The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[playa]

I have always suspected tger may have taken foreign substances to enhance his body, but not necessarily as a PED. I doubt there are many guys who work out as hard as tiger did for so long who do not take something. When guys train like tiger, it bcomes a body image obsession. Every guy I know who works out, including me when I was only at the very bottom of the serious gym rat scale, takes all sorts of protein powders and supplements to get better results. It would not be surprising at all to learn that there ger took it one step further. Not saying he definitely did juice cause I have never seen him in person, just saying it would be quite normal for a guy as dedicated to working out as him to have taken sometuing extra to get better results and better recovery. And I definitely think if he was juicing it would have been for vanity reasons only, not to enhance his golf.

[slimeone]

Personally I suspect PED abuse is rife in golf. Cheating inevitably comes down to risk vs reward, and in the world of professional sports, golf provides an unprecedented opportunity for cheaters. Huge potential earnings (prize/sponsorship money), an arbitrary and non-transparent testing and punishment regime and a desperate desire by the governing bodies to protect the image of the game at all costs. When it's that easy to get away with, you'd be a fool not to cheat.

Considering the depths of depravity and the enormity of lies Tiger was willing to perpetrate to his wife, his claims of innocence are virtually meaningless. He's a sociopathic liar. In fact if you look at it objectively, that crackpot who went on radio to out Tiger probably had more credibility. With the link to Dr Shady it's just a bad, bad look for Tiger. I actually quite like Tiger (as a player and persona) but I have no pretense that he's an ethically sound individual.

[dpb5031]

Wow, there are some really well thought-out opinions and well-expressed points made in this thread, and it's remained mostly civil! The salient points on both sides of the argument have already been presented, so I won't beat that to death any further.

It was suggested though, that Earl's passing was the beginning of Tiger's slide. I think this may have been true in terms of some of his indiscretions and poor decision making, but then again, Earl was known to have made similar indiscretions as far as the infidelity part.

I think Tiger's real unraveling was/is related to Earl, but not just his passing. I think it truly began after the fire hydrant deal. The entire image and mystique, carefully cultivated and nurtured by Earl, and then further massaged, enhanced, and groomed by Steinberg, came crashing down the day he hit that hydrant and all of the other dirt came out.

The destruction of his image, and the idea that he let his parents down....especially his dad, had to be devastating to him. All of those lofty and seemingly unrealistic expectations, many publicly declared. Of course, in my view Earl placed unrealistic pressure on Tiger to live up to his proclamations. Remember the whole, "my son is going to do more for humanity than Gandhi, etc.,.."?

When the dirt came out and the image came crashing down, Tiger failed his dad, and disgraced his mom, lost his family, and destroyed his public persona. When you've got all the money in the world, what else is left.

Failing his parents and seeing his public image decimated had to be devastating to Tiger's psyche. Everything changed in an instant. The trauma from this type of event can be as real and significant as a major physical trauma. It wouldnt surprise me if Tiger has suffered since then with what Psychologists would diagnose as "Adjustment Disorder."

[golfortennis]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1425476008' post='11074713']
Wow, there are some really well thought-out opinions and well-expressed points made in this thread, and it's remained mostly civil! The salient points on both sides of the argument have already been presented, so I won't beat that to death any further.

It was suggested though, that Earl's passing was the beginning of Tiger's slide. I think this may have been true in terms of some of his indiscretions and poor decision making, but then again, Earl was known to have made similar indiscretions as far as the infidelity part.

I think Tiger's real unraveling was/is related to Earl, but not just his passing. I think it truly began after the fire hydrant deal. The entire image and mystique, carefully cultivated and nurtured by Earl, and then further massaged, enhanced, and groomed by Steinberg, came crashing down the day he hit that hydrant and all of the other dirt came out.

The destruction of his image, and the idea that he let his parents down....especially his dad, had to be devastating to him. All of those lofty and seemingly unrealistic expectations, many publicly declared. Of course, in my view Earl placed unrealistic pressure on Tiger to live up to his proclamations. Remember the whole, "my son is going to do more for humanity than Gandhi, etc.,.."?

When the dirt came out and the image came crashing down, Tiger failed his dad, and disgraced his mom, lost his family, and destroyed his public persona. When you've got all the money in the world, what else is left.

