Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[thug the bunny]

I still want to know who came up with these metrics. Was it a study? Was it a survey? Was it just based on #s of rounds played in a certain time frame? What was the methodology? What was the error? What was the statistical significance of the data? What caveats/assumptions were made to arrive at the conclusions?

I think this might be one of the biggest media hoaxes in our era - the abundance of "Recent studies have shown that people who eat cardboard and make only left-hand turns while driving live 9.32 yrs longer than those who don't", and then everyone goes, hey it must be true, studies proved it.

[NJpatbee]

I cannot speak for anyone else, but the improvement in equipment has kept me in the game and also allows me to play from the proper set of tees on some of these incredibly long courses. I do believe that some of the older designs have been obsoleted for the PGA Tour, but not for the 99.9% of the rest of us.

My company belonged to a private club that was built in 1929, is 6752 from the tips, and has 6 par 4's over 400 yards, the longest being 439 yards. Hickory shafts, much shorter golf balls, and clubs heads with the tiniest of sweet spots - now that was hard! Golf was very exclusive at the time based upon wealth, gender, race, ethnic group, religion, etc, but difficulty was not the reason most people never played golf.

[QuigleyDU]

Great, means that the average time/round should go down right??

[whiteout73]

Well, I must just be lucky. In the past several years, I've seen prices drop, but the course conditions remain excellent. I mostly play late afternoon rounds on the weekends. When I moved to the Atlanta area (northern 'burbs) back in 2001, my "home" course charged $60 for these rounds. Now, that's down to $40, often less. My other course used to charge $75, now it's $50. I play alone most of the time, and I have no problem zipping around, and getting in 24 to 27 holes, teeing off at like 3:30, 4:00. Whatever is going on, I'm not complaining.

[vbb]

[quote name='QuigleyDU' timestamp='1401213864' post='9375031']
Great, means that the average time/round should go down right??
[/quote]Yeah, that's the knee-jerk reaction that many of us golfers have, but golf is a business, and you can better believe they'll do whatever it takes to keep their courses busy and profitable, and if they can't, they'll close. Unfortunately I don't think that we're likely to see 3 and a half hr rounds at 9am on a Saturday at most decent muni courses anytime soon. It'd be nice though. My home course, a semi-private muni course (basically just a nicer muni course where you can get a locker and become a member) has responded to the downturn by offering up membership specials that you'd never have thought you'd see 5-6 years ago, putting tee times even closer together, and basically doing away with the roving marshal that used to encourage everyone to keep proper pace. Don't get me wrong, I love the specials, but the pace of play has not changed one bit, and may have even gotten worse during the premium times.

[studatnu]

[quote name='nando' timestamp='1398261672' post='9150669']
[quote name='Mario Good Times' timestamp='1398260263' post='9150521']
The less people play golf the better pricing and more tee times available for me.
[/quote]

Yeah!
[/quote]

not if the price of commodities needed to run a golf course keep going up....

[xrt99]

Today's world = instant gratification

Most people simply do not want to do anything that takes an inordinate amount of time, and in golf it takes forever to both improve and play the game - relatively speaking to other activities

[leftyrighty]

B.S., B.S., consider the source, the NYT for Christ's sake. People don't have the disposable income they used to because of the Federal govts meddling into a capitalist's societies economy. The value of the dollars suck because the Fed is infusing 80 billion a month of play money into the economy or we would still have an 11% unemployment rate. For those of you that voted for Obama or Democrat for that matter, do me a favor and quit golf. Golf is for conservatives, people with character and people with some class. Everytime Obama tees it up I see a cockroach in the Lobster bisque. Private clubs for those that have real money are doing fine, many other private clubs for...I guess.. those "white" people like myself who have slaved all their life to try to make it, support our families, educate our children are struggling. We have black members of our club also and most don't get them started on Obama, they hate his guts. Municipal courses are supported dependingon who plays the course. A course here in Tampa, Rodger's Park got millions because there is a lot of black players. The others did not. The advent of metrosexuals, hyper gayness, men who are stay at home mom's and the general 180 degree turnaround of society plays into a golfing demise. Kid play golf but most sit at home and do nothing but it's about the same ratio it was when I was growing up. Some kids are just lazy, do not care for sports and golf requires some work. The game will always be there for true golfers, the spend what they have to to enjoy the game and if we oust the people who just play golf, don't really care about the game and cause most of those 5 hour rounds, that would be fine with me. Women who truly want to play golf are most certainly welcome but playing golf with someone who hits it 125 at her best shot is not welcome in my "5" some. My fivesome played yesterday in 3 hours and 10 minutes, 6600 yards, 5 man wolf, pick after the second shot and hit in order on the par 3's. People cring at playing in front of us and some will not. We kept up with a 3some, all riding. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. Society itself is responsible for all the crap associated with any demise.

