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The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end


pmo09

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425661606' post='11090383']
[b]No, people like you brought on this speculation. People like you who want to see him taken down, but try to convince those around you that you are only presenting them with possibilities.[/b]
[b]Too bad you can't hide your conviction in the matter. It is all too telling.[/b]



People were speculating at every major sports news outlet in the US long before I ever thought to get involved in the discussion. Like the other gentleman here, I got involved with the discussion because of all of the outright misconceptions people have about both PED's and this story.

Funny, you object when others speculate about Tiger's reasoning, yet willingly speculate yourself about our reasons for joining the discussion. That is defined by Webster as hypocrisy. Here is another thing, trying to drag down your adversary in any debate is the first sign that you haven't much to offer in rebuttal. Must be frustrating.
[/quote]
You mean like you just tried to do?
I'm looking for evidence. No one has it. I don't like speculation. You have provided a ton of it. I suggest a reason for your speculation. You accuse me of speculating and then you belittle. What you got to offer besides talk of needing to let the little people know? ( The same tactic used by the press, btw). While we all thank you very kindly for all the info provided on PEDs, I would ask you to try not to drag your own adversaries into the same pit you yourself created.
Bring the evidence or you have nothing further to offer.

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[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425660525' post='11090255']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425659092' post='11090117']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425657649' post='11089961']
PED's do not help PLAYING Golf. PED's only help with strength based sports.
[/quote]

Do you even care to read other posts in this thread?
[u][b]P[/b][/u]erformance
[u][b]E[/b][/u]nhancing
[u][b]D[/b][/u]rugs

Performance.
Not Muscle Building Drugs, not Strength Enhancing Drugs.

Do you have any idea what performance enhancing drugs are? For the umpteenth time: They are not just chemicals which make your muscles bigger or stronger.

Read, and make sure that you read further than Chapters S1 and S2, and take special note of chapters S6 to S9 and P1 and P2.

[url="https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf"]https://wada-main-pr...ted-list-en.pdf[/url]

(And, yeah, ever since golf decided to become Olympic again, that's the law, plain and simple. Golf isn't like the NFL anymore, which can do whatever it sees fit.)

I honestly don't know where that myth about what is a PED and what is not comes from.
[/quote]

In that entire list which one of the substances can help in PLAYING golf ???? simple question really .... Oh and you still dont have proof Tiger took any PEDs
[/quote]

All the substances which increase stamina and all the substances which enhance focus can help in playing golf, just like they can help in sports like biathlon or archery or like they can help in performing in an exam in college.
And I never claimed that I have any proof that Tiger Woods took any PEDs. I am simply in this discussion because I want to crush the myth that only substances which make your muscles bigger are PEDs.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425653138' post='11089459']
Like I said, if Tiger didn't want people to think he might have used HGH, he shouldn't have hired Dr. Galea. He brought much of this on himself. His self inflicted wounds are a trend with him.
[/quote]

That would only be a valid point if Tiger consulted Galea after his conviction, or knowing that he was under investigation.

As I understand it he was a successful and respected Dr until this became public knowledge.

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In 63 visits it's hard to believe Woods wasn't aware of this guys side business.

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[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664306' post='11090713']
In 63 visits it's hard to believe Woods wasn't aware of this guys side business.
[/quote]
Doesn't mean he availed himself of it.
Galea is well known and well respected in the areas of expertise required by Woods.

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[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425662774' post='11090535']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425660525' post='11090255']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425659092' post='11090117']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425657649' post='11089961']
PED's do not help PLAYING Golf. PED's only help with strength based sports.
[/quote]

Do you even care to read other posts in this thread?
[u][b]P[/b][/u]erformance
[u][b]E[/b][/u]nhancing
[u][b]D[/b][/u]rugs

Performance.
Not Muscle Building Drugs, not Strength Enhancing Drugs.

Do you have any idea what performance enhancing drugs are? For the umpteenth time: They are not just chemicals which make your muscles bigger or stronger.

Read, and make sure that you read further than Chapters S1 and S2, and take special note of chapters S6 to S9 and P1 and P2.

[url="https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf"]https://wada-main-pr...ted-list-en.pdf[/url]

(And, yeah, ever since golf decided to become Olympic again, that's the law, plain and simple. Golf isn't like the NFL anymore, which can do whatever it sees fit.)