Failing his parents and seeing his public image decimated had to be devastating to Tiger's psyche. Everything changed in an instant. The trauma from this type of event can be as real and significant as a major physical trauma. It wouldnt surprise me if Tiger has suffered since then with what Psychologists would diagnose as "Adjustment Disorder."
[/quote]

Interesting. I've always thought the fire hydrant's real consequence to him was that now that things were out in the open, the sportswriters who protected him couldn't do so anywhere near to the degree they did before, and maintain their appearance of objectiveness. It's such a mental game that I think knowing your press conferences are going to be only about your birdies and bogeys, "how did you feel on the range", etc., was a great comfort to him. Then that was gone. While the media is still mostly sycophantic when he is involved, I think things like Jenkins' column *never* would have happened pre-fire hydrant. Some editor or someone would have nixed it.

[Smith65]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1425477624' post='11074839']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1425476008' post='11074713']
Wow, there are some really well thought-out opinions and well-expressed points made in this thread, and it's remained mostly civil! The salient points on both sides of the argument have already been presented, so I won't beat that to death any further.

It was suggested though, that Earl's passing was the beginning of Tiger's slide. I think this may have been true in terms of some of his indiscretions and poor decision making, but then again, Earl was known to have made similar indiscretions as far as the infidelity part.

I think Tiger's real unraveling was/is related to Earl, but not just his passing. I think it truly began after the fire hydrant deal. The entire image and mystique, carefully cultivated and nurtured by Earl, and then further massaged, enhanced, and groomed by Steinberg, came crashing down the day he hit that hydrant and all of the other dirt came out.

The destruction of his image, and the idea that he let his parents down....especially his dad, had to be devastating to him. All of those lofty and seemingly unrealistic expectations, many publicly declared. Of course, in my view Earl placed unrealistic pressure on Tiger to live up to his proclamations. Remember the whole, "my son is going to do more for humanity than Gandhi, etc.,.."?

When the dirt came out and the image came crashing down, Tiger failed his dad, and disgraced his mom, lost his family, and destroyed his public persona. When you've got all the money in the world, what else is left.

Failing his parents and seeing his public image decimated had to be devastating to Tiger's psyche. Everything changed in an instant. The trauma from this type of event can be as real and significant as a major physical trauma. It wouldnt surprise me if Tiger has suffered since then with what Psychologists would diagnose as "Adjustment Disorder."
[/quote]

Interesting. I've always thought the fire hydrant's real consequence to him was that now that things were out in the open, the sportswriters who protected him couldn't do so anywhere near to the degree they did before, and maintain their appearance of objectiveness. It's such a mental game that I think knowing your press conferences are going to be only about your birdies and bogeys, "how did you feel on the range", etc., was a great comfort to him. Then that was gone. While the media is still mostly sycophantic when he is involved, I think things like Jenkins' column *never* would have happened pre-fire hydrant. Some editor or someone would have nixed it.
[/quote]


I agree. I think one of Tiger's main edges prior to all the scandals was his psychological well being and the aura of invincibility he maintained. Like Samson losing his hair, once Tiger's true persona became known, he himself had a new self image that was nowhere near as powerful as the one that was stripped away. In short, he can't summon up the prior greatness on demand any longer. It just isn't there for him.

[Smith65]

slimeone is one of the few people who actually get it.

The PGA Tour testing policy is weak when compared to the testing policies of virtually any other sports organization. Interviews with players make it clear that 1) there is no off site testing 2) the testing they do utilize is predictable 3) the Tour policy is to not disclose anything except positive tests for known banned substances. I would go out on a limb and suggest that if Tiger were taking one of the substances that got Dr. Galea arrested, HGH, that short of him being caught on video there would be no way he'd ever get caught.
The NCAA, NFL, MLB, The IOC, FIFA …etc. all have much stronger anti doping policies.

You also mention his lies about the extra marital infidelities. We know at a minimum that Tiger has been evasive at best about the details of his relationship with Galea. How do we know this? Consider this timeline.

September 2009 - Mary Anne Catalano, then assistant to Dr. Galea, is caught at the US - Canada border in Buffalo, NY with a bagful of medical supplies, including growth hormone. Dr. Galea's name comes to light as he emerges as a key target in a Federal probe. The investigation would reveal the names of 23 athletes treated by Galea, including Tiger Woods. In the documents obtained by ESPN, Catalano told authorities she witnessed Galea inject a cocktail mixture containing Nutropin [growth hormone] into the injured knees of "at least seven athletes" while in the U.S. There is no approved test to determine HGH use, but the substance is banned by the major professional sports leagues. Some insight into what Catalano told authorities was provided in support of a warrant filed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to search Galea's office on the day of his arrest. Information on what was retrieved during the search on Oct. 15 remains unavailable, though the warrant indicated investigators were seeking computer files as well as patient, business and financial records. Authorities said Catalano told them that Galea kept separate files on his professional-athlete patients, and in some instances billed them under a separate company called Galea Investments Inc. She also identified where in the Toronto office he stored HGH, which requires refrigeration, and Actovegin.
[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5198475"]http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5198475[/url]