[thug the bunny]

leftyrighty, do us all a favor and quit WRX

BTW, it was a bunch of powerful rich white guys who invented the Federal Reserve, which is the principal mechanism by which all that 'play money' is being injected into the economy.

[leftyrighty]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1398258360' post='9150321']
The New York Times published an article last Friday discussing the many ways golf is dying and the attempts to grow the game: [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/sports/golf/in-a-hole-golf-considers-digging-a-wider-one.html"]http://www.nytimes.c...-wider-one.html[/url]

[b]To summarize the article, the main reasons why golf is dying:[/b]
1) Too hard
2) Too expensive
3) Takes too long
4) Women don't feel welcome

[b]Why they're hard to fix:[/b]
1) Too hard
The best way to make the game easier is to have everyone play forward tees. People will always slice the ball and 3 putt, but it's most frustrating when you're chunking shots from the rough, so fewer of those is better for everyone. Unfortunately, the majority of golfers have stubborn egos.

2) Too expensive
Equipment is too expensive, but companies have back themselves into a corner releasing $500 drivers every 6 months. No CEO will ever cut back once they've established that revenue stream because they will immediately be fired, and the next CEO won't make the same mistake.
Green fees are also too expensive. Too many golf courses were built in the past 15-20 years. Indeed, there is a bubble in golf courses just as there was in housing. With fewer golfers, courses try to charge the highest prices they can get away with when they should just go out of business.

3) Takes too long
This is a byproduct of 1 with golfers playing tees that are too long. It's also a byproduct of too many tee times being squeeze together, a byproduct of courses trying not to lose money. Hell, the course I regularly play has tee times every 8 minutes which makes weekend rounds take 5-6 hours.

4) Women don't feel welcome
When half the population is missing, of course you're going to have problems. But this is to hard to fix, in large part because the majority of people who control golf and spend money on golf are from the Mad Men generation, when women knew their place (in the kitchen). Younger people are more progressive, but they aren't playing the game because of the aforementioned majority older players.

[b]Why Golf Is Doomed[/b]
It may seem like I'm saying older white men are the reason why golf is dying. Of course, it's more complicated than that. But there are systemic issues in the game, and by the time they're fixed, I fear golf as a recreational sport is basically going to die like boxing did as a spectator sport.

PGA of America president Ted Bishop: “I went to a golf club’s 125th anniversary dinner not long ago, and the overwhelming majority of the people in the room were over 55. We should be asking, ‘On that club’s 150th anniversary, who’s going to attend?’” My answer? No one.
[/quote]

You must live in the Northeast. Blue states are dying anyway and who cares. They all vote Democrat. You have 7 millions trying to play a few courses in New York city. I hears about Bethpage, what a joke, no course is that good I wake up at 2am to get in line. Ted Bishop is an affluent man and yes they were all old white people but the demographics are not going to change in private clubs unless minorities know how to act and the minorities that do are members of private clubs. These stupid generalizations get my B/P up. Most women aren't welcome because they can't bust an egg, play when the real golfers are not on the course and that goes for the guys also. If you can't play you have no business on the golf course at peak times with the people who support the course. If the women is a "paying" member, unlike most, she has a right to any tee off time she can get and if she and 3 other girls hold up the golf course, she will only do it one time, I promise. If golf is too expensive look for sales, buy off ebay or buy some secondhand junk if you want to play. Real golfers don't care what it cost. If a 20 handicapper want to play Prov1 let him. He's paying for it, it's his business. Golfing, especially WRX sometimes is someone sticking their nose in someone else's business. Mind you own game, not mine unless I ask for help. The game is too hard, yes it is hard but not "too" hard. You don't like it don't play it. No one is making you play. Typical of some progressive BS artist. Anything worth having is worth working for and I've worked damn hard for my low single digit handicap at 57 years of age up from scratch but I still compete like a bulldog. This type of crap post from the NYT is what you get when progressives infiltrate a sport of which they have no business in. Golf requires work, it is not easy. Golf requires money and you want to take it all from people who work and give it to people who don't want to work. Progressives feel golf is for the elite only. The elitist should be able to tell if and when you can play golf, how much money you can have and how you can spend it. God forbid should some upper middle class real golfer infiltrate one of their clubs up north with a bunch of blue haired aristocrats who have no idea how the rest of us live. Why would anyone want to hang around with a bunch of snobs anyway.

