Tired of hearing "start the downswing from the ground up"

[Jacob Mac]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

So how do you use ground forces? And how do you think it differs from your typical am?

[birly-shirly]

iteach and the others who think the swing in that video was initiated by the core. "What body part initiated the back swing?" Also when you start you back swing what body part starts it? I am all ears....

Try standing on a tile floor in your socks and see what happens when you swing a club.

This is the most important statement made so far and points to the importance of the feet and their contact,grip and pressure with the ground. Sam Snead told everyone about the importance of good footwork and without it you're going to struggle.

 

That all may well be true, but in this context ironic considering Snead was famous (amongst other things of course) for playing barefoot.

[jbw749]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

So in other words you had an "awesome" range session where firing the arms worked great and now you've got it figured out?

[mikpga]

Ah, the mystery and power of words...

[bph7]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

LPGA's don't really support the point. A lot of them aren't using the ground properly and are instead jumping. Also they hit it no where, so it doesn't help with distance.

[Nard_S]

I think some guy named Newton figured this stuff out about 500 years ago.

[ChipDriver]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

So how do you use ground forces? And how do you think it differs from your typical am?

 

I learned it 2 ways:

 

1) take off your shoes

2) swing with your feet together

 

Amateurs don't realize how bad their swings are - and how much their shoes (for example) play a role in stabilizing a bad (lateral, sliding, poorly rotating) swing. So get rid of the shoes. :) Take a couple of good cuts at the ball with your normal swing - and see if you fall off balance in any way? If you do - then your shoes are what connects you to the ground - and you're starting to understand why using the ground is important....or that your shoes do the hard work for you - so you can have a less than perfect swing.

 

Then swing with your feet together - a simple drill that will quickly make any "bad swing" realize how off center they are and how much more centered they could be.

 

With the 2 drills together - start with small 1/2 and 3/4 swings with little effort - I guarantee that many of you only have your bare feet and you will instinctively grab the ground for stability with your toes. THAT is the essence of beginning to use the ground. As you become more centered - increase the length and strength of your swing - again - it will reinforce how much your shoes are actually doing in a swing.

 

When using the ground - a lot of folks use the ground passively (these are my words - and I'm not a pro) instead of actively.

 

To learn how to actively use your legs (and it's very dangerous b/c it can screw you up big time) - again start from the feet together drill. You'll notice that in a centered swing, the weight shifts almost rhythmically and predictably as you swing....for many it's outside right heel at the top of the backswing, then travels sort of up the inside right edge diagonal through the right big toe, then shifts to the inside left edge and down to the outside left heel. In theory you can be like a pitcher in baseball and really drive your legs into a swing - but it's not something I'd recommend. :)

 

That's how I learned it all anyways. :)

 

But to your point: For most folks if you took your shoes off and made your own swing on wet grass - I bet a bunch of folks fall flat on their butt - b/c their shoes and spikes are necessary to keep you attached to the ground b/c you have a manipulated swing.

[SunkTheBirdie]

What happened, did you have a rules violation on your one eagle?

Nope :) Just time to move over.

[goatbarn]

What happened, did you have a rules violation on your one eagle?

Nope :) Just time to move over.

 

The internet is weird.

 

That's kind of creepy/off-putting...

[Jacob Mac]

What happened, did you have a rules violation on your one eagle?

Nope :) Just time to move over.

 

The internet is weird.

 

That's kind of creepy/off-putting...

 

Nah. Throw up your swing and sunkthebirdie will show you your P6 and give you a couple tips to get to scratch.

[nsxguy]

iteach and the others who think the swing in that video was initiated by the core. "What body part initiated the back swing?" Also when you start you back swing what body part starts it? I am all ears....

Try standing on a tile floor in your socks and see what happens when you swing a club.

This is the most important statement made so far and points to the importance of the feet and their contact,grip and pressure with the ground. Sam Snead told everyone about the importance of good footwork and without it you're going to struggle.

 

That all may well be true, but in this context ironic considering Snead was famous (amongst other things of course) for playing barefoot.

 

On the Tour ? Never noticed that.

 

Or did he do it to demonstrate the importance of good balance ?