Feb. - March 2010 - This is the time period where Tiger's story about all the extra marital affairs has "evolved" so many times that many media outlets had to create timelines, like the one I am creating here, just so that sports fans could keep track of all the changing news. A pattern emerges. Tiger's story keeps changing, but only after additional news surfaces. In other words, you are only going to know anything if it comes to light from someone else coming forward, Tiger himself isn't going to tell you anything. The distrust in Tiger gets so bad that Tiger hires former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer (who had also attempted to rehab Mark McGwire's image) to manage his message. But that only made things worse. Fleischer would quickly step aside amid claims his very presence gave the impression Woods had something to hide.
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2010/03/22/woods-did/"]http://www.foxnews.c...3/22/woods-did/[/url]

April 1, 2010 - By now it is known that Tiger Woods had been a client of Dr. Galea, but not much else is known. Tiger has at this time claimed his treatments from Galea were for blood spinning only, but the true extent of his relationship with Dr. Galea is unknown. And no one knows about Galea's partner Dr. Lindsay just yet either. The details of the relationships are unknown because Tiger nor Galea or Lindsay are speaking on the subject. Brad Faxon of all people asks Tiger to talk about the relationship. Brad says in an interview "Come Clean about Performance Enhancing Drugs"
[url="http://www.examiner.com/article/brad-faxon-to-tiger-woods-come-clean-about-performance-enhancing-drugs"]http://www.examiner....enhancing-drugs[/url]


July 2011 - Galea avoids trial by accepting guilty plea agreement from Federal prosecutors. There is an important distinction here with Galea's plea agreement - the avoidance of discovery. Federal agents stated they had a slam dunk case against Galea, so who knows what records they actually had/have on him and the athletes he had treated. Galea was caught trying to bring HGH into the US, so one wonders why he would attempt such an illegal act if he did not intend to administer it to the athletes he was treating.


June 2012 - More than two years have gone by since Brad Faxon suggested Tiger should come clean about his relationship with Galea, but Tiger has kept mum on the subject. In June 2012 the Hank Haney - Jamie Diaz co-authored book about Haney's tumultuous 6 year relationship with Tiger hits the book stores. Tiger is upset about the book's details, but he probably should have been relieved because Haney claims no knowledge of Woods and PED's and, and this is important, claims knowledge of only 5 or 6 visits to Tiger from Galea. Citing Florida Dept. of Health investigative records, this claim of so few visits would later be stated in a book written by Tim Elfrink and Gus Garcia Roberts to be untrue, but does Tiger feel the need in 2012 to correct the record on the number of visits as suggested by his former swing coach Haney? I have never seen it. And why would he? His past history suggests he isn't ever going to say anything about this subject.
[url="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/sports/os-mike-bianchi-hank-haney-0403-20120402_1_galea-hank-haney-tiger-woods"]http://articles.orla...ney-tiger-woods[/url]


July 2014 - Two years went by after Faxon asked Tiger to come clean, and then two more years goes by while the world believes Tiger saw Dr. Galea only a handful of times. Tiger basically avoids the subject like the plague. But now a new book comes out that illustrates the prior claims are woefully inadequate in explaining the complicated relationship. Tiger Woods paid Canadian human growth hormone guru Anthony Galea and an associate almost $200,000 for 63 visits to the golfer’s home between September of 2008 and October of 2009, according to a recently released book that raises new questions about the drugs and treatment the Toronto sports physician provided the four-time Masters champion. Galea received more than $76,000 for visiting Woods 14 times while Woods recovered from knee surgery between January and August of 2009, according to “Blood Sport” by Tim Elfrink and Gus Garcia-Roberts. The book also cites a Florida Department of Health investigation that found Mark Lindsay, Galea’s associate, charged Woods more than $118,000 for 49 visits.
[url="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/tiger-woods-spent-200k-hgh-guru-doc-new-book-article-1.1860280"]http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1860280[/url]

The story keeps evolving over time, so it is hardly surprising that golf fans speculate about this.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='slimeone' timestamp='1425465740' post='11074325']
Personally I suspect PED abuse is rife in golf. Cheating inevitably comes down to risk vs reward, and in the world of professional sports, golf provides an unprecedented opportunity for cheaters. Huge potential earnings (prize/sponsorship money), an arbitrary and non-transparent testing and punishment regime and a desperate desire by the governing bodies to protect the image of the game at all costs. When it's that easy to get away with, you'd be a fool not to cheat.