[leftyrighty]

[quote name='JWells' timestamp='1398267501' post='9151451']
It's been said a million times and I'll say it again. Golf courses are way too hostile towards beginner/bad golfers.

Most (not all) course employees/pro shop employees are on a pedastool and look down and anyone who is unknowledgable about the game.

Slow play can be annoying but it's even more annoying and inappropriate when people are rude to other customers on the course, this is where marshals need to be more proactive.

I got involved in the game 2 years ago. When I was a beginner I felt like an outsider and at times treated as such.


Also the golf manufactures need to chill out with the constant releases of new product lines. Not only is this hurting the stores that sell them. It just keeps giving the game a persona of being too expensive to play.
[/quote]
Everyone was a beginner at one time. Rookies bear the brunt of ridicule, always been that way. Practice, play when you can and one day you will be beating those guys. I grew up and got to play with some better golfers and hit the ball in the woods. They would not help and would leave me if I got too slow. I was a kid and they were just bigger kids. One summer they started playing and I was playing with them and they hit it in the woods. I pretty much said don't look for it too long or I'll leave you and at that time I was the stuff no them. Payback can be delightful.

[natedd]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1401188742' post='9372757']
The biggest problem golf faces is demographics. The[b] baby boomer generation[/b] is aging and beginning to die off. Young people aren't taking up the game at anywhere near the pace needed to replace the older generation. The second biggest problem is this sheet economy.
[/quote]

Always seems to cause problems...

[cloozoe]

Whoa, leftyrighty: Obviously legitimate discussions and disagreements could be had about economic theory, monetary policy and current economic reality as measured objectively...but not with you. You cite no facts; just a long, sour,nasty, blathering rant. You could easily be refuted. But not by me; I couldn't imagine a more futile use of my time. And, by the way, in my experience, people with "class" never talk about having it.

Where'd the "left" part of "lefty/righty" come from, anyway? Near as I can tell you're bucking for the presidency of the Oswald Mosely Appreciation Society. I almost feel bad for you. What an ignorant, bile-filled piece of work you are.

[Anonymosity]

[quote name='leftyrighty' timestamp='1401221669' post='9375955']
[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1398258360' post='9150321']
The New York Times published an article last Friday discussing the many ways golf is dying and the attempts to grow the game: [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/sports/golf/in-a-hole-golf-considers-digging-a-wider-one.html"]http://www.nytimes.c...-wider-one.html[/url]

[b]To summarize the article, the main reasons why golf is dying:[/b]
1) Too hard
2) Too expensive
3) Takes too long
4) Women don't feel welcome

[b]Why they're hard to fix:[/b]
1) Too hard
The best way to make the game easier is to have everyone play forward tees. People will always slice the ball and 3 putt, but it's most frustrating when you're chunking shots from the rough, so fewer of those is better for everyone. Unfortunately, the majority of golfers have stubborn egos.

2) Too expensive
Equipment is too expensive, but companies have back themselves into a corner releasing $500 drivers every 6 months. No CEO will ever cut back once they've established that revenue stream because they will immediately be fired, and the next CEO won't make the same mistake.
Green fees are also too expensive. Too many golf courses were built in the past 15-20 years. Indeed, there is a bubble in golf courses just as there was in housing. With fewer golfers, courses try to charge the highest prices they can get away with when they should just go out of business.

3) Takes too long
This is a byproduct of 1 with golfers playing tees that are too long. It's also a byproduct of too many tee times being squeeze together, a byproduct of courses trying not to lose money. Hell, the course I regularly play has tee times every 8 minutes which makes weekend rounds take 5-6 hours.

4) Women don't feel welcome
When half the population is missing, of course you're going to have problems. But this is to hard to fix, in large part because the majority of people who control golf and spend money on golf are from the Mad Men generation, when women knew their place (in the kitchen). Younger people are more progressive, but they aren't playing the game because of the aforementioned majority older players.

[b]Why Golf Is Doomed[/b]
It may seem like I'm saying older white men are the reason why golf is dying. Of course, it's more complicated than that. But there are systemic issues in the game, and by the time they're fixed, I fear golf as a recreational sport is basically going to die like boxing did as a spectator sport.

