Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[tatertot]

I clicked on this just to read Pepper's post. I wasn't disappointed.

[Bonneville85308]

Just another anecdote on the decline from here in Pennsylvania. Went out and played a local nine holer yesterday afternoon, which was a perfect day weather-wise. This course used to be fairly busy during the week, especially with seniors and beginners. I teed off and I was the only person on the whole course during the 9 holes I played. I can't remember the last time that happened.

[crkranz]

TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.

[crkranz]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406990210' post='9839829']
it is also a 'thank you' for their service to society over the years. .
[/quote]

Many of the seniors I know have more time and money then younger people. BTW, 'thank you' for the enormous national debt you left me and my kids to pay off.

[Bad9]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Not a criticism of you but your post brings up what I think is an interesting point. I often talk to, read stuff from parents who are stressed out from taking their kids to all of their activities. Invariably I think "imagine how the kid feels". I know a parents who have their kids (4-10yrs old) in activities seven days a week. All of the kids time is scheduled for everything except being a kid.

[farmer]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1407540635' post='9891583']
[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Not a criticism of you but your post brings up what I think is an interesting point. I often talk to, read stuff from parents who are stressed out from taking their kids to all of their activities. Invariably I think "imagine how the kid feels". I know a parents who have their kids (4-10yrs old) in activities seven days a week. All of the kids time is scheduled for everything except being a kid.
[/quote]Do the kids enjoy-really-having all their time and activities so scheduled? If you want to simplify your life, and theirs, then have them do one thing. That will ease the stress on them, and ease the stress on you and your wife.

[billh17]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406912742' post='9833367']
I don't like the word elite. It has negative implications; like suggesting an underlying, almost selfish purpose. For the sake of discussion, I'll use successful. Successful people started out by keeping the cost of golf, fancy cars and vacations and regularly eating out in proper perspective to their ability to earn and greater life goals. When they found success, they rewarded themselves with costly golf, etc., same was true for me.

During my youth, we drove cars we could afford, cheaply rented till we saved enough money to buy, didn't go into debt or out to dinner much, and went places that fit into our budgets. Always keeping in mind, the importance of building a good savings account. Back then, never once, do I recall anyone with a healthy outlook on life, knocking people that were successful and could afford golf. Why, everyone's goal was to be successful to some degree.

The 'rest', as mentioned in another post above, appear to have no concept of the aforementioned social culture which made America great. They seem to want it all now, without regard for taking the steps to build security and rewarding oneself after basic lifestyle priority's and values are met. I see it in my son's friends. They are living above their means, and some expect to golf too. I get its hard facing what's happening to golf, but just maybe its good too.

Contrary to what might be thought, I always saw golf as an earned reward, like other benefits in my life; the American dream. That's partly why I love America so much. The 'dream' can still be had too. Unfortunately, the Golf world is righting itself; it has to, as well as other segments. Yes, the economy plays a part in our ability to earn, but 'choices' and desire are always at the forefront for those that want it. The more I look at what's happened to golf; economically, golf has to go backwards a few steps before it can more forward, and that translates to higher golf costs for all of us. To be open, though I can afford higher golf costs, facing retirement I really don't like paying higher rates; I'd rather save. Golf is not dying, though its downturn affects all of us.
[/quote] sorry,but,I have lived here for the last 68 years,and your "social culture" isn't what made America great...and it is one of the perceptions which is hurting golf.the idea that someone is entitled because of their success is sorta in conflict with the whole idea of equality and fairness

[billh17]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406333975' post='9787027']
[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1406333599' post='9786985']
Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I[b]'m at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible,[/b] oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,
[/quote]

Do you actually mean this?
[/quote] maybe...just maybe...they may not want to appeal to lots of people younger crowds of today,like you.....with that attitude,do you really expect the older people to welcome you?

[billh17]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406232371' post='9777727']
^ I swear its just easier/catchier to blame this on Tiger Woods than it is to dissect what are actually the factors at play. Really disappointing that people -- even people inside this industry whose livelihoods depend upon golf -- are taking the lazy way out and in so many words saying, "we just need another Tiger...that's it...nothing we can do."
[/quote] great comment

[greerstyl]

[quote name='billh17' timestamp='1407545319' post='9892031']
[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406333975' post='9787027']
[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1406333599' post='9786985']
Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I[b]'m at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible,[/b] oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,
[/quote]

Do you actually mean this?
[/quote] maybe...just maybe...they may not want to appeal to lots of people younger crowds of today,like you.....with that attitude,do you really expect the older people to welcome you?
[/quote]

No I'm very respectful. Although the rant was accurate of that day. There are courses that are old mentality, obvious that's not working, and as golfers keep dying they need to be replaced with the next generation, other major companies already realized this... But my rant has already ended.

I do believe they need to get much ore digital though. Everyplace needs an online booking system

[natedd]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.