Considering the depths of depravity and the enormity of lies Tiger was willing to perpetrate to his wife, his claims of innocence are virtually meaningless. He's a sociopathic liar. In fact if you look at it objectively, that crackpot who went on radio to out Tiger probably had more credibility. With the link to Dr Shady it's just a bad, bad look for Tiger. I actually quite like Tiger (as a player and persona) but I have no pretense that he's an ethically sound individual.
[/quote]

Dead on.

Its money, and fame, and everything that comes with it. Add in a weak testing policy and watch what happens!

Reality... I don't blame any of them. What is the point to the rules if you don't enforce them? If bank robbery is a crime, but you won't be arrested for it, or punished, why not? Sure, argue ethics, but in a professional sport, the entire issue with PED use is the idea of a level playing field. In that respect, if someone is successfully doing it, and you aren't, you are literally costing yourself money.

Beyond the level playing field argument is the idea that a lot of PED use... especially repeated PED use, can be harmful to health.

If this is the case, and you are the PGA, you are obligated to your players to have a testing and enforcement policy that actually acts as a deterrent, and the current one really doesn't do that.

Given the right protocol of PEDs and knowing detection windows, you can determine how long you are "hot" for a positive test. I don't know their testing policy, so I cannot comment, but I know the MLB just really started doing consistent offseason testing around 2008. Before that, only minor leaguers were legitimately and consistently offseason tested.

Other than some of the longer esterfied steroids (like DECA or nandrolone), you can be clean in a few weeks after a cycle, with aqueous based testosterone (what the Russian's came up with in the 70s when they started just destroying the olympics and winning at a crazy rate), its a matter of days to be clean... that is all.

If you know roughly when you will be tested, and you only need a few weeks or days to get clean, and millions of dollars are on the line... well just take a guess what guys do.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425517463' post='11079431']
Dead on.

Its money, and fame, and everything that comes with it.
[/quote]

This. Tiger grew up an enormous geek, finds himself at the center of the golfing world, and the egomaniac and narcissist that he is (or at least turned out to be) comes to light. If for no other reason, he'd take PEDs because...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ6_t0DUXZo

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1425519255' post='11079637']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425517463' post='11079431']
Dead on.

Its money, and fame, and everything that comes with it.
[/quote]

This. Tiger grew up an enormous geek, finds himself at the center of the golfing world, and the egomaniac and narcissist that he is (or at least turned out to be) comes to light. If for no other reason, he'd take PEDs because...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ6_t0DUXZo
[/quote]

Tiger Woods has money and legend status and is the

Most recognized athlete on the planet because he has talent, vision, worked hard

And beat the absolute living tar out of everyone in his way.

Year in and year out.

Set records at the highest level in the biggest events. Killed it.

Won 14 Majors and

79 PGA Tour events.

Just a few *facts*.

As far as your vid. You wanna get bank and ***?

Win 4 majors in a row. That should do it ; )

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425481806' post='11075277']
slimeone is one of the few people who actually get it.

The PGA Tour testing policy is weak when compared to the testing policies of virtually any other sports organization. Interviews with players make it clear that 1) there is no off site testing 2) the testing they do utilize is predictable 3) the Tour policy is to not disclose anything except positive tests for known banned substances. I would go out on a limb and suggest that if Tiger were taking one of the substances that got Dr. Galea arrested, HGH, that short of him being caught on video there would be no way he'd ever get caught.
The NCAA, NFL, MLB, The IOC, FIFA …etc. all have much stronger anti doping policies.

You also mention his lies about the extra marital infidelities. We know at a minimum that Tiger has been evasive at best about the details of his relationship with Galea. How do we know this? Consider this timeline.