PGA of America president Ted Bishop: “I went to a golf club’s 125th anniversary dinner not long ago, and the overwhelming majority of the people in the room were over 55. We should be asking, ‘On that club’s 150th anniversary, who’s going to attend?’” My answer? No one.
[/quote]

You must live in the Northeast. Blue states are dying anyway and who cares. They all vote Democrat. You have 7 millions trying to play a few courses in New York city. I hears about Bethpage, what a joke, no course is that good I wake up at 2am to get in line. Ted Bishop is an affluent man and yes they were all old white people but the demographics are not going to change in private clubs unless minorities know how to act and the minorities that do are members of private clubs. These stupid generalizations get my B/P up. Most women aren't welcome because they can't bust an egg, play when the real golfers are not on the course and that goes for the guys also. If you can't play you have no business on the golf course at peak times with the people who support the course. If the women is a "paying" member, unlike most, she has a right to any tee off time she can get and if she and 3 other girls hold up the golf course, she will only do it one time, I promise. If golf is too expensive look for sales, buy off ebay or buy some secondhand junk if you want to play. Real golfers don't care what it cost. If a 20 handicapper want to play Prov1 let him. He's paying for it, it's his business. Golfing, especially WRX sometimes is someone sticking their nose in someone else's business. Mind you own game, not mine unless I ask for help. The game is too hard, yes it is hard but not "too" hard. You don't like it don't play it. No one is making you play. Typical of some progressive BS artist. Anything worth having is worth working for and I've worked damn hard for my low single digit handicap at 57 years of age up from scratch but I still compete like a bulldog. This type of crap post from the NYT is what you get when progressives infiltrate a sport of which they have no business in. Golf requires work, it is not easy. Golf requires money and you want to take it all from people who work and give it to people who don't want to work. Progressives feel golf is for the elite only. The elitist should be able to tell if and when you can play golf, how much money you can have and how you can spend it. God forbid should some upper middle class real golfer infiltrate one of their clubs up north with a bunch of blue haired aristocrats who have no idea how the rest of us live. Why would anyone want to hang around with a bunch of snobs anyway.
[/quote]

What in the world

I look forward to reading your full manifesto.

[Roody]

[quote name='leftyrighty' timestamp='1401220580' post='9375843']
For those of you that voted for Obama or Democrat for that matter, do me a favor and quit golf. Golf is for conservatives, people with character and people with some class.
[/quote]
Can't tell if level 5 troll alert, or post for the LOLz.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1401242530' post='9378703']
[quote name='leftyrighty' timestamp='1401220580' post='9375843']
For those of you that voted for Obama or Democrat for that matter, do me a favor and quit golf. Golf is for conservatives, people with character and people with some class.
[/quote]
Can't tell if level 5 troll alert, or post for the LOLz.
[/quote]I don't think I would want to make the dems quit golf, maybe make them play after 2:00pm only.

[Poor Posture]

Free instruction for beginners would do the sport a lot of good. You have to be incredibly dedicated to get through the initial learning curve...

[Sean2]

Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.

[cxx]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401245794' post='9379145']
Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.
[/quote]

That seems like asking a realtor if a house is a good investment. But it could be true.

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401279061' post='9380635']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401245794' post='9379145']
Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.
[/quote]

That seems like asking a realtor if a house is a good investment. But it could be true.
[/quote]

That is what I was implying about this "study". Whenever I see/hear anything from mainstream media about "studies have shown...", "studies indicate...", my BS meter starts blinking. Who did the study? What are their credentials? How was the study conducted? What were the controls? What was the sample population?

NGF is a golf industry special interest group with an agenda. I would really like to see their methodology and data analysis from this "study".

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Have any of you quit playing due to money? Do you personally know anyone that quit playing due to money? I don't, and I know people who've been out of work that kept playing.

I have another very expensive expensive hobby, down hill skiing, and all I can say is the mountains are full.

So by my observations "if" golf numbers are down, which I take with a grain of salt, it has little to do with any economic factors. Maybe the high priced resort courses and low to mid range private clubs are impacted more, but I'm guessing that golfer's are just being more price conscious and taking their game elsewhere.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1401280341' post='9380763']
[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401279061' post='9380635']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401245794' post='9379145']
Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.
[/quote]

That seems like asking a realtor if a house is a good investment. But it could be true.
[/quote]

That is what I was implying about this "study". Whenever I see/hear anything from mainstream media about "studies have shown...", "studies indicate...", my BS meter starts blinking. Who did the study? What are their credentials? How was the study conducted? What were the controls? What was the sample population?

NGF is a golf industry special interest group with an agenda. I would really like to see their methodology and data analysis from this "study".
[/quote]

You only question when you hear it from the mainstream media? I call BS anytime something doesn't add up, no matter who says it.