[Break81]

[quote name='billh17' timestamp='1407547061' post='9892193']
[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406232371' post='9777727']
^ I swear its just easier/catchier to blame this on Tiger Woods than it is to dissect what are actually the factors at play. Really disappointing that people -- even people inside this industry whose livelihoods depend upon golf -- are taking the lazy way out and in so many words saying, "we just need another Tiger...that's it...nothing we can do."
[/quote] great comment
[/quote]
True everyone can take their share of responsibility and grow the game organically. Still there is much truth that Tiger created a bubble much like the housing bubble. Golf's bubble had burst but if you look at the growth of golf over the course of history I would think golf it still ahead of where it would have been without Tiger.

Tiger brought in a whole new demographic of people that never could relate to the average white professional golfer.

[njlam]

Golf has always required a lot of focused time.

Golf has always been expensive (equipment/tee times/etc)

Raising a young family has always required focused time and been expensive.

Golf and raising a young family have always been on a collision course.

Hopefully, the young family wins.

This is why golf has historically been dominated by older people who have experienced some degree of financial success.

Why is it such a mystery why the game is not growing for younger people? Cost and other more important obligations are good reasons not to play golf when you can't afford it.

Golf is a wonderful past time for those who have the time and financial resources to enjoy it. Why encourage those who can't to get themselves into an unsustainable situation?

If it is meant to be, it is meant to be.

[cxx]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407516630' post='9888621']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406990210' post='9839829']
it is also a 'thank you' for their service to society over the years. .
[/quote]

Many of the seniors I know have more time and money then younger people. BTW, 'thank you' for the enormous national debt you left me and my kids to pay off.
[/quote]

I think that you (your generation) is responsible for most of it.

[cxx]

[quote name='billh17' timestamp='1407544263' post='9891917']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406912742' post='9833367']
I don't like the word elite. It has negative implications; like suggesting an underlying, almost selfish purpose. For the sake of discussion, I'll use successful. Successful people started out by keeping the cost of golf, fancy cars and vacations and regularly eating out in proper perspective to their ability to earn and greater life goals. When they found success, they rewarded themselves with costly golf, etc., same was true for me.

During my youth, we drove cars we could afford, cheaply rented till we saved enough money to buy, didn't go into debt or out to dinner much, and went places that fit into our budgets. Always keeping in mind, the importance of building a good savings account. Back then, never once, do I recall anyone with a healthy outlook on life, knocking people that were successful and could afford golf. Why, everyone's goal was to be successful to some degree.

The 'rest', as mentioned in another post above, appear to have no concept of the aforementioned social culture which made America great. They seem to want it all now, without regard for taking the steps to build security and rewarding oneself after basic lifestyle priority's and values are met. I see it in my son's friends. They are living above their means, and some expect to golf too. I get its hard facing what's happening to golf, but just maybe its good too.

Contrary to what might be thought, I always saw golf as an earned reward, like other benefits in my life; the American dream. That's partly why I love America so much. The 'dream' can still be had too. Unfortunately, the Golf world is righting itself; it has to, as well as other segments. Yes, the economy plays a part in our ability to earn, but 'choices' and desire are always at the forefront for those that want it. The more I look at what's happened to golf; economically, golf has to go backwards a few steps before it can more forward, and that translates to higher golf costs for all of us. To be open, though I can afford higher golf costs, facing retirement I really don't like paying higher rates; I'd rather save. Golf is not dying, though its downturn affects all of us.
[/quote] sorry,but,I have lived here for the last 68 years,and your "social culture" isn't what made America great...and it is one of the perceptions which is hurting golf.the idea that someone is entitled because of their success is sorta in conflict with the whole idea of equality and fairness
[/quote]

Maybe equality and fairness of opportunity. Not sure of the social aspects but the drive to excel is the fuel of economic development not the 9 to 5 clockpuncher mentality. It's the risk taking drivers that provide employment to these people. They are the ones living off the fat of the land.

[Bonneville85308]

I agree that courses need to "get digital" if they want to maintain business. There is only one course in my area that still doesn't have online tee times. I don't play there partly because of this (along with mandatory carts on weekend mornings) and I know others who avoid it for this reason. If you don't have 5 hours to play a round you need to be able to see how busy the course is when you select a time to tee off. If you call and ask how busy it is at a certain time, you get the standard "The 12:30pm time is open (or whatever) or just come on out and we'll get you on the tee". That's great, but not if foursomes teed off at every time for the preceding 3 hours. Likewise, if I'm going to come out at 5pm on a weeknight to get 18 in, I'm wasting my time if I can't see how many times are booked and gauge how long the round might take. But that's just me.