September 2009 - Mary Anne Catalano, then assistant to Dr. Galea, is caught at the US - Canada border in Buffalo, NY with a bagful of medical supplies, including growth hormone. Dr. Galea's name comes to light as he emerges as a key target in a Federal probe. The investigation would reveal the names of 23 athletes treated by Galea, including Tiger Woods. In the documents obtained by ESPN, Catalano told authorities she witnessed Galea inject a cocktail mixture containing Nutropin [growth hormone] into the injured knees of "at least seven athletes" while in the U.S. There is no approved test to determine HGH use, but the substance is banned by the major professional sports leagues. Some insight into what Catalano told authorities was provided in support of a warrant filed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to search Galea's office on the day of his arrest. Information on what was retrieved during the search on Oct. 15 remains unavailable, though the warrant indicated investigators were seeking computer files as well as patient, business and financial records. Authorities said Catalano told them that Galea kept separate files on his professional-athlete patients, and in some instances billed them under a separate company called Galea Investments Inc. She also identified where in the Toronto office he stored HGH, which requires refrigeration, and Actovegin.
[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5198475"]http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5198475[/url]

Feb. - March 2010 - This is the time period where Tiger's story about all the extra marital affairs has "evolved" so many times that many media outlets had to create timelines, like the one I am creating here, just so that sports fans could keep track of all the changing news. A pattern emerges. Tiger's story keeps changing, but only after additional news surfaces. In other words, you are only going to know anything if it comes to light from someone else coming forward, Tiger himself isn't going to tell you anything. The distrust in Tiger gets so bad that Tiger hires former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer (who had also attempted to rehab Mark McGwire's image) to manage his message. But that only made things worse. Fleischer would quickly step aside amid claims his very presence gave the impression Woods had something to hide.
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2010/03/22/woods-did/"]http://www.foxnews.c...3/22/woods-did/[/url]

April 1, 2010 - By now it is known that Tiger Woods had been a client of Dr. Galea, but not much else is known. Tiger has at this time claimed his treatments from Galea were for blood spinning only, but the true extent of his relationship with Dr. Galea is unknown. And no one knows about Galea's partner Dr. Lindsay just yet either. The details of the relationships are unknown because Tiger nor Galea or Lindsay are speaking on the subject. Brad Faxon of all people asks Tiger to talk about the relationship. Brad says in an interview "Come Clean about Performance Enhancing Drugs"
[url="http://www.examiner.com/article/brad-faxon-to-tiger-woods-come-clean-about-performance-enhancing-drugs"]http://www.examiner....enhancing-drugs[/url]


July 2011 - Galea avoids trial by accepting guilty plea agreement from Federal prosecutors. There is an important distinction here with Galea's plea agreement - the avoidance of discovery. Federal agents stated they had a slam dunk case against Galea, so who knows what records they actually had/have on him and the athletes he had treated. Galea was caught trying to bring HGH into the US, so one wonders why he would attempt such an illegal act if he did not intend to administer it to the athletes he was treating.


June 2012 - More than two years have gone by since Brad Faxon suggested Tiger should come clean about his relationship with Galea, but Tiger has kept mum on the subject. In June 2012 the Hank Haney - Jamie Diaz co-authored book about Haney's tumultuous 6 year relationship with Tiger hits the book stores. Tiger is upset about the book's details, but he probably should have been relieved because Haney claims no knowledge of Woods and PED's and, and this is important, claims knowledge of only 5 or 6 visits to Tiger from Galea. Citing Florida Dept. of Health investigative records, this claim of so few visits would later be stated in a book written by Tim Elfrink and Gus Garcia Roberts to be untrue, but does Tiger feel the need in 2012 to correct the record on the number of visits as suggested by his former swing coach Haney? I have never seen it. And why would he? His past history suggests he isn't ever going to say anything about this subject.
[url="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/sports/os-mike-bianchi-hank-haney-0403-20120402_1_galea-hank-haney-tiger-woods"]http://articles.orla...ney-tiger-woods[/url]


July 2014 - Two years went by after Faxon asked Tiger to come clean, and then two more years goes by while the world believes Tiger saw Dr. Galea only a handful of times. Tiger basically avoids the subject like the plague. But now a new book comes out that illustrates the prior claims are woefully inadequate in explaining the complicated relationship. Tiger Woods paid Canadian human growth hormone guru Anthony Galea and an associate almost $200,000 for 63 visits to the golfer’s home between September of 2008 and October of 2009, according to a recently released book that raises new questions about the drugs and treatment the Toronto sports physician provided the four-time Masters champion. Galea received more than $76,000 for visiting Woods 14 times while Woods recovered from knee surgery between January and August of 2009, according to “Blood Sport” by Tim Elfrink and Gus Garcia-Roberts. The book also cites a Florida Department of Health investigation that found Mark Lindsay, Galea’s associate, charged Woods more than $118,000 for 49 visits.
[url="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/tiger-woods-spent-200k-hgh-guru-doc-new-book-article-1.1860280"]http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1860280[/url]

The story keeps evolving over time, so it is hardly surprising that golf fans speculate about this.
[/quote]

In the end, timeline or not, Tiger was treated. That's it.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1425526879' post='11080477']

In the end, timeline or not, Tiger was treated. That's it.
[/quote]

Yeah... but treated with what exactly?

