  R is  5.0  s  is  6.0 and  X is 7.0 

 

they dont state  the    Tour s and x  but by weight the   125  would  be  7.5 and  130  8.0!

of course the main playing characteristics of the Tour V is  the stiffer tip

 

[PNW]

@Thayneil I think it's actually a stiffer mid section (relative to KBS Tour same weight) and softer tip. I think I've heard Kim Braly refer to as an "active tip." Howards chart above makes me think it's actually same tip stiffness as KBS Tour, just feels softer due to the stiffer mid feel. It certainly feels that way to hit.

[ShawLF]

4 hours ago, Thayneil said:

 KBS  website  they  state the  tour  V  R is  5.0  s  is  6.0 and  X is 7.0 

 

where is this info on the KBS site? Do you have a link? thanks!

[Thayneil]

19 hours ago, ShawLF said:

where is this info on the KBS site? Do you have a link? thanks!

 

 

https://kbsgolfshafts.com/wp-content/uploads/parallel_trimming_sheet.pdf

[ShawLF]

26 minutes ago, Thayneil said:

https://kbsgolfshafts.com/wp-content/uploads/parallel_trimming_sheet.pdf

Thanks for posting this. I didn't think to look at the the parallel tip trimming guide since KBS doesn't list the Tour V in a parallel option on their site. Maybe this is a custom option? From that sheet it seems that KBS is labeling the Tour V "light weight" and "tour spec" versions as having the same butt frequency - but based on some reviews these are very different shafts.

 

Comparing the trimming guide to the numbers Howard posted above:

- the Tour 120 S is 373 freq (6.2) which is similarly labelled on the trimming guide as S 6.0

- the Tour V 110 is 360 freq, the same freq as PX 5.0, which belongs in the R+ 5.5 category (but is shown as S 6.0)

[Thayneil]

3 hours ago, ShawLF said:

Thanks for posting this. I didn't think to look at the the parallel tip trimming guide since KBS doesn't list the Tour V in a parallel option on their site. Maybe this is a custom option? From that sheet it seems that KBS is labeling the Tour V "light weight" and "tour spec" versions as having the same butt frequency - but based on some reviews these are very different shafts.

 

Comparing the trimming guide to the numbers Howard posted above:

- the Tour 120 S is 373 freq (6.2) which is similarly labelled on the trimming guide as S 6.0

- the Tour V 110 is 360 freq, the same freq as PX 5.0, which belongs in the R+ 5.5 category (but is shown as S 6.0)

As far as I know  the  Tour  V is not made in parallel  but its  the  taper to which KBS assigned the  frequency values .To be fair its a little confusing  showing that info  within the parr trimming tables

 

R  5.0  s  6.0  X 7.0 etc

[ShawLF]

@Thayneil I agree. Also, I just looked at this: https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/kbs-tour-v-golf-shaft-review/

which shows the Tour 120s, C-Taper 120s and the Tour V 120x having approximately the same butt freq - obviously that's where the similarities end with these shafts - so Russ' analysis supports what @Howard_Jones shows in his butt freq tables.

 

My guess is that the "light weight" Tour V sits somewhere between tour and lite, and KBS listed it under tour in the trimming instructions (even though it might not belong in that doc to begin with)

[Arlin964]

On 8/21/2023 at 8:22 AM, Howard_Jones said:

Dont go by SW values, but how it feels and works.

Tour V has its BP closer to the center vs TOUR, but thats often due to lower weight, so how they turn out, i have no idea.
Modus 120 is "neutral" so all KBS option will return a lower SW value with the same head wgt.

This chart is really interesting to me. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but I have a question on this. 
 

Is it uncommon or odd for someone to “enjoy” shafts that show up at different locations on this balance point chart? For example, I’ve played, and liked, AMT S300, Project X standard, KBS Tour, C-Taper, and $-Taper. Does one typically have a range that fits them best, like a range on the FCM chart?
 

The two that come to mind that I’ve played and DIDNT like are PX LZ and Modus 120. 
 

I had always assumed (from just my own perception of weight balance) that I like shafts with a BP closer to the tip, but maybe my feels were all wrong. Or at least interpreted incorrectly. For example, both Project X and C-Taper feel like the BP is lower toward the head for me, but that doesn’t seem to match the actual data. 🤔

[Thayneil]

11 hours ago, ShawLF said:

@Thayneil I agree. Also, I just looked at this: https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/kbs-tour-v-golf-shaft-review/

which shows the Tour 120s, C-Taper 120s and the Tour V 120x having approximately the same butt freq - obviously that's where the similarities end with these shafts - so Russ' analysis supports what @Howard_Jones shows in his butt freq tables.

 

My guess is that the "light weight" Tour V sits somewhere between tour and lite, and KBS listed it under tour in the trimming instructions (even though it might not belong in that doc to begin with)

Phil Mickleson  plays  the Tour V 125   as he over powered  the KBS Tour

 

more or less designed  for  him, and he was a PX player

 

That's  from Mr  Kim Braly himself

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, Arlin964 said:

This chart is really interesting to me. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but I have a question on this. 
 

