The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[Smith65]

Video gamers are talking about installing PED testing. This alone should make it OBVIOUS that PED's can enhance results for nearly anything.

[sailfishchris]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1425672588' post='11091813']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425668133' post='11091215']
Wrong guy, not only do I believe Tiger DID NOT use PEDs, I am challenging anyone to tell me how PEDs help in golf
[/quote]

This is my last post in this thread and at no point will I even address Tiger Woods in my explanation.

rpl1971... please first understand your actual question. You are asking how substances with known athletic performances benefits, i.e. that improve your ability as an athlete, help you compete in an athletic sport. On the broad spectrum of athletic sports, golf is on the low end for raw strength needs, but that doesn't mean by any possible interpretation that being stronger alone would not improve your ability to perform within the sport.

I will humor you, you may want to pull up google in advance, and feel free to check everything I said.

PED types:

Anabolic agents (androgenic steroids) add muscle mass, improve muscular strength, or both, depending on what agent is used. Commonly known anabolic agents are DECA, Dianabol, Nandrolone, Winstrol, and Testosterone, just to name a few. These agents are either derivatives of many sex hormones (typically male) or synthetically derived agonists or antagonists (activators or deactivators) of androgenic cell signaling pathways. Most anabolic agents are steroids. By definition a steroid is a polycyclic carbon ring structure with hydroxyl groups attached to it (-OH). The size and structure of these molecules, along with their common hydrophobic nature, cause them to be stored in fat, creating a significantly larger detection window for their metabolites. A common steroid that is not an anabolic agent is cholesterol, which provides structural integrity for cellular membranes.

Peptide Hormones are chains amino acids which act as intercellular (generally) messengers to illicit a secondary action on a target generally found distal from the production site. The vast majority of peptide hormones are produced in the anterior pituitary, stimulated by the hypothalamus, and are involved in the regulation of various biochemical pathways, including but not limited to, metabolism, inflammatory response, reproduction, and tissue repair. Commonly known peptide hormones include HGH (Human growth hormone), FSH (follicle stimulating hormone, induces ovulation in females), and the GHRP family (Growth hormone releasing peptide). Due to the generally high water solubility of these hormones, and the fact that their synthetic derivatives are virtually identical in structure, the body will eliminate traces of these readily, and in addition, it is often impossible to determine the difference between the synthetic peptide hormone's metabolites and the metabolites of endogenous (produced by the body) peptides.

Stimulants are a class of molecules which are known to illicit heightened nervous system activity, eventually resulting in heightened alertness, focus, and energy. The nervous system regulatory output of stimulants causes the body to perceive less pain, less fatigue, and elevated physical output. The vast majority of these stimulants are "amide pressors", meaning they possess one or more regions of Nitrogen to Hydrogen bonds with extremely high levels of reactivity. In fact, a large class of neurotransmitters, which convey electrochemical signals across synapses in the nervous system, involve similar amide regions and similar causative effects. Commonly known amide pressor stimulants are amphetamines (Adderall etc.), Vasopressin (regulatory signaler of blood pressure), and nicotine (yup... in fact the receptors found at the skeletal neuromuscular juncture is a "nicotinic acetylcholine ion channel", but that’s for an entirely different lecture). The most commonly known stimulant is caffeine, which regulates the presence of adenosine in the reticular formation of the brain stem. The reticular formation is highly responsible in regulation of blood pressure, respiration, and general activity/alertness. In fact, it is the spinoreticular tract which coordinates most sympathetic responses (fight or flight response, response to trauma, etc.) to regulate pain and improve physical output in various times of survival needs.

Beta-Blockers actually are a part of the opposite side of the equation. These molecules are inhibitors of the sympathetic response typical of highly stressful situations. They will combat elevated levels of anxiety and blood pressure, but are specifically designed to have little to no effect on overall alertness.

Understand that the body works in a manner that every system is highly regulated and interconnected. The body does not do anything the brain does not perceive, and the brain rarely does anything that does not result in the output of some manner of physical behavior. Hormones are regulated by cell signaling and production is often signaled by environmental needs, deduced in the brain, as a result of internal and external stimuli.

OK... so how does this help in golf.

