The Tiger Woods PED/Steroids Speculation has to end

[farmer]

I bow to Mr. M's knowledge and nuanced posts.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424909169' post='11029049']
[quote name='Matt J' timestamp='1424883349' post='11026173']

I can't understand how you fellas think Tiger knew Galea was into PEDs. Let's not forget Tiger saw him before he was caught. No one in their right mind that gets tested would seek Galea out after he was busted, not to mention I'm pretty sure he was asked not to "practice" states side after his plea. He was never licensed as a practitioner in the U.S.
[/quote]

High profile athletes with high profile agents throughly vet (look into the background of...) any doctor or related persona prior to engaging in activity with them. In addition, if you are profiting from PED distribution, and someone with Woods' assets and profession engages with you, even if in the beginning for legal and legitimate reasons, do you think for even a second the doctor wouldn't, I don't know, at least allude to the idea that he had other resources to improve Tiger's performance?

I mean really, you are not talking about some guy he looked up in the yellow pages because he had a stomach bug. At the very least, it would be incredibly unlikely that Woods wasn't, at some point, aware of the doctors side business, and it is as likely he partook.
[/quote]

That's fine.

And you and some others would think the same.

Including people and institutions with considerable resources who would see an enormous return on finding any scrap of evidence/witness of your opinoin.

Yet not one person has ever even hinted at first hand knowledge of ped use by TW.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1424913364' post='11029525']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424909169' post='11029049']
[quote name='Matt J' timestamp='1424883349' post='11026173']
I can't understand how you fellas think Tiger knew Galea was into PEDs. Let's not forget Tiger saw him before he was caught. No one in their right mind that gets tested would seek Galea out after he was busted, not to mention I'm pretty sure he was asked not to "practice" states side after his plea. He was never licensed as a practitioner in the U.S.
[/quote]

High profile athletes with high profile agents throughly vet (look into the background of...) any doctor or related persona prior to engaging in activity with them. In addition, if you are profiting from PED distribution, and someone with Woods' assets and profession engages with you, even if in the beginning for legal and legitimate reasons, do you think for even a second the doctor wouldn't, I don't know, at least allude to the idea that he had other resources to improve Tiger's performance?

I mean really, you are not talking about some guy he looked up in the yellow pages because he had a stomach bug. At the very least, it would be incredibly unlikely that Woods wasn't, at some point, aware of the doctors side business, and it is as likely he partook.
[/quote]

That's fine.

And you and some others would think the same.

Including people and institutions with considerable resources who would see an enormous return on finding any scrap of evidence/witness of your opinoin.

Yet not one person has ever even hinted at first hand knowledge of ped use by TW.
[/quote]

You can't "hint" at something like that. In a case such as this, especially when a physician is under federal investigation and pending charges, any "hint" would immediatly result in a subpoena. Also, to be honest, do you think someone such as this physician, in the process of committing a federal crime, kept documents on his own wrong doing? Appointment log, at 9:30am I injected Tiger Woods with a federally regulated substance for no acceptable medical reason. Um... no. This is why when you see physicians and clinics get uncovered you only find "ties" between them and various athletes. Clemens and McNamee... the books only showed B12 Vitamin injections. Biogenesis and Braun, Braun only listed as being in clinic for consultations, no treatments. Balco and Bonds, Bonds was billed for training and legal supplements and B12 shots. Nobody in their right mind would be keeping actual records of their own illegal activities! Why dig your own grave if you get caught? The only reason any of these guys got outed is that McNamee was given some immunity for his outing of Clemens.

If any third party did know, they may not want to get involved in such a legal proceeding. Being a federal witness is far from a vacation. I can imagine getting death threats, public ridicule, and just being accused of trying to save your own behind, even if you are telling the truth. Remember the crucifiction of Brian McNamee following his allegations on Clemens, and he had proof! Clemens lawyers flat shredded this guy, and even managed to cast reasonable doubt on him and his evidence, saying anyone who would save a syringe knew he'd need it to bail himself out, and that he most likely swapped the syringe portion for one containing steroids from another client. Then Clemens claimed HGH sent to his home was for his wife... right.

Like I have said all along, the only people who would know are Tiger, and anyone else who he told or who injected him.

I really don't care if he took them, with or without PEDs Tiger's feats were unpreceedented and amazing. It is also fairly likely he was not on PEDs at a young age, I'll side with many here and say he was a wire when he first started winning. There has been an entire era of professional sports tainted with PED use, and I just wouldn't be surprised if this included golf.