I honestly don't know where that myth about what is a PED and what is not comes from.
[/quote]

In that entire list which one of the substances can help in PLAYING golf ???? simple question really .... Oh and you still dont have proof Tiger took any PEDs
[/quote]

All the substances which increase stamina and all the substances which enhance focus can help in playing golf, just like they can help in sports like biathlon or archery or like they can help in performing in an exam in college.
And I never claimed that I have any proof that Tiger Woods took any PEDs. I am simply in this discussion because I want to crush the myth that only substances which make your muscles bigger are PEDs.
[/quote]

Besides, here are a few more questions:
Why do you think Ben Johnson and other sprinters took PEDs (the sort of PEDs everybody here thinks of first)?
To become stronger or to become quicker?
Do you think that quicker muscles are beneficial to playing golf?

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is acceptable to be suspicious.

I have absolutely no issue with anyone who thinks he was clean. None!

What is frustrating is posts condemning suspicion, and claiming the whole thing to be some kind of personal bias against Woods. It's not our fault the guy looks dirty as hell.

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[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425664674' post='11090751']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425662774' post='11090535']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425660525' post='11090255']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1425659092' post='11090117']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425657649' post='11089961']
PED's do not help PLAYING Golf. PED's only help with strength based sports.
[/quote]

Do you even care to read other posts in this thread?
[u][b]P[/b][/u]erformance
[u][b]E[/b][/u]nhancing
[u][b]D[/b][/u]rugs

Performance.
Not Muscle Building Drugs, not Strength Enhancing Drugs.

Do you have any idea what performance enhancing drugs are? For the umpteenth time: They are not just chemicals which make your muscles bigger or stronger.

Read, and make sure that you read further than Chapters S1 and S2, and take special note of chapters S6 to S9 and P1 and P2.

[url="https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf"]https://wada-main-pr...ted-list-en.pdf[/url]

(And, yeah, ever since golf decided to become Olympic again, that's the law, plain and simple. Golf isn't like the NFL anymore, which can do whatever it sees fit.)

I honestly don't know where that myth about what is a PED and what is not comes from.
[/quote]

In that entire list which one of the substances can help in PLAYING golf ???? simple question really .... Oh and you still dont have proof Tiger took any PEDs
[/quote]

All the substances which increase stamina and all the substances which enhance focus can help in playing golf, just like they can help in sports like biathlon or archery or like they can help in performing in an exam in college.
And I never claimed that I have any proof that Tiger Woods took any PEDs. I am simply in this discussion because I want to crush the myth that only substances which make your muscles bigger are PEDs.
[/quote]

Besides, here are a few more questions:
Why do you think Ben Johnson and other sprinters took PEDs (the sort of PEDs everybody here thinks of first)?
To become stronger or to become quicker?
Do you think that quicker muscles are beneficial to playing golf?
[/quote]

Good questions. Do you believe quicker muscles are beneficial to golf, and if so , please explain how your core (rotary motion muscles) are affected by PEDs ???

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[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]
How does PEDs help in Golf please ?

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All of you guys clamoring, "Proof, proof! Where's the proof?", need to remember that this thread is about [i]speculation[/i]. Besides, how much fun would it be if the facts were undeniable?

I think I'll start a thread with a poll, asking, "Is Tiger Woods - A) God, or B) Just an idol.

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[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665005' post='11090795']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]
How does PEDs help in Golf please ?
[/quote]

For Goodness' sake, man, Google. Read. Research. At least go back through this entire thread and read Mahamilto's posts. He apparently has [i]real life[/i] experience in the subject.

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[quote name='mwkbmw' timestamp='1425665244' post='11090835']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665005' post='11090795']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]
How does PEDs help in Golf please ?
[/quote]

For Goodness' sake, man, Google. Read. Research. At least go back through this entire thread and read Mahamilto's posts. He apparently has [i]real life[/i] experience in the subject.
[/quote]

I have and hence my question. How does PED's help playing golf ? do you know ?? maybe you can answer since you seem to agree

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[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]

Fine to be suspicious and you have mentioned some interesting info on the topic.