Anabolic agents will increase both strength and muscular endurance. They have some effects to lower body fat as well. They also cause large neurological responses which can change behavior and cognitive mind set. They have been noted to increase aggression, competitive drive, and self-confidence. The combined effects can improve coordination of neurological motion pattern generators and muscular output, though it would be of less importance in an athlete with high levels of existing motor competence. At a molecular level, these molecules signal muscle fiber growth and recruitment, both of which will lead to improved physical output. I do not feel I need to go out on a limb to say that the net effect of these would be beneficial to someone competing in a sport where strength and endurance increases are beneficial, and where the mental effects of steroids would be beneficial as well. If nothing else at all, the increased strength would allow one to exert a lower percentage of their max physical output to get equal clubhead speed, allowing the golfer to hit the ball as far with lower physical exertion, resulting in more control.

Peptide hormones have a very large regulatory effect. They signal output of various anabolic agents and hormones, as well as having many metabolic regulatory effects. In fact, insulin is a peptide hormone that governs the storage of high levels of circulating blood glucose levels. PED specific hormones, such as HGH, often deal with tissue regeneration. HGH signals the physical growth of organs, and to a lesser extent, muscles, as well, but its primary utility as a PED is its ability to regulate inflammatory response and increase the speed of tissue regeneration. Endogenous (made in the body) HGH levels experience a significant decline in men beginning at roughly the age of 25 and increasing in significance into the late 30s and early 40s. HGH is currently under clinical trial for anti-aging, and many respected physicians feel that the decline of HGH release is one of the main culprits of physical and mental decline. I once again would feel incredibly safe to say that the use of many PED peptide hormone agents would improve and individual’s ability to perform in golf. HGH can be used to recover faster from training, which then allows more training to be done and larger strength gains to be seen. HGH regulates body fat storages, and PED use of HGH results in a marked decrease in body fat, which could be argued to allow for more flexibility and general athleticism, again benefitting the golfer. Many peptide hormones can also be used as PEDs to signal the release of endogenous androgens, thereby improving performance and lowering drug test detectability.

Stimulants will improve focus, cause levels of euphoria, improve cardiovascular output, improve alertness, and help the golfer avoid fatigue. The benefits of these to a golfer are clearly significant. Athletic performance is negatively impacted by depressed mood and fatigue. If for no other reason, improving the body's capacity to stay on task, and to output physical exertion, would lead to a marked level of improvement by a golfer, especially if he/she was feeling less than their normal self.

Beta-Blockers decrease sympathetic responses from adrenaline and other hormones, thereby essentially calming nerves. Multiple studies have been done, even with athletes, showing the existence of performance anxiety, regardless of an individual’s level of competition. Nervous response, often seen due to heightened circulating adrenaline, can cause a decrease in fine motor skills. As golf, and especially putting, requires precise control, a drug which will improve your ability to control your mind and body when under pressure would obviously been viewable as beneficial for those who need it.

PEDs do not make good athletes, but they absolutely do make good athletes better, in any athletic sport requiring times of significant physical or mental exertion. Golf fits both of those criteria.

PEDs can also cause various biochemical regulatory issues, destruction of various tissues, including connective tissues such as collagen or elastin, and improper use or repeated abuse can be linked to numerous physical and mental disorders.
[/quote] Where were you when I was taking Anatomy and Physiology in college!

[Playaway]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425671590' post='11091633']
PED's can help golfers because they can aid in faster recovery times and increased endurance and focus. This has been stated so many times in this thread, but since a few continue to repeat the myth that PED's can't help with golf it bears continual repeating. From Golf Digest:

[color=#333333]"The best players aren't going to be testing positive for steroids," says Randy Myers, who trains more than a dozen tour players. "Small doses of impact drugs -- HGH, things like that -- that's what the modern athlete is doing. It's barely testable, and it doesn't bulk you up. It builds explosive muscle, which is what all golfers want."[/color]
[/quote]

WTF does Golf Digest know?

[Smith65]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425676345' post='11092283']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425671590' post='11091633']
PED's can help golfers because they can aid in faster recovery times and increased endurance and focus. This has been stated so many times in this thread, but since a few continue to repeat the myth that PED's can't help with golf it bears continual repeating. From Golf Digest:

[color=#333333]"The best players aren't going to be testing positive for steroids," says Randy Myers, who trains more than a dozen tour players. "Small doses of impact drugs -- HGH, things like that -- that's what the modern athlete is doing. It's barely testable, and it doesn't bulk you up. It builds explosive muscle, which is what all golfers want."[/color]
[/quote]

WTF does Golf Digest know?
[/quote]


They are probably out to get Tiger, huh?

[aussie ausborne]

So has the speculation ended yet?