The whole thing is that at this point, it would be very naive to be convinced he didn't cheat. Convinced, key word.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425447566' post='11073897']
I didn't bring it up. It's the first time I've ever seen a list of his rash of injuries.

Look. Agree. Don't agree. I don't care.

But at least be reasonable. Understand the guy fits the profile of someone who would use, he has all the money in the world to go do it, or pay a guy who GOT CAUGHT, to come visit him. For an large sum of money. He has a rash of injuries, to parts of body's where guys who do have rashes of injuries after juicing and then stopping have (you can choose not to believe it but the consensus in medicine is repeated anabolic abuse causes connective tissue damage to some people.. )So the Dr said he didn't give him to him. You believe a liar?

The only thing I've said the whole time is suspension is reasonable. Because I seriously think any rational human being would say as such. Have an opinion. By all means, the gigantic rash of coincidences probably mean nothing. But believing he didn't, and being convicted of his complete lack of use, is just as bad as being convinced of yes, maybe worse.

If you kid walks in the door late and slurs their words, but says they weren't drinking... You, immediately buy it? Or at least suspect something's up?
[/quote]
Thing is, you're not just suspicious, you're convinced. And so you keep on keeping on to try to sway others to your way of thinking.
Show us the beef, instead. The rest will then just fall into place for you.
BTW, I know nothing about the world of PEDs and steroids. But I know alcohol and I was a kid once too.....

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425579036' post='11083753']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1425526879' post='11080477']

In the end, timeline or not, Tiger was treated. That's it.
[/quote]

Yeah... but treated with what exactly?

The whole thing is that at this point, it would be very naive to be convinced he didn't cheat. Convinced, key word.
[/quote]

I don't have to be convinced he didn't cheat and there is nothing naive about it. Not everybody fits into the boxes you assume they need to fit into.

Given there is no proof HGH was part of his therapy, I don't give the subject any further consideration. Pretty simple.

[rpl1971]

[quote name='slimeone' timestamp='1425465740' post='11074325']
Personally I suspect PED abuse is rife in golf. Cheating inevitably comes down to risk vs reward, and in the world of professional sports, golf provides an unprecedented opportunity for cheaters. Huge potential earnings (prize/sponsorship money), an arbitrary and non-transparent testing and punishment regime and a desperate desire by the governing bodies to protect the image of the game at all costs. When it's that easy to get away with, you'd be a fool not to cheat.

Considering the depths of depravity and the enormity of lies Tiger was willing to perpetrate to his wife, his claims of innocence are virtually meaningless. He's a sociopathic liar. In fact if you look at it objectively, that crackpot who went on radio toout Tiger probably had more credibility. With the link to Dr Shady it's just a bad, bad look for Tiger. I actually quite like Tiger (as a player and persona) but I have no pretense that he's an ethically sound individual.
[/quote]

Good perfect handle for you man... Keep sliming, Tiger keeps smiling while loving life...

[rpl1971]

[size=4]IF PED worked should there not be more "Tigers" out there???? Folks PED do nothing to help sinking a 20 footer or hitting a stinger or winning 79 / 14..

Please continue this cavalcade of ad hominem attacks and baseless opinion...[/size]

[avrag]

[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425580363' post='11083909']
[size=4]PED do nothing to help sinking a 20 footer[/size]
[/quote]

If your definition of PEDs only include substances, which make your muscles bigger, you are correct.
Trouble is, this definition is wrong.

[formula02]

What PEDs help you make putts and where do I get some?

[ZombieDave]

Beta blockers?

[Mahamilto]

I won't be fully convinced without hard proof.

That being said, I would not hesitate to say I would be less surprised if he did than if he didn't.

The entire thread was about "speculation"

I am 100% firm in my stance that at this point it is very unreasonable to not be suspicious. There are just way too many connections. If the world teaches you anything it is coincidences are rarely random. They can be... Sure, but a sheer random coincidence is rare.