[SunkTheBirdie]

I have to keep reminding myself.

 

[Ghost of Snead]

What happened, did you have a rules violation on your one eagle?

Nope :) Just time to move over.

 

The internet is weird.

 

That's kind of creepy/off-putting...

 

Nah. Throw up your swing and sunkthebirdie will show you your P6 and give you a couple tips to get to scratch.

 

Is that before or after he gets banned for having multiple userIDs ?

[vman]

iteach and the others who think the swing in that video was initiated by the core. "What body part initiated the back swing?" Also when you start you back swing what body part starts it? I am all ears....

Try standing on a tile floor in your socks and see what happens when you swing a club.

This is the most important statement made so far and points to the importance of the feet and their contact,grip and pressure with the ground. Sam Snead told everyone about the importance of good footwork and without it you're going to struggle.

 

That all may well be true, but in this context ironic considering Snead was famous (amongst other things of course) for playing barefoot.

It is all true and not the least bit ironic. It should be informative in that he spent his formative years practising barefoot and gained a powerful and balanced swing as a result. He wasn't slipping and sliding about in his bare feet they were gripping and pressuring the ground and he was strengthening at the same time.

[ChipDriver]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

LPGA's don't really support the point. A lot of them aren't using the ground properly and are instead jumping. Also they hit it no where, so it doesn't help with distance.

 

Without intending to be sexist:

 

Women are weaker than men...so in order for them to hit is 250-260 they need to swing differently - more technically correct using the ground-up approach.

 

Men like GolfWRXers can muscle the ball with their hands and arms and a passive lower body.

 

If they could learn to use their lower body correctly - they'd add 10% to their distance.

 

For the slow - that's about 20 more yards of carry on a drive. :)

[birly-shirly]

iteach and the others who think the swing in that video was initiated by the core. "What body part initiated the back swing?" Also when you start you back swing what body part starts it? I am all ears....

Try standing on a tile floor in your socks and see what happens when you swing a club.

This is the most important statement made so far and points to the importance of the feet and their contact,grip and pressure with the ground. Sam Snead told everyone about the importance of good footwork and without it you're going to struggle.

 

That all may well be true, but in this context ironic considering Snead was famous (amongst other things of course) for playing barefoot.

It is all true and not the least bit ironic. It should be informative in that he spent his formative years practising barefoot and gained a powerful and balanced swing as a result. He wasn't slipping and sliding about in his bare feet they were gripping and pressuring the ground and he was strengthening at the same time.

 

We can agree to disagree about the irony. But it'll be an odd wrx discussion about ground forces that doesn't soon bring up Hogan and his extra spike. Or that softspikes make it all but impossible to make a decent swing. I'm going to find it difficult to believe that Snead in his bare feet didn't have a lot less friction between him and the ground than anyone wearing almost any sort of shoe, never mind spikes. But balance, and strengthening, and proprioception for sure, I can buy that.

[bph7]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

LPGA's don't really support the point. A lot of them aren't using the ground properly and are instead jumping. Also they hit it no where, so it doesn't help with distance.

 

Without intending to be sexist:

 

Women are weaker than men...so in order for them to hit is 250-260 they need to swing differently - more technically correct using the ground-up approach.

 

Men like GolfWRXers can muscle the ball with their hands and arms and a passive lower body.

 

If they could learn to use their lower body correctly - they'd add 10% to their distance.

 

For the slow - that's about 20 more yards of carry on a drive. :)

 

I pretty much agree but one thing I don't agree with is that, in general, I personally don't think most lpga swings use the lower body/ground "properly". I think the "jump" type move is almost the opposite of efficient use of the ground/lower body. Because of this, I think a lot of them leave distance on the table, just as anyone who doesn't use the ground "properly" does. Furthermore, if I am wrong and lpga players are using their lower bodies properly, then why do a lot of their swings/lower body action differ so much from of pga tour guys? Are the tour guys doing it wrong?

 

I'm really asking. I think the biggest difference between pga tour swings and lpga swings is the lower body action. And someone like Mickey Wright, who I think had one of the best swings ever (male or female) seems closer to what men's players do.

 

Also, please don't bother with outliers on either side (bubba jumps, lots of lpga don't, I know). I'm just talking about the majority.