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425669913' post='11091415']
[b]How does Tiger's decision to consult a respected doctor with no convictions reflect badly on him?[/b] [b]what vetting process should he have used, in your opinion?[/b]

[b]Are you also saying that people who did business with Madhoff before it became apparent he was a criminal should have instinctively known he was a criminal?[/b]



In an article written by Don Van Natta that appeared in the NY Times it is stated that Tiger was referred to Galea by his own agents. The agents, it is implied, knew of Galea's treatment of other athletes.

[i][color=#000000][size=4]Dr. Galea said Mr. Woods was referred to him by the golfer’s agents at Cleveland-based International Management Group, who were alarmed at the slow pace of Mr. Woods’s rehabilitation after knee surgery in June 2008. The doctor said he flew to Orlando, Fla., at least four times to give Mr. Woods the platelet therapy at his home in Windermere, Fla., in February and March of this year. When asked for comment about Mr. Woods’s involvement with Dr. Galea, Mark Steinberg, of I.M.G., responded in an e-mail message: “I would really ask that you guys don’t write this? If Tiger is NOT implicated, and won’t be, let’s please give the kid a break.”[/size][/color][/i]
[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/sports/15doctor.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0"]http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0[/url]


[color=#000000][size=4]Who are some of those other athletes? [/size][/color][color=#000000][size=4]You should carefully read this article to see the kind of crap that the investigators had to deal with during their investigation of Galea. The athletes are referred to by letters of the alphabet. This is a poor attempt at secresy, but this is how Galea did it. It is how shady people operate. [/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 6:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete B -- New York (HGH)[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 8:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete F -- Tampa[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 9:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete G - San Francisco[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 10:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete H -- San Diego (HGH), Athlete I -- New York[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 11:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete J -- Boston (vitamin drip)[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 12:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete A -- Washington (vitamin drip/HGH)[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 13:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Athlete K, L, M -- Cleveland (HGH/knees)[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=2]• [/size][/color][b]Aug. 18-24:[/b][color=#333333][size=2] Galea away from his office, but contacted by Athletes N, A, P, [/size][/color]

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5198475"]http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5198475[/url]


Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, A Rod ...etc, plenty of whom were shrouded in the PED rumor mill and/or had already tested positive for steroids before Woods chose Galea. Need proof? Galea is associated with Marion Jones. Jones first tested positive for steroids in August of 2006. Galea is associated with Tim Montgomery, but Tim was banned from Track and Field in 2005. Galea is associated with A Rod, who perhaps played a very significant role in how Tiger ended up with Galea. But even A Rod had been implicated before Team Tiger chose Galea. Jose Canseco targeted A Rod in his April 2008 release of his book on steroid use and baseball, several months before Tiger first saw Galea.

Team Tiger had every opportunity in the world to make the connection between galea and PED's, but they are either totally stupid or they looked the other way and hoped it would never surface.

So how would I have done due diligence in selecting a platelet spinning doctor for old Tiger? Well, one of the things I would have avoided was selecting a Dr. who had a connection to athletes known to be associated with PED's. That would have eliminated Galea. But what was the due diligence of Team Tiger? According to Van Natta and others who have written on the subject, Tiger sought out advice because of his slow recovery from surgery and Galea was selected BECAUSE of his association with these other athletes who had seen improvement gains after seeing Galea. We can see how and why these others had improved, since all have tested positive. And we could have seen prior to the time when Team Tiger selected Galea.

Hello?

As for Madhoff, the average investor has no clue what they are doing, so no, I would not expect them to have known what old Bernie was up to. Team Tiger was worth about a billion dollars, so they had the resources to know better.
[/quote]

That information (about Galea and HGH) wasn't even available until long after Tiger had his treatments, the information about those athletes is from Canadian law enforcement records, long after the fact.

[drn92]

[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425666120' post='11090927']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425665758' post='11090893']
[quote name='rpl1971' timestamp='1425665084' post='11090807']
All of this is good fun, but honestly if PEDs helped in golf in ANY WAY at all, would it not be reasonable to think that many golfers would use them , and we would see an increase in performance and winning..
[/quote]


How do you know more golfers aren't using PED's? It isn't like the Tour's testing policy is very effective, so how do you know? Maybe dozens of them are. I'm not saying they are, but I don't trust the Tour's testing policy to catch superstars cheating.
[/quote]

Sure but again how does PEDs help in golf ?? simple question folks,,,
[/quote]

You are being deliberately obtuse with this line of posting. It is clear how performance enhancing drugs can benefit golfers.