But I think some people think that because TW saw Galea, he is guilty. But Galea was a pioneer in the treatment he gave TW and provided it to many athletes without PEDs.

The FBI investigated, no reason for him to lie (if he does and gets pinched on it, now you have the FBI looking to really kick your butt) and every reason to give up all his info. Wouldn't you think the FBI would make it clear that if he gave TW PEDs, he has every interest in revealing it and is screwed if he does not and it turns out he lied?

So, sure, be suspicious. But understand why the *facts* suggest that not only is Galea not evidence he took PEDs

He is actually evidence he did *not*

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[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665005' post='11090795']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]
How does PEDs help in Golf please ?
[/quote]

There's no way you're serious, right?

To think PEDs wouldn't improve someone's athletic ability, regardless of sport, is just insane. If they didn't wok, why would they be banned to maintain a level field of play? If they didn't work, why risk being caught taking them?

Please reread my other incredibly through posts from much earlier in the thread.

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[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1425665384' post='11090855']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

I'm just saying at some point Galea revealed his side business to them... Why not to Woods as well, during one of the 63 visits!

63!

You can think Woods took PEDs, you can think he didn't. None of that matters.

But please be reasonable enough to see why it is reasonable to be suspicious.
[/quote]

Fine to be suspicious and you have mentioned some interesting info on the topic.

But I think some people think that because TW saw Galea, he is guilty. But Galea was a pioneer in the treatment he gave TW and provided it to many athletes without PEDs.

The FBI investigated, no reason for him to lie (if he does and gets pinched on it, now you have the FBI looking to really kick your butt) and every reason to give up all his info. Wouldn't you think the FBI would make it clear that if he gave TW PEDs, he has every interest in revealing it and is screwed if he does not and it turns out he lied?

So, sure, be suspicious. But understand why the *facts* suggest that not only is Galea not evidence he took PEDs

He is actually evidence he did *not*
[/quote]

I have little faith in the statements of individuals with no credibility. Namely Galea and Woods.

He turned over a list of names, Woods was on the list. I really doubt Galea would be dumb enough to keep a file incriminating himself. They didn't catch him because of information in his office. They caught him because he was taking (or his assistants) HGH across international borders.

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[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665084' post='11090807']
All of this is good fun, but honestly if PEDs helped in golf in ANY WAY at all, would it not be reasonable to think that many golfers would use them , and we would see an increase in performance and winning..
[/quote]


How do you know more golfers aren't using PED's? It isn't like the Tour's testing policy is very effective, so how do you know? Maybe dozens of them are. I'm not saying they are, but I don't trust the Tour's testing policy to catch superstars cheating.

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At this point guys, I'm done.

The information reached those who wanted/needed to hear it.

Enjoy defending a guy you don't know who lacks credibility.

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[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1425662117' post='11090435']

Snip:


[b]"I tell you categorically that Tiger did not receive either banned or performance-enhancing drugs when treating with Dr. Galea," said [size=6][color=#FF0000]attorney[/color][/size] Rod Personius in an email to the Daily News."[/b]


[/quote]

Dang. Never known one of them to lie.

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665758' post='11090893']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665084' post='11090807']
All of this is good fun, but honestly if PEDs helped in golf in ANY WAY at all, would it not be reasonable to think that many golfers would use them , and we would see an increase in performance and winning..
[/quote]


How do you know more golfers aren't using PED's? It isn't like the Tour's testing policy is very effective, so how do you know? Maybe dozens of them are. I'm not saying they are, but I don't trust the Tour's testing policy to catch superstars cheating.
[/quote]

Sure but again how does PEDs help in golf ?? simple question folks,,,

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[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425665831' post='11090897']
At this point guys, I'm done.

The information reached those who wanted/needed to hear it.

Enjoy defending a guy you don't know who lacks credibility.
[/quote]

The only person you've convinced probably was already convinced and that is you ....

You are butt hurt because Tiger cheated on his wife, that is your right to feel that way. But dont launch accusations against him in regards to something that has ZERO facts in support of your case. PEDs do NOT help in golf. Golf is a coordination sport not a physical sport.