[Jacob Mac]

Ya Mickey Wright looks like she rolls on her instep. Much different than the lpga players who jump.

 

 

[ChipDriver]

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

 

I'd say that most people don't get it - because they don't know how to actually use the ground to their advantage. For me it's all about "corkscrewing" yourself from the ground up to your shoulders. If you do it half way decently - you get a lot more effortless power.

 

Do you NEED to coil? No. Lots of golfers (particularly amateurs) only use their arms and their body just reacts almost passively. And you can play good golf that way. But you're giving up a lot of effortless power. Short fat golfers who aren't strong - or lots of women too - need to use the ground more - to get the ball out there. Lots of golfers are weak upper body but strong legs and torsos - MUST use the ground to get their power.

 

To put it pretty simply - why do we have spikes on golf shoes? If the ground were not important there would be no use for spikes, we'd just use running shoes or sneakers. Some people know how to use the ground - and some don't. Don't trash the ones that don't.

 

Using the ground properly will maybe at 10% distance gain or more. Doesn't sound like a lot...if you don't know how to use math. :)

 

Look at a lot of small LPGAers - look at their stances (they wear shorts so you can see leg muscles engaged at set up - men don't)....their legs are engaged at set up - and already using the ground.

 

LPGA's don't really support the point. A lot of them aren't using the ground properly and are instead jumping. Also they hit it no where, so it doesn't help with distance.

 

Without intending to be sexist:

 

Women are weaker than men...so in order for them to hit is 250-260 they need to swing differently - more technically correct using the ground-up approach.

 

Men like GolfWRXers can muscle the ball with their hands and arms and a passive lower body.

 

If they could learn to use their lower body correctly - they'd add 10% to their distance.

 

For the slow - that's about 20 more yards of carry on a drive. :)

 

I pretty much agree but one thing I don't agree with is that, in general, I personally don't think most lpga swings use the lower body/ground "properly". I think the "jump" type move is almost the opposite of efficient use of the ground/lower body. Because of this, I think a lot of them leave distance on the table, just as anyone who doesn't use the ground "properly" does. Furthermore, if I am wrong and lpga players are using their lower bodies properly, then why do a lot of their swings/lower body action differ so much from of pga tour guys? Are the tour guys doing it wrong?

 

I'm really asking. I think the biggest difference between pga tour swings and lpga swings is the lower body action. And someone like Mickey Wright, who I think had one of the best swings ever (male or female) seems closer to what men's players do.

 

Also, please don't bother with outliers on either side (bubba jumps, lots of lpga don't, I know). I'm just talking about the majority.

 

I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing. I don't agree that most LPGAer's jump - maybe Laura Davies, Creamer, Lexi, Gulbis. Even if they did - I believe it supports my view that the ground is important. Most LD hitters jump - and they use the ground in a very strong way. It's a result of the squat - which is using the ground as a platform too.

 

I say the LPGAers use the ground (and lower body) better simply b/c they have too - I'd guess if they used mostly an upper body driven swing - they'd hit it a lot shorter. For many of us weekend warriors - we can get the same distance (230-240) with a bad mechanical swing...and without the need for good mechanics.

[Kuuuch]

Jump=stall no?

[chrisgilly09]

Tough call; lets look at what GG calls the kick up and thats more or less a jump, but because it follows a massive lower body rotation it happens at the right time sequentially, up at the target not at the ball. As opposed to those who are out of position (typically too far left) so they have to jump to make room and stay closed off

 

Maybe the best way to look at it would be when during the swing the jump happens, not if it happens. A couple lpga'ers on that list are of the latter imo, but these are mere musings

[ChipDriver]

Tough call; lets look at what GG calls the kick up and thats more or less a jump, but because it follows a massive lower body rotation it happens at the right time sequentially, up at the target not at the ball. As opposed to those who are out of position (typically too far left) so they have to jump to make room and stay closed off

 

Maybe the best way to look at it would be when during the swing the jump happens, not if it happens. A couple lpga'ers on that list are of the latter imo, but these are mere musings

 

My (non pro) understanding is: in isolation, the left shoulder is essentially the whip handle, and the club head is the tip of the whip.