Jose Canseco may not be the best guy to take advice from, but some of the stuff in his book is really logical. He asks if you were on a riverbank, and you knew the river was filled with all kinds of deadly animals, but there was 20 million dollars on the other side, would you swim for it? He makes the assumption that a really high percentage of people would, and I agree. Then he asks if the same scenario exsisted, but rather than swim a river of deadly animals, you just had to stick a needle in your backside, would you then? He says almost everyone would, and I agree with this too.

My high school coach used to say "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flys like a duck... its must be a duck". He used to use this when calling players out on being lazy or soft, and as silly as it is, its kinda true.

The evidence against Tiger makes it look like he at the very least might be a duck, so suspesion is reasonable.

At no point have I made any real argument about whether or not he did use PEDs, I've just provided a ton of real info on PEDs from my prior experiences in a sport where PED use was running wild, and it was all being publicized while I was there. With all of the cases I've brought up, its been nothing but facts. No accusations.

I'll leave you with one other one. Ryan Braun. Guy actually failed a drug test for testosterone, and escaped via loophole because the tester didn't send the sample out on time. During the entire proccess he proclaimed innocence. He demanded the test had been tampered with. Fast forward several months, he's cleared and telling all the media how wrong they were about him, how unfairly they treated him. When responding to questions about his innocence being questionable due to a loophole only, he tells people how crazy that is, and that he's clean and the system worked how it was supposed to in a situation of tampering.

Then biogenesis drops... ooops. Whose name is on the list, you guessed it. The head guy at biogenesis even comes out and says Braun only consulted him, that no wrong doing occured. Fast forward several months again...

Braun cuts a deal with the MLB for a huge suspension as long as the details of his involvement with Biogenesis be left confidencial. Innocent people don't just take 100+ game unpaid suspensions.

I'm just trying to make a point that Woods involvement with the PED physician is a really, really, bad sign. You have Bonds, Braun, Clemens... all linked to a PED distributor, and only Clemens was outed, the distributors involved, for whatever reason (probably they signed a legally binding confidenciality agreement, were paid off, or both) decided not to out these guys. Its a virtual certaintly that Clemens did it, though they couldn't catch him, we all know Bonds was up to something, they didn't catch him, and Braun failed a test and nearly escaped.

I think its perfectly reasonable to suspect Woods. There is just a boatload of circumstantial evidence, lucky for him, its all circumstantial.

So back to my original question...

Someone says they have an envelope with the definitive answer on Woods use of PEDs. The contents of this envelope simply says "yes, he used PEDs" or "no, he did not use PEDs". You have one shot, guess correctly you get a million bucks... what do you say?

[bscinstnct]

Good stuff, mahamilto. And well composed.

I think you should ask yourself.

If you were TW, would you take anything?

You beat the living crap out of everything already. You have seen peoples legacys destroyed. Everybody gets caught.

I think you make it clear

Do everything you can, but nothing illegal.

Thats how my mind works.

Ps, I had a coach who used to say,

"Dont think, do."

Now thats some advice tw should take.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424916540' post='11029907']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1424913364' post='11029525']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424909169' post='11029049']
[quote name='Matt J' timestamp='1424883349' post='11026173']
I can't understand how you fellas think Tiger knew Galea was into PEDs. Let's not forget Tiger saw him before he was caught. No one in their right mind that gets tested would seek Galea out after he was busted, not to mention I'm pretty sure he was asked not to "practice" states side after his plea. He was never licensed as a practitioner in the U.S.
[/quote]

High profile athletes with high profile agents throughly vet (look into the background of...) any doctor or related persona prior to engaging in activity with them. In addition, if you are profiting from PED distribution, and someone with Woods' assets and profession engages with you, even if in the beginning for legal and legitimate reasons, do you think for even a second the doctor wouldn't, I don't know, at least allude to the idea that he had other resources to improve Tiger's performance?

I mean really, you are not talking about some guy he looked up in the yellow pages because he had a stomach bug. At the very least, it would be incredibly unlikely that Woods wasn't, at some point, aware of the doctors side business, and it is as likely he partook.
[/quote]

That's fine.

And you and some others would think the same.

Including people and institutions with considerable resources who would see an enormous return on finding any scrap of evidence/witness of your opinoin.