[cxx]

[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1407547252' post='9892217']
[quote name='billh17' timestamp='1407545319' post='9892031']
[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406333975' post='9787027']
[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1406333599' post='9786985']
Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I[b]'m at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible,[/b] oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,
[/quote]

Do you actually mean this?
[/quote] maybe...just maybe...they may not want to appeal to lots of people younger crowds of today,like you.....with that attitude,do you really expect the older people to welcome you?
[/quote]

No I'm very respectful. Although the rant was accurate of that day. There are courses that are old mentality, obvious that's not working, and as golfers keep dying they need to be replaced with the next generation, other major companies already realized this... But my rant has already ended.

I do believe they need to get much ore digital though. Everyplace needs an online booking system
[/quote]

That's kind of weird. A rant and an "I didn't really mean it". I'm pretty sure you do mean it.

There are not going to be many new golf courses built in the near future so if you are having a hard time getting a tee time, you might want to go somewhere where there are more golf courses and fewer people. I suppose if finding a place to play were really as off putting as you say, more people quitting would make some room for you. Good luck with that.

By the way, I see ads all the time for booking sites that specialize in people in your situation.

[cxx]

[quote name='njlam' timestamp='1407556494' post='9893181']
Golf has always required a lot of focused time.

Golf has always been expensive (equipment/tee times/etc)

Raising a young family has always required focused time and been expensive.

Golf and raising a young family have always been on a collision course.

Hopefully, the young family wins.

This is why golf has historically been dominated by older people who have experienced some degree of financial success.

Why is it such a mystery why the game is not growing for younger people? Cost and other more important obligations are good reasons not to play golf when you can't afford it.

Golf is a wonderful past time for those who have the time and financial resources to enjoy it. Why encourage those who can't to get themselves into an unsustainable situation?

If it is meant to be, it is meant to be.
[/quote]

It might be possible that a lot of the golfers falling out of the market started before starting families in the big upsurge. After starting a family, time and money constraints are pushing them out. I don't think much could be done about that.

It's been my experience that golf is less expensive and more available than ever. You should have seen it when there were way to few courses.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1407542674' post='9891763']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1407540635' post='9891583']
[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Not a criticism of you but your post brings up what I think is an interesting point. I often talk to, read stuff from parents who are stressed out from taking their kids to all of their activities. Invariably I think "imagine how the kid feels". I know a parents who have their kids (4-10yrs old) in activities seven days a week. All of the kids time is scheduled for everything except being a kid.
[/quote]Do the kids enjoy-really-having all their time and activities so scheduled? If you want to simplify your life, and theirs, then have them do one thing. That will ease the stress on them, and ease the stress on you and your wife.
[/quote]

Let me preface this post by saying "yes, I have two children of my own", they are now 18 and 21.

I think parents today go way overboard with "activities" for their kids - cheerleading, baseball, basketball, karate, etc. Many have two or three kids participating in two or three activities at all times. That's just insane! I think parents forget that they need their own activities, too.

We let our kids participate in the things that interested them, but there was always a limit. We made them choose one thing each season and focus on that: football in the fall, baseball in the spring, soccer in the summer, etc.

Here's an idea - take your kids out to that empty 9 hole golf course and get them playing golf. Then you have an activity that everyone can participate in TOGETHER.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407516630' post='9888621']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406990210' post='9839829']
it is also a 'thank you' for their service to society over the years. .
[/quote]

Many of the seniors I know have more time and money then younger people. BTW, 'thank you' for the enormous national debt you left me and my kids to pay off.
[/quote]So you are blaming the seniors for the national debt??? That's really quite a rude accusation to a group of Americans that actually worked hard for what they got, and didn't need the aid of smart phone and much of the technology that enamors the motivational challenged folks of today. I just can't get over how you just blamed seniors for what our wayward government has done. It's like me blaming the fork for making me fat, which I am not. The youth of today is sooo different then when I grew up, we actually we out of doors orally spoke words to each other, and didn't feel the need to text across the room to speak another. I guess I am to blame for the Nat debt, so let me have it!

[ratspros]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?

[marmooskapaul]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1407677959' post='9900559']
[quote name='njlam' timestamp='1407556494' post='9893181']
Golf has always required a lot of focused time.

Golf has always been expensive (equipment/tee times/etc)

Raising a young family has always required focused time and been expensive.

Golf and raising a young family have always been on a collision course.

Hopefully, the young family wins.

This is why golf has historically been dominated by older people who have experienced some degree of financial success.

Why is it such a mystery why the game is not growing for younger people? Cost and other more important obligations are good reasons not to play golf when you can't afford it.

Golf is a wonderful past time for those who have the time and financial resources to enjoy it. Why encourage those who can't to get themselves into an unsustainable situation?

If it is meant to be, it is meant to be.
[/quote]

It might be possible that a lot of the golfers falling out of the market started before starting families in the big upsurge. After starting a family, time and money constraints are pushing them out. I don't think much could be done about that.