Multiple coincidences connected to the same issue become exponentially more rare...

But people do win the lottery, rare things do happen, they are rare, not nonexistent. So maybe a guy with character flaws, connections to dirty docs, severe decline following testing getting stricter, etc is innocent.

But it's really wild to put faith in someone who has demonstrated that he's not the kinda person to put your faith in.

[Mahamilto]

Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.

[avrag]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

+1
And there is a good reason that there have been doping suspensions in Olympic disciplines such as archery and pistol and rifle shooting.

[golfcarte]

[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425580363' post='11083909']
IF PED worked should there not be more "Tigers" out there???? Folks PED do nothing to help sinking a 20 footer or hitting a stinger or winning 79 / 14..

Please continue this cavalcade of ad hominem attacks and baseless opinion...
[/quote]

tiger always felt that golf is a sport and the players are athletes, so to prove that he changed his look and his workout routine. he would've been a prolific winner with his previously scrawny build and the pundits would say that golf is not a sport and the players are not athletes...if a scrawny-looking guy could win 79 times, than anyone can, or at least, its not worth the time and effort. now you have 'jocks' like dustin johnson, gary woodland, and brooks koepka, that are at the forefront of a sport that they wouldn't have even sniffed at pre 'mr. atlas' tiger.

[golfcarte]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600006' post='11086207']
I won't be fully convinced without hard proof.

That being said, I would not hesitate to say I would be less surprised if he did than if he didn't.

The entire thread was about "speculation"

I am 100% firm in my stance that at this point it is very unreasonable to not be suspicious. There are just way too many connections. If the world teaches you anything it is coincidences are rarely random. They can be... Sure, but a sheer random coincidence is rare.

Multiple coincidences connected to the same issue become exponentially more rare...

But people do win the lottery, rare things do happen, they are rare, not nonexistent. So maybe a guy with character flaws, connections to dirty docs, severe decline following testing getting stricter, etc is innocent.

But it's really wild to put faith in someone who has demonstrated that he's not the kinda person to put your faith in.
[/quote]

then i guess the professional sports world thinks the average fan is at best, naive, and at worst, stupid and deserves not to know the real truth, but they'll gladly take your money a year in advance (with interest), thank you. what scum.

[nochct1]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

When do you think it started? He obviously had the best Amateur career since Bobby Jones, then turned pro and got off to one of the best starts ever with two wins in a short season for him. Came out in 1997 and had a record setting performance at the Masters and 4 wins overall (same amount Rory had last year). In 1998 he decided to make big changes to his swing with the encouragement of his coach, Butch Harmon. Then he went on an amazing run in 1999 and 2000. Arguably the best golf ever played.

So when did the PEDs start? His success on tour is right in line with the rest of his career. He dominated at every level. Its not like he was a good or really good golfer who all of a sudden became much better than everyone else because of PEDs. He was always much better than everyone else. From the time he was 5 years old he has dominated his peers.

And then his body broke down as he got older. Again, if HGH was undetectable I would expect that he would be taking it as he got older to keep playing at the same level. That's what stood out with some of the baseball players over the years. They got better as they got older, when their bodies should have been breaking down.

We get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.

[Smith65]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.

[rpl1971]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425647725' post='11088995']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you the only treatment he got was the Plalette treatment which is 100% legal. Now you keep mentioning you "know" Tiger took PED's. Please let me know how PED's can help in golf ??? If it can then why not more "winners" ??? If it can they why not more "Major Winners" ???

[sefus12]

[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425648051' post='11089017']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425647725' post='11088995']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you the only treatment he got was the Plalette treatment which is 100% legal. Now you keep mentioning you "know" Tiger took PED's. Please let me know how PED's can help in golf ??? If it can then why not more "winners" ??? If it can they why not more "Major Winners" ???
[/quote]

He can't. No matter how hard he tries he can't say he knows Tiger took PEDS because he doesn't know. He has an opinion, just like the rest of us. He just happens to be much more vocal about his opinion and tries to convince as many others as he can that he is correct despite having zero proof that Tiger did anything illegal.

[Smith65]

[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425648051' post='11089017']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425647725' post='11088995']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you the only treatment he got was the Plalette treatment which is 100% legal. Now you keep mentioning you "know" Tiger took PED's. Please let me know how PED's can help in golf ??? If it can then why not more "winners" ??? If it can they why not more "Major Winners" ???
[/quote]

First off, you do not know that the only treatment he received from Galea was for platelette injections. Niether of us "know" whether he did or did not receive more than platelette injections. We only know that this is what Tiger said when asked about it.