 

1) your shoulders are making a circle around your spine during the swing.

2) at the top of the backswing, our left/leading shoulder is now at it's lowest point.

3) in the downswing itself the left shoulder is going therefore rotate upwards...and as it goes up, the whip tip (club head) moves down.

4) the theory is that the faster the shoulders rotate up, the faster the club head goes down...

5) in addition to the torque created by the coiling created by the rooting into the ground etc etc - rising up with the affirmative leg action straightening/jumping - gets the shoulder/whip handle to move "up" even faster...thereby making the whip tip go day even faster.

 

That's the theory - I don't do it - I'm not that coordinated. :)

[northgolf]

I can't say anything for your or others misunderstanding of what a teacher may or not have meant. And hips do start fractionally before shoulders. You do create more separation between upper body and and lower body as you change direction. What you call "xfactor land" is real in that in good swings there is an increase in separation during transition.

 

And you'd be surprised how much pressure shifts and how quickly it moves forward in the downswing.

 

Do you have a kinematic sequence graph that you think illustrates the ideal? The ones I see people using for ideal on TPI and other places show increasing separation of shoulders and hips towards the top of the back swing and then a constant separation until the hips begin to slow.

 

You won't see it by looking only at kinematic sequence graph, at least not at the resolution most use. Can post when I get home. Just because they appear to go at the same rate doesn't mean there isn't separation increasing in transition. Very easy to see when looking at hips vs shoulders in 3D

 

This is a good point and I wanted to follow up on it.

 

TPI actually had a KSM graph that drilled into transition with more granularity than normally posted on the web: http://www.mytpi.com/files/Articles/1067a_3d2.png

 

The article: http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/should_all_the_body_parts_reach_the_top_of_backswing_at_the_same_time made the suggestion that the span of time between when the hips fired and the rest caught up might be dependent on the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch, but that seemed a bit of a reach. Still, with no evidence of hips and shoulders moving in unison, I have to say I am wrong about the physical reality.

[Silky]

I can't say anything for your or others misunderstanding of what a teacher may or not have meant. And hips do start fractionally before shoulders. You do create more separation between upper body and and lower body as you change direction. What you call "xfactor land" is real in that in good swings there is an increase in separation during transition.

 

And you'd be surprised how much pressure shifts and how quickly it moves forward in the downswing.

 

Do you have a kinematic sequence graph that you think illustrates the ideal? The ones I see people using for ideal on TPI and other places show increasing separation of shoulders and hips towards the top of the back swing and then a constant separation until the hips begin to slow.

 

You won't see it by looking only at kinematic sequence graph, at least not at the resolution most use. Can post when I get home. Just because they appear to go at the same rate doesn't mean there isn't separation increasing in transition. Very easy to see when looking at hips vs shoulders in 3D

 

This is a good point and I wanted to follow up on it.

 

TPI actually had a KSM graph that drilled into transition with more granularity than normally posted on the web: http://www.mytpi.com...s/1067a_3d2.png

 

The article: http://www.mytpi.com...t_the_same_time made the suggestion that the span of time between when the hips fired and the rest caught up might be dependent on the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch, but that seemed a bit of a reach. Still, with no evidence of hips and shoulders moving in unison, I have to say I am wrong about the physical reality.

 

The art of float loading in the downswing - torso against pelvis, arms against torso, club against arms and sequential unloading - wide-narrow-wide - like Ben Hogan? I can only salivate - too old for such a beauty.

[ray9898]

LOL...the most amazing thing in this thread is that some people have the time to create multiple user identities so they can boast their own viewpoints.

 

Who knew?

[glcoach]

The golf swing is about moving your center of pressure properly. Using the ground is an important part of any golf swing.

[golftech]

Mickey Wright definitely felt like she played from the ground up. Read her book, particularly section on her footwork and rolling her ankles. Very similar to how Nicklaus says he was taught by Jack Grout.

[N0rs3man]

Idk golf swing is mainly about sequence. I often thought I'd have someone take a baseball bat and pound a punching bag as hard as they could for an hour over a few weeks to build sequence. Then throw a Club in their hands and go from there.