I do like your questions about the study and data.

[SheriffBooth]

Political discussion of any type is a violation of forum rules. I've cleaned up the most recent posts in this thread. Feel free to continue discussing this interesting topic, but keep politics out of it. Thanks!

[thug the bunny]

SheriffBooth, I don't think questioning the methodology of a study is political, so why was my post deleted?

I believe we are all way too accepting of these "studies" that media spouts all over the place, and this one is no different.

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1401287804' post='9381585']
SheriffBooth, I don't think questioning the methodology of a study is political, so why was my post deleted?

I believe we are all way too accepting of these "studies" that media spouts all over the place, and this one is no different.
[/quote]

My job involves analyzing data and interpreting information.

I agree 100% that the average person is way too eager to accept information without considering a whole bunch of other stuff that they should.

Also, I am well aware of how to create the right story with information. It doesn't mean I am simply stating facts.

This report has the same potential bias as I do when trying to influence decisions in my job. Take any and all information with caution!

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1401292928' post='9382151']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1401287804' post='9381585']
SheriffBooth, I don't think questioning the methodology of a study is political, so why was my post deleted?

I believe we are all way too accepting of these "studies" that media spouts all over the place, and this one is no different.
[/quote]

My job involves analyzing data and interpreting information.

I agree 100% that the average person is way too eager to accept information without considering a whole bunch of other stuff that they should.

Also, I am well aware of how to create the right story with information. It doesn't mean I am simply stating facts.

This report has the same potential bias as I do when trying to influence decisions in my job. Take any and all information with caution!
[/quote]

Well said. My job also involves data analysis, statistics, and interpretation. I have found quite often that when you do look deeper at some of these "studies" performed at the behest of organizations with agendas, you find that their conclusions are misstated, exaggerated, or just outright fabricated.

[Auditor_Kevin]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1401209849' post='9374593']
I still want to know who came up with these metrics. Was it a study? Was it a survey? Was it just based on #s of rounds played in a certain time frame? What was the methodology? What was the error? What was the statistical significance of the data? What caveats/assumptions were made to arrive at the conclusions?
[/quote]

I got my data that suggests golf is in trouble from Scarborough Research national survey of thousands of Americans living in the top 77 DMA's. They ask about the respondent's interest in a bunch of different sports, PGA Tour being one of them.

The percentage of hardcore golf fans has stayed the same over the last 7 or so years. The percentage of respondents who said they don't care one bit about the PGA Tour crept up but not at an alarming rate. But the percentage of casual PGA Tour fans is falling off precipitously.

So yeah - there's a bit of a leap there but I would be reasonably confident that the number of Americans who play golf correlates to the number of Americans who care about the PGA Tour.

I think people and companies invested in the well being of the sport of golf are wise to start talking about this issue head on now as opposed to denying it and playing the blame game (economy), but at the same time I think the macro dynamics that are leading to the growing disinterest in golf can't necessarily be fixed by these stakeholders. There are larger forces at work here. People just don't have 5 or 6 or even 4 hours at a time on a weekend for something like this on a regular basis anymore.

The marital relationship and the parenting relationships have changed drastically for the American male in the last 40 years. It's a lot harder for guys to be guys (drinking and carousing with buddies while the wife handles all the kids) nowadays. Now it's volunteering as soccer coach, signing up the other kid for travel baseball and being at every one of them which is 60 extra games on top of regular little league and all star teams and recitals and yard work and yadda yadda yadda. Kinda the same reason why all those old school social clubs like Moose lodges are becoming a thing of the past.

The number of hours the average male now dedicate to the wife and to parenting has increased drastically (not saying it's bad - just noting it), and that has to come at the expense of whatever they were doing before with the time.

[thug the bunny]

[quote]So yeah - there's a bit of a leap there but I would be reasonably confident that the number of Americans who play golf correlates to the number of Americans who care about the PGA Tour. [/quote]

Kevin, that's a good example of what I was talking about - correlating data to results/conclusions. Is the correlation valid? Is it one to one? Etc...

I think the NGF's conclusions were based on numbers of rounds played in the last X years, but if that's the case, how did they correlate numbers of rounds to numbers of golfers? How exactly did they come up with 5 million less golfers?

[Auditor_Kevin]

I have no idea where the "5 million less" number came from. Maybe someone else here can help with that one.

[Sean2]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401279061' post='9380635']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401245794' post='9379145']
Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.
[/quote]

That seems like asking a realtor if a house is a good investment. But it could be true.
[/quote]

An independent group was hired to make an assessment.