drn92

[Smith65]

[size=4]Hawkeye, Team Tiger chose to patronze a Dr. who isn't even licensed in the US. A Dr. who was known in the athlete community they represented to be involved with HGH. Tiger was led to Galea by the very athletic community that knew. Even when we did not yet know, they did know. Read this from ESPN.[/size]

[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]The third is the most damning. Players continually ask the public to believe them, to accept that the entire PED world is one giant misunderstanding, yet they continue to make incredibly reckless decisions with their careers. Rodriguez earns $31 million per season and has access, by dint of his fame and enormous financial resources, to the best medical advice and care the world has to offer. But he apparently chose to patronize Galea, who isn't even licensed to practice in the United States.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]The same is true for Woods, who seems as if he might be on his way to becoming golf's $1 billion embarrassment. If you follow the logic, the decision-making of the steroids era athlete suggests widespread impropriety.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]Today, whether the doctor is Galea or James Shortt (who served time for providing HGH to members of the [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=car"]Carolina Panthers[/url]) or others yet to be identified, players with money, access and power are turning to questionable sources for treatment of injuries. That suggests a serious lack of discretion, if not a suspicious desire to avoid the traditional paper trail.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]Chances are, if an athlete decides to take an underground route to "wellness," he's doing something he shouldn't. Then when scandal hits, as it almost always does, these same players go into denial and express outrage at the injustice being done to their reputations.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]And they wonder why no one believes them.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4][url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=bryant/100519"]http://sports.espn.g...e=bryant/100519[/url][/size][/i][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=3][size=4]We may not have known about Anthony Galea's connection to HGH until 2009, but he was well known in the athlete community long before Team Tiger hired him. The very community that high powered agents at IMG represented. Since many of the athletes he treated ended up testing positive, those athletes, one of them being Tiger's close friend A Rod, they knew. Team Tiger should have known. [/size][/size][/color]

[stevesnis]

The thing that I don't get in this whole deal, and others have brought it up before, but aren't PED's supposed ENHANCE your performance? Tiger had knee surgery in 2008 and began receiving PRP therapy from Galea the next year. Since then, he STILL hasn't won a major and his overall performance has slipped.

Isn't that what happens with age? You're not as good as you once were? The major red flag would be if Tiger comes back from this latest bout of injury and starts miraculously winning everything in sight again.

That's the difference with the baseball/steroid connection everyone is making. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc were all outperforming their "in their prime" selves into their late 30's/early 40's. THAT doesn't happen. It may happen once or twice as an outlier, but not regularly like it was then.

Tiger's body is breaking down like 40 y/o bodies break down. If he's taking HGH and all of these illegal miracle drugs, it's time to get his money back because they ain't working.

[Playaway]

[quote name='stevesnis' timestamp='1425681754' post='11092891']
The thing that I don't get in this whole deal, and others have brought it up before, but aren't PED's supposed ENHANCE your performance? Tiger had knee surgery in 2008 and began receiving PRP therapy from Galea the next year. Since then, he STILL hasn't won a major and his overall performance has slipped.

Isn't that what happens with age? You're not as good as you once were? The major red flag would be if Tiger comes back from this latest bout of injury and starts miraculously winning everything in sight again.

That's the difference with the baseball/steroid connection everyone is making. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc were all outperforming their "in their prime" selves into their late 30's/early 40's. THAT doesn't happen. It may happen once or twice as an outlier, but not regularly like it was then.

Tiger's body is breaking down like 40 y/o bodies break down. [color=#ff0000] If he's taking HGH and all of these illegal miracle drugs, it's time to get his money back because they ain't working.[/color]
[/quote]

Maybe he stopped taking them in June 2008? Bonds and them continued using until they were done.

[ZombieDave]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682089' post='11092927']


Maybe he stopped taking them in June 2008? Bonds and them continued using until they were done.
[/quote]

Stopped taking them when he got injured and started being treated by Galea? *sigh*.

Maybe he's from Mars? Is there any evidence that he's not from Mars?

[Playaway]

[quote name='ZombieDave' timestamp='1425682387' post='11092959']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682089' post='11092927']
Maybe he stopped taking them in June 2008? Bonds and them continued using until they were done.
[/quote]

Stopped taking them when he got injured and started being treated by Galea? *sigh*.

Maybe he's from Mars? Is there any evidence that he's not from Mars?
[/quote]

Galea is not the only source out there.