It's been my experience that golf is less expensive and more available than ever. You should have seen it when there were way to few courses.
[/quote]

Golf is cheaper and more available around me than ever??? Seriously , you can play for $25 or less if you try. Just like fishing..there will always be fringe participants who look/find reasons not to play...That's just the way some people are???
Paul

[craniac76]

Does anybody work in Golf Equipment Retail business? How's the sales going this year?

[gtnike]

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1407680764' post='9900785']
[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407515980' post='9888555']
TIME. Married with 2 kids and there is no time to play. It is insane how busy my kids are with all their activities, that I wasn't when I was a kid. My 6 and 10yr olds play basketball, football and baseball. When I was a kid we played a dozen games of Y league basketball a year, my kid played 60 last year. Baseball was practically every day this summer. Granted this all our choice but times have changed and free time is hard to find. Most of my friends are in the same situation. People like me are spending their free time with their family instead of their friends.
[/quote]

Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?
[/quote]

I have 3 kids age 6, 4, and 2. Our rule is you play 1 sport per season. The two oldest are boys and both played baseball this spring. Baseball ended in mid June and so my wife and I played coed kickball this summer. Now in the fall the oldest is playing soccer and the middle son is playing fall baseball. I am anti travel teams. If you are good enough to travel, then you can travel with your middle and high school teams. As for golf both my boys have interest and tag along with me ro the par 3 course. But I don't have the patience to teach them golf so I am waiting until next year for the first tee program.

[mr_divots]

After years of complaining of down rounds, I see the local county courses are FINALLY accepting tee times from singles.
Yeah, not turning away business is a good start, golf biz!

[crkranz]

[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407548122' post='9892305']

Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.
[/quote]

It is a choice, no doubt. If your kids want to play at a high level they get left behind if they aren't doing it.

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1407680764' post='9900785']
Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?
[/quote]

We are dropping travel baseball, but he wants to do what his friends are doing and has no interest in golf. There is hope for the younger one though. I would much rather spend time doing what they want to do than forcing them to do what I want to do.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407696824' post='9902233']
After years of complaining of down rounds, I see the local county courses are FINALLY accepting tee times from singles.
Yeah, not turning away business is a good start, golf biz!
[/quote]

It's still hit or miss in the Chicago area. I'd estimate that roughly half of the courses do not allow a single to book a tee time.

Again, I have no problem if a course doesn't allow a single to book in an open 4-slot. However, once a twosome or threesome is booked in the slot, a single(s) should be allowed to fill out the remaining positions.

[proguy]

In 2000 I gave up playing golf for three years. I was tired of waiting all day to play each and every shot. I was waiting on 10 million new ****** bag golfers with there tiger woods head cover. Blah Blah Blah Tiger has done so much for golf. For who? For the pockets of the pros and manufactures but in reality has made playing the game worse for people. Great TV yes, but I am so happy playing golf in the last few years because all the tiger fare weather fans are gone. Ok Rant done.

[Startzel]

[quote name='crkranz' timestamp='1407767436' post='9908495']
[quote name='natedd' timestamp='1407548122' post='9892305']

Watching your kid (6 or 10 yrs old) play 60 youth basketball games isn't necessarily spending time with your family.

I agree with the guy who said your time deficit is a choice.
[/quote]

It is a choice, no doubt. If your kids want to play at a high level they get left behind if they aren't doing it.

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1407680764' post='9900785']
Why don't you get your kids to drop one of the other sports and get them into golf. Both are old enough to play par three courses. Playing golf WITH your kids has to be funner then watching them play something else doesn't it?
[/quote]

We are dropping travel baseball, but he wants to do what his friends are doing and has no interest in golf. There is hope for the younger one though. I would much rather spend time doing what they want to do than forcing them to do what I want to do.
[/quote]

This is the sad thing about American sports. The parents have to invest more into training a kid than they would get back even in the unlikely chance the child receive a full scholarship in college.

Back home in the UK, if your child has talent the football clubs will get them in their academies at a young age and give them access to the best coaching.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1407768902' post='9908687']
[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1407696824' post='9902233']
After years of complaining of down rounds, I see the local county courses are FINALLY accepting tee times from singles.
Yeah, not turning away business is a good start, golf biz!
[/quote]

It's still hit or miss in the Chicago area. I'd estimate that roughly half of the courses do not allow a single to book a tee time.

Again, I have no problem if a course doesn't allow a single to book in an open 4-slot. However, once a twosome or threesome is booked in the slot, a single(s) should be allowed to fill out the remaining positions.
[/quote]
Totally agree. They waited so long, they are allowing singles at least during the week to nab open 4some spots. Hopefully they didn't wait too long to change their policies. But with rounds and revenues being reported down for years, they shoulda done it LONG ago. So obvious, but these are munis run by the govenrment. Surprise!