Second, PED's can help in golf because they can give you better endurance and they can help you re cover more quickly from both injury and strenuous muscle use. In this respect they could help with nearly anything, including things you would not expect them to help with, like solving problems on a college exam or playing video games. So yes, they can help you shoot a lower score in golf.

Third, if you believe the Florida Dept. of Health records are accurate, then Tiger's explanation doesn't make any sense. Tiger let the world believe he saw Dr. Galea a hand ful of times. It is easy to see why he would want people to believe that since the typical time between platelette injections is about 6 weeks. Let's do some simple math. Tiger had 63 visits from the team of known HGH dispensers Galea et al. These visits took place from July 2008 thru Oct. 2009. That is about 65 weeks. If all he was getting was platelette injections then he got a lot of injections with very little in between time for recovery and healing. My belief is based on the idea that Tiger's own story does not add up. That and the fact that he even chose Galea, a known PED/HGH dispenser in the first place.

If Tiger did not want people top believe he did PED's, then he stupidly chose the wrong Dr.

[rpl1971]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425649621' post='11089137']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425648051' post='11089017']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425647725' post='11088995']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for you the only treatment he got was the Plalette treatment which is 100% legal. Now you keep mentioning you "know" Tiger took PED's. Please let me know how PED's can help in golf ??? If it can then why not more "winners" ??? If it can they why not more "Major Winners" ???
[/quote]

First off, you do not know that the only treatment he received from Galea was for platelette injections. Niether of us "know" whether he did or did not receive more than platelette injections. We only know that this is what Tiger said when asked about it.

Second, PED's can help in golf because they can give you better endurance and they can help you re cover more quickly from both injury and strenuous muscle use. In this respect they could help with nearly anything, including things you would not expect them to help with, like solving problems on a college exam or playing video games. So yes, they can help you shoot a lower score in golf.

Third, if you believe the Florida Dept. of Health records are accurate, then Tiger's explanation doesn't make any sense. Tiger let the world believe he saw Dr. Galea a hand ful of times. It is easy to see why he would want people to believe that since the typical time between platelette injections is about 6 weeks. Let's do some simple math. Tiger had 63 visits from the team of known HGH dispensers Galea et al. These visits took place from July 2008 thru Oct. 2009. That is about 65 weeks. If all he was getting was platelette injections then he got a lot of injections with very little in between time for recovery and healing. My belief is based on the idea that Tiger's own story does not add up. That and the fact that he even chose Galea, a known PED/HGH dispenser in the first place.

If Tiger did not want people top believe he did PED's, then he stupidly chose the wrong Dr.
[/quote]

Proof of the 63 visits ??? PED's do not improve talent.. If so as ive stated three times now, we would have more winners.. your opinion is yours, I am just saying maybe wait until some proof is shown before committing 100% to the guilt of someone who really does not even have the slightest reason to use PEDs

[nochct1]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425647725' post='11088995']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1425646276' post='11088915']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425600431' post='11086245']
Oh... And steroids/PEDs have huge mental effects.

Confidence goes up (you feel stronger and more capable, and testosterone increases are directly linked to mental state)

Aggression goes up. Killer instinct anyone.

If there was amphetamine use (no link to woods but just mentioning another big PED), increases in alertness and focus.

Most peds are highly regulated hormones or precursors/releasing factors. They don't just localize in your muscles guys.
[/quote]

e get it, you're 100% convinced about Tiger using PEDs and you're using your knowledge of the subject to cover for bias on the matter. If you are such an expert, then you should have a list of names of other players that you suspect have used PEDs.
[/quote]


I can't speak for the guy you are questioning here, but my list includes only those players who are known to have used PED's or known to have associated with drug peddlers like Dr. Anthony Galea and Associates. Those players who not only associate with drug peddlers, but come up with lame and easily seen thru excuses for such association. That entire list as far as I know is three golfers, the two guys the Tour suspended thus far plus Tiger Woods.
[/quote]

I've posted articles previously. He treated plenty of athletes who didn't use HGH. Athletes such a figure skaters that competed in the Olympics, but let me guess...you assume they used PEDs as well.

Again, Tiger has NEVER tested positive for PEDs. Never. Until there is a positive test you cannot say that he used PEDs. You can think that he did. But you cannot put him on a "list", nor can you try to tell people that he did. There is no proof. The only proof that someone actually did something is a testimony in court or a positive test.