[Smith65]

[quote name='stevesnis' timestamp='1425681754' post='11092891']
The thing that I don't get in this whole deal, and others have brought it up before, but aren't PED's supposed ENHANCE your performance? Tiger had knee surgery in 2008 and began receiving PRP therapy from Galea the next year. Since then, he STILL hasn't won a major and his overall performance has slipped.

Isn't that what happens with age? You're not as good as you once were? The major red flag would be if Tiger comes back from this latest bout of injury and starts miraculously winning everything in sight again.

That's the difference with the baseball/steroid connection everyone is making. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc were all outperforming their "in their prime" selves into their late 30's/early 40's. THAT doesn't happen. It may happen once or twice as an outlier, but not regularly like it was then.

Tiger's body is breaking down like 40 y/o bodies break down. If he's taking HGH and all of these illegal miracle drugs, it's time to get his money back because they ain't working.
[/quote]


Tiger ascended back to #1 in the OWGR and won 8 events between 2012 and 2013. To me that looks like overperformance from where he was at previously. Now that might not exactly square up with the Dr. Galea timeline, but who knows who else or what else Tiger was doing back then. Plus, Tiger re injured himself and may no longer be doing now what he was doing then. It doesn't have to be precise, make perfect sense, or line up like pieces of a nicely fit puzzle for it to have happened. Life isn't that simple.

[Shilgy]

Many of the articles being cited are no more proof than reposting the comments from this board. It's like watching Fox News or MSNBC, same story gets reported in varying ways. And the articles are being speculative the same as we are because NO ONE KNOWS. My only question from a couple pages ago but not answered was to Smith 65. You referred to the 63 visits by Tiger many times as proof that something was up but then changed that to 14 Tiger and 49 Lindsay. Care to elaborate or clear up that discrepancy? Not that it really matters because neither of us will change our view. If we were on a jury I am sure I would have reasonable doubt and you would not.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425681092' post='11092827']
[size=4]Hawkeye, Team Tiger chose to patronze a Dr. who isn't even licensed in the US. A Dr. who was known in the athlete community they represented to be involved with HGH. Tiger was led to Galea by the very athletic community that knew. Even when we did not yet know, they did know. Read this from ESPN.[/size]

[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]The third is the most damning. Players continually ask the public to believe them, to accept that the entire PED world is one giant misunderstanding, yet they continue to make incredibly reckless decisions with their careers. Rodriguez earns $31 million per season and has access, by dint of his fame and enormous financial resources, to the best medical advice and care the world has to offer. But he apparently chose to patronize Galea, who isn't even licensed to practice in the United States.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]The same is true for Woods, who seems as if he might be on his way to becoming golf's $1 billion embarrassment. If you follow the logic, the decision-making of the steroids era athlete suggests widespread impropriety.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]Today, whether the doctor is Galea or James Shortt (who served time for providing HGH to members of the [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=car"]Carolina Panthers[/url]) or others yet to be identified, players with money, access and power are turning to questionable sources for treatment of injuries. That suggests a serious lack of discretion, if not a suspicious desire to avoid the traditional paper trail.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]Chances are, if an athlete decides to take an underground route to "wellness," he's doing something he shouldn't. Then when scandal hits, as it almost always does, these same players go into denial and express outrage at the injustice being done to their reputations.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4]And they wonder why no one believes them.[/size][/i][/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3][i][size=4][url="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=bryant/100519"]http://sports.espn.g...e=bryant/100519[/url][/size][/i][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=3][size=4]We may not have known about Anthony Galea's connection to HGH until 2009, but he was well known in the athlete community long before Team Tiger hired him. The very community that high powered agents at IMG represented. Since many of the athletes he treated ended up testing positive, those athletes, one of them being Tiger's close friend A Rod, they knew. Team Tiger should have known. [/size][/size][/color]
[/quote]

Posting a 5 year old speculative rush to judgment by someone from ESPN doesn't advance the argument for me.

Paying attention to everything that's happened since then factually is a lot more relevant to me than an opinion piece.

[ZombieDave]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682642' post='11092993']
[quote name='ZombieDave' timestamp='1425682387' post='11092959']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682089' post='11092927']
Maybe he stopped taking them in June 2008? Bonds and them continued using until they were done.
[/quote]

Stopped taking them when he got injured and started being treated by Galea? *sigh*.

Maybe he's from Mars? Is there any evidence that he's not from Mars?
[/quote]

Galea is not the only source out there.
[/quote]

No, but why stop there? Maybe Nicklaus was on it. Maybe maybe maybe.