Is it uncommon or odd for someone to “enjoy” shafts that show up at different locations on this balance point chart? For example, I’ve played, and liked, AMT S300, Project X standard, KBS Tour, C-Taper, and $-Taper. Does one typically have a range that fits them best, like a range on the FCM chart?
 

The two that come to mind that I’ve played and DIDNT like are PX LZ and Modus 120. 
 

I had always assumed (from just my own perception of weight balance) that I like shafts with a BP closer to the tip, but maybe my feels were all wrong. Or at least interpreted incorrectly. For example, both Project X and C-Taper feel like the BP is lower toward the head for me, but that doesn’t seem to match the actual data. 🤔

Balance point is part of it all, but within irons, the difference to PB itself is not large enough to make BP "a very important parameter". Steel shafts is very often adjusted on BP by design, to compensate for weight differences. As example the discontinued DG SL vs the standard DG. To compensate for 22 grams lower shaft wgt, the SL model has the BP way forward of the middle. If the player was good with sub 110 grams, the shafts BP did not "prevent" that change when its so different, its more or less what made it possible. 

SO, do NOT focus too much on balance point, just like SW values, they dont really tell the full story, so dont use those specs as they should be #1 on the priority list, its not even close to that.

The same goes for butt CPM or FCM values. It only tells how the butt side itself is, but feel comes from the whole shaft, so we have to go by that, not butt CPM alone unless its clearly too strong or soft. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[Arlin964]

7 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Balance point is part of it all, but within irons, the difference to PB itself is not large enough to make BP "a very important parameter". Steel shafts is very often adjusted on BP by design, to compensate for weight differences. As example the discontinued DG SL vs the standard DG. To compensate for 22 grams lower shaft wgt, the SL model has the BP way forward of the middle. If the player was good with sub 110 grams, the shafts BP did not "prevent" that change when its so different, its more or less what made it possible. 

SO, do NOT focus too much on balance point, just like SW values, they dont really tell the full story, so dont use those specs as they should be #1 on the priority list, its not even close to that.

The same goes for butt CPM or FCM values. It only tells how the butt side itself is, but feel comes from the whole shaft, so we have to go by that, not butt CPM alone unless its clearly too strong or soft. 

Thanks for the insight. 
 

Follow up question: do you observe that location of BP contributes significantly to the feel for a player?

 

If I recall correctly, you have commented that weight and feel are two of the most important factors in a good shaft for a player so I’m curious about your experience on that aspect. 

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, Arlin964 said:

Thanks for the insight. 
 

Follow up question: do you observe that location of BP contributes significantly to the feel for a player?

 

If I recall correctly, you have commented that weight and feel are two of the most important factors in a good shaft for a player so I’m curious about your experience on that aspect. 

Im RUSTY as a old beer can, ive been retired from doing fittings 6 days a week for 8 years now (2015)

From my memory (back then when DG SL was a option), that shaft had a "strange feel" of BP and weight, UNLESS we added a MID SIZE grip on them, who added 10 grams butt side. That combo was a "big hit", and is more or less the same as todays DG 120 option....(they took it too far with the SL version, unless the player could play MID size, then they was perfect for many, just like DG 120 is)

In the end, its the summary of all components as TOTAL and how they FEEL during the swing for the player. (forget SW values)...ask yourself if feedback of both head, shaft and grip side is present at all stages of the swing?
We navigate the club on that feedback- Feedback of shaft wgt is what tells us when the shaft is LEVEL on the top, and when to turn the club, To low feedback of shaft wgt = over-swinging, so ALL components has to be "right", and the summary, within the limits for your total wgt. (my DIY driver tune up has a test for total wgt for ALL clubs)

And another point here, most of you think im some kind of shaft expert in general, but thats not really true, since i was a True Temper Performance Fitting Center, the focus was "TT products", so my first hand experience with other shaft brands and models, is limited to those brought to my shop by the customer himself.  Iknow most there is to know about TT products, for all others, its limited to those hand full of each that ive seen on my workbench. Lots of todays models came AFTER i retired, so i never saw shafts like MODUS 3 or PX LZ on my workbench as example, i only know them by pure shaft specs and EI profiles.

[HungryGolfer]

On 12/25/2019 at 6:14 PM, Howard_Jones said:

FCM values or butt CPM alone is close to useless, so this is the best in can offer you for compare of this shafts (i had to cut and paste from different pages) but PX LZ is way SOFTER than its standard model with the same flex label, so PX, PXI or LZ DONT belong to the FCM flex system.

 

Is there an updated version of this with the 7.0s and the Project X LS?

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, HungryGolfer said:

Is there an updated version of this with the 7.0s and the Project X LS?

Im not aware of any shafts DBs out there now without copy rights and quite high fees