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665664' post='11090879']
[b]As I understand it he was a successful and respected Dr until this became public knowledge.[/b]



Everyone is respected BEFORE they get caught, charged and convicted. Bernie Madhoff was respected before he got caught too.
[/quote]
Madhof was respected prior to conviction because he covered his main source of income which came fraudulently.
Galea was well respected for his recognised expertise in the field of medicine which was his main source of income until he began dabbling on the dark side and was convicted for THOSE activities. I believe he is still widely respected for his medical contributions. Madhoff is respected for nothing, as his life was a complete fraud.
Big difference, bad comaprison.

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665664' post='11090879']

Everyone is respected BEFORE they get caught, charged and convicted. Bernie Madhoff was respected before he got caught too.
[/quote]

You've missed my point and don't seem to have made one of your own.

How does Tiger's decision to consult a respected doctor with no convictions reflect badly on him? what vetting process should he have used, in your opinion?

Are you also saying that people who did business with Madhoff before it became apparent he was a criminal should have instinctively known he was a criminal?

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[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1425666342' post='11090959']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665664' post='11090879']
[b]As I understand it he was a successful and respected Dr until this became public knowledge.[/b]



Everyone is respected BEFORE they get caught, charged and convicted. Bernie Madhoff was respected before he got caught too.
[/quote]
Mahof was respected prior to conviction because he covered his main source of income which came fraudulently.
Galea was well respected for his recognised expertise in the field of medicine which was his main source of income until he began dabbling on the dark side and was convicted for THOSE activities. I believe he is still widely respected for his medical contributions. Madhoff is respected for nothing, as his life was a complete fraud.
Big difference, bad comaprison.
[/quote]

Directed at Smith65 : Both men were convicted with evidence. Do you have evidence that Tiger or any other Major winner for that matter took PEDs ???

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[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425661189' post='11090329']
[indent=3][b]Earlier you cited the 63 visits as proof because the platelet therapy cannot be done that often, correct? In your article does it say 63 "visits" or 63 "treatments"? I can visit my doctor, who may or may not have a shady side-I am not certain, 63 times and only get treatment 10 times. The other times are to test for progress. Is that likely as proof in your book[/b][/indent]


[indent=3]I cited the 63 visits because that is how many visits are known at this time. Known because of the investigation into Galea finding out about his14 visits plus the investigation done by the Florida Dept. of Health revealing the 49 vists by Lindsay. So the 63 visits I accept.[/indent]

[indent=3]I spoke about that number of visits relative to what they claimed the visits were for because I do not believe it all adds up, or makes sense. The two doctors saw Tiger for a little over 1 year. Since the normal platelate spinning therapy calls for getting the injecting and then having 6 weeks before the next injection, and typically only having a handful of injections in total, I think the explanation is patently absurd.[/indent]

[indent=3]But I do concede that it is possible in the sense that almost anything is possible that he had only a handful of visits for injections from the HGH docs and all the rest of them were for progress evaluations. Anything is possible.[/indent]

[indent=3]I would not expect your doctor or any other doctor to be "shady", to use your word. Now, if he got himself arrested for PED smuggling, and also with added charges for lieing to US authorities, then all bets are off and yes, I would then think he was shady. You seem to assume this Canadian PED peddler who was charged by two governments is squeaky clean. Which of our two positions is on less sturdy ground?[/indent]

[indent=3]1. Doctor with known ties to PED's is caught and criminally charged by two different national governments is believed to be shady[/indent]

[indent=3]OR[/indent]

[indent=3]2. Doctor with known ties to PED's is caught and criminally charged by two different national governments is believed to be squeaky clean[/indent]

[indent=3]It is the latter, not the former, that lacks sound reasoning.[/indent]
[/quote]
Now you really have me confused. Do you think it was Tiger or Lindsay cheating? You have repeatedly cited the 63 visits but now just 14 of them are Tiger's? If, as you say, six weeks between platelet therapies is the norm would it not be likely for the doctor to visit with Tiger 14 times in a year between actual treatments and after care? Let's say Tiger knew about Galea's other business. Perhaps he felt Galea was the best option for treatment he wanted, the platelet therapy, and as long as he knew he was clean and therefore would pass any test, did not care.