[Sean2]

You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)

[Hawkeye77]

Really, so many people want Tiger to have been on something it kills them there is no way to prove it, so it just "must be".

I'm going to catch up on the LPGA juicers for a bit, that Librarian sure looks different this year and keeps winning, she's got to be on something.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

For a Tiger thread about drugs it's been surprisingly civil. Heck, I've only been openly chastised once!

[Playaway]

[quote name='ZombieDave' timestamp='1425683681' post='11093089']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682642' post='11092993']
[quote name='ZombieDave' timestamp='1425682387' post='11092959']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425682089' post='11092927']
Maybe he stopped taking them in June 2008? Bonds and them continued using until they were done.
[/quote]

Stopped taking them when he got injured and started being treated by Galea? *sigh*.

Maybe he's from Mars? Is there any evidence that he's not from Mars?
[/quote]

Galea is not the only source out there.
[/quote]

No, but why stop there? Maybe Nicklaus was on it. Maybe maybe maybe.
[/quote]

He was? Yea, that 86 Masters win. Musta been "aided". Could have been.

[aussie ausborne]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

There are guys here saying the speculation has to end, but they keep asking the guys who are doing the speculation to elaborate more on their speculation, and then we get a whole new round of speculation.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1425684113' post='11093129']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

For a Tiger thread about drugs it's been surprisingly civil. Heck, I've only been openly chastised once!
[/quote]

That's because you are civil, Hawkeye. :-)

[Sean2]

[quote name='aussie ausborne' timestamp='1425684559' post='11093195']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

There are guys here saying the speculation has to end, but they keep asking the guys who are doing the speculation to elaborate more on their speculation, and then we get a whole new round of speculation.
[/quote]

Well said...which was why I was wondering why people were still speculating. :-)

[Playaway]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425684682' post='11093211']
[quote name='aussie ausborne' timestamp='1425684559' post='11093195']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

There are guys here saying the speculation has to end, but they keep asking the guys who are doing the speculation to elaborate more on their speculation, and then we get a whole new round of speculation.
[/quote]

Well said...which was why I was wondering why people were still speculating. :-)
[/quote]

Similar to Lance Armstrong. Speculation went on and on . . . . . . . . then, BOOM!

I hope that doesn't happen here. Bad for the game.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425685042' post='11093253']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425684682' post='11093211']
[quote name='aussie ausborne' timestamp='1425684559' post='11093195']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

There are guys here saying the speculation has to end, but they keep asking the guys who are doing the speculation to elaborate more on their speculation, and then we get a whole new round of speculation.
[/quote]

Well said...which was why I was wondering why people were still speculating. :-)
[/quote]

Similar to Lance Armstrong. Speculation went on and on . . . . . . . . then, BOOM!

I hope that doesn't happen here. Bad for the game.
[/quote]

Well I don't take performance enhancing drugs, so if the speculation turns out to be true, it will balance things out.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425684581' post='11093199']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1425684113' post='11093129']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

For a Tiger thread about drugs it's been surprisingly civil. Heck, I've only been openly chastised once!
[/quote]

That's because you are civil, Hawkeye. :-)
[/quote]

I'll take that as encouragement to keep trying.

[aussie ausborne]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425684682' post='11093211']
[quote name='aussie ausborne' timestamp='1425684559' post='11093195']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1425683828' post='11093099']
You guys are STILL talking about this? :-)
[/quote]

There are guys here saying the speculation has to end, but they keep asking the guys who are doing the speculation to elaborate more on their speculation, and then we get a whole new round of speculation.
[/quote]

Well said...which was why I was wondering why people were still speculating. :-)
[/quote]

That is a topic that could lead to some interesting speculation.




ok I'm done.

[dereckbc]

All pros and celebrities are Fair Game and welcome any PR Good or Bad as any PR is Good PR.

 

The only time for a Pro or Celebrity to begin to worry is when people quit talking about you good or bad. Or else you end up like this guy:

 

 

FORGOTTEN ABOUT and NO ONE KNOWS YOUR NAME OR CARES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

[Hawkeye77]

Nobody doesn't immediately know that's Gary Coleman.

What you talkin' 'bout Willis?

[Smith65]

[b]Posting a 5 year old speculative rush to judgment by someone from ESPN doesn't advance the argument for me. Paying attention to everything that's happened since then factually is a lot more relevant to me than an opinion piece.[/b]


What has happened since then that sheds any more light on this? Galea has plead guilty. Anything else?