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[b]Fine to be suspicious and you have mentioned some interesting info on the topic. But I think some people think that because TW saw Galea, he is guilty. [/b]

What is being stated is that because Tiger chose galea the suspicion is there. Maybe the guilt, maybe not, but definetely the suspicion.


[b]But Galea was a pioneer in the treatment he gave TW and provided it to many athletes without PEDs.[/b]

By the time Tiger sought out platelate spinning nearly every ortho practice in Florida was doing it with success. The problem isn't that Dr. Galea did platelate spinning for some athletes without administering PED's to them, it is that he did administer PED's to numerous (way more than just two or three) athletes who denied it only to later get caught in part because the drug testing they were subject to is far more strict than that which Tiger was subjected.



[b]The FBI investigated, no reason for him to lie (if he does and gets pinched on it, now you have the FBI looking to really kick your butt) and every reason to give up all his info. Wouldn't you think the FBI would make it clear that if he gave TW PEDs, he has every interest in revealing it and is screwed if he does not and it turns out he lied?[/b]

The US attorney charged him with lieing, so clearly they believe him a liar. The Canadian Gov't also believed him a liar. Why they plea bargained with him only they and he know.


[b]So, sure, be suspicious. But understand why the *facts* suggest that not only is Galea not evidence he took PEDs He is actually evidence he did *not*[/b]

There is plenty of real evidence to believe both Galea and Tiger have either lied or misrepresented facts. It is also a fact that Galea dispensed PED's. It is yet another fact that out of all the doctors Tiger chose to do platelate spinning, he chose one that dispenses PED's. Thus there is circumstantial evidence to give people the impression Tiger may have taken them himself, even if that can't be proven beyond all doubt.


I can't prove Tiger bonked any more girls than the 15 or 18 that surfaced after Elin hit him with that 9 iron and kicked him out of the house in 2009, but I believe he probably did. Wouldn't shock me if the number was a lot higher than 15. Do you totally dismiss this notion out of hand simply because no one here can prove it beyond all doubt? If you are honest, you believe it too. Tiger is like Superman to some of you, so you probably have this idea he bonked 100 or more girls back in those days. To suggest that this number of chick bonking would be impossible is to suggest it is impossible he took PED's. It is the same thing.

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[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425666120' post='11090927']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665758' post='11090893']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665084' post='11090807']
All of this is good fun, but honestly if PEDs helped in golf in ANY WAY at all, would it not be reasonable to think that many golfers would use them , and we would see an increase in performance and winning..
[/quote]


How do you know more golfers aren't using PED's? It isn't like the Tour's testing policy is very effective, so how do you know? Maybe dozens of them are. I'm not saying they are, but I don't trust the Tour's testing policy to catch superstars cheating.
[/quote]

Sure but again how does PEDs help in golf ?? simple question folks,,,
[/quote]
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425666282' post='11090947']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425665831' post='11090897']
At this point guys, I'm done.

The information reached those who wanted/needed to hear it.

Enjoy defending a guy you don't know who lacks credibility.
[/quote]

The only person you've convinced probably was already convinced and that is you ....

You are butt hurt because Tiger cheated on his wife, that is your right to feel that way. But dont launch accusations against him in regards to something that has ZERO facts in support of your case. PEDs do NOT help in golf. Golf is a coordination sport not a physical sport.
[/quote]

Don't you need to get back to your Tiger shrine? If you want answers to how PED's work, then get off your soapbox and READ!

How in the world do you come up with the "butthurt" accusation? Have you not even read any of his posts? I guess next time you will accuse him of being racist. That's how it works when you do not have any logical arguments to make, just irrational, emotional accusations.

Now, run along. Make sure you polish those Tiger posters on your wall. Make sure you get all of the spots off.

Callaway Rogue 10.5
Callaway 3Deep w/PX 6.0
Ping i20 2 Hy & Idea Pro 4 Hy
Ping i25 5-UW
Scotty Cameron Notchback
Ping Tour Gorge 54 & Vokey SM8 58

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[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425664753' post='11090763']
So all of the athletes Galea did give PEDs to... How did they find out?

[/quote]

I don't know the protocol for these things, but perhaps they asked?

I think someone in Tiger's position wouldn't be stupid enough to risk doing something dodgy after having such a great career already. The risk/reward doesn't make it worth it. But that's just speculation on my part.

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