Yet not one person has ever even hinted at first hand knowledge of ped use by TW.
[/quote]

You can't "hint" at something like that. In a case such as this, especially when a physician is under federal investigation and pending charges, any "hint" would immediatly result in a subpoena. Also, to be honest, do you think someone such as this physician, in the process of committing a federal crime, kept documents on his own wrong doing? Appointment log, at 9:30am I injected Tiger Woods with a federally regulated substance for no acceptable medical reason. Um... no. This is why when you see physicians and clinics get uncovered you only find "ties" between them and various athletes. Clemens and McNamee... the books only showed B12 Vitamin injections. Biogenesis and Braun, Braun only listed as being in clinic for consultations, no treatments. Balco and Bonds, Bonds was billed for training and legal supplements and B12 shots. Nobody in their right mind would be keeping actual records of their own illegal activities! Why dig your own grave if you get caught? The only reason any of these guys got outed is that McNamee was given some immunity for his outing of Clemens.

If any third party did know, they may not want to get involved in such a legal proceeding. Being a federal witness is far from a vacation. I can imagine getting death threats, public ridicule, and just being accused of trying to save your own behind, even if you are telling the truth. Remember the crucifiction of Brian McNamee following his allegations on Clemens, and he had proof! Clemens lawyers flat shredded this guy, and even managed to cast reasonable doubt on him and his evidence, saying anyone who would save a syringe knew he'd need it to bail himself out, and that he most likely swapped the syringe portion for one containing steroids from another client. Then Clemens claimed HGH sent to his home was for his wife... right.

Like I have said all along, the only people who would know are Tiger, and anyone else who he told or who injected him.

I really don't care if he took them, with or without PEDs Tiger's feats were unpreceedented and amazing. It is also fairly likely he was not on PEDs at a young age, I'll side with many here and say he was a wire when he first started winning. There has been an entire era of professional sports tainted with PED use, and I just wouldn't be surprised if this included golf.

Jose Canseco may not be the best guy to take advice from, but some of the stuff in his book is really logical. He asks if you were on a riverbank, and you knew the river was filled with all kinds of deadly animals, but there was 20 million dollars on the other side, would you swim for it? He makes the assumption that a really high percentage of people would, and I agree. Then he asks if the same scenario exsisted, but rather than swim a river of deadly animals, you just had to stick a needle in your backside, would you then? He says almost everyone would, and I agree with this too.

My high school coach used to say "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flys like a duck... its must be a duck". He used to use this when calling players out on being lazy or soft, and as silly as it is, its kinda true.

The evidence against Tiger makes it look like he at the very least might be a duck, so suspesion is reasonable.

At no point have I made any real argument about whether or not he did use PEDs, I've just provided a ton of real info on PEDs from my prior experiences in a sport where PED use was running wild, and it was all being publicized while I was there. With all of the cases I've brought up, its been nothing but facts. No accusations.

I'll leave you with one other one. Ryan Braun. Guy actually failed a drug test for testosterone, and escaped via loophole because the tester didn't send the sample out on time. During the entire proccess he proclaimed innocence. He demanded the test had been tampered with. Fast forward several months, he's cleared and telling all the media how wrong they were about him, how unfairly they treated him. When responding to questions about his innocence being questionable due to a loophole only, he tells people how crazy that is, and that he's clean and the system worked how it was supposed to in a situation of tampering.

Then biogenesis drops... ooops. Whose name is on the list, you guessed it. The head guy at biogenesis even comes out and says Braun only consulted him, that no wrong doing occured. Fast forward several months again...

Braun cuts a deal with the MLB for a huge suspension as long as the details of his involvement with Biogenesis be left confidencial. Innocent people don't just take 100+ game unpaid suspensions.

I'm just trying to make a point that Woods involvement with the PED physician is a really, really, bad sign. You have Bonds, Braun, Clemens... all linked to a PED distributor, and only Clemens was outed, the distributors involved, for whatever reason (probably they signed a legally binding confidenciality agreement, were paid off, or both) decided not to out these guys. Its a virtual certaintly that Clemens did it, though they couldn't catch him, we all know Bonds was up to something, they didn't catch him, and Braun failed a test and nearly escaped.

I think its perfectly reasonable to suspect Woods. There is just a boatload of circumstantial evidence, lucky for him, its all circumstantial.

So back to my original question...

Someone says they have an envelope with the definitive answer on Woods use of PEDs. The contents of this envelope simply says "yes, he used PEDs" or "no, he did not use PEDs". You have one shot, guess correctly you get a million bucks... what do you say?
[/quote]

An endless post about people that have nothing to do with Tiger isn't a "boatload" of any kind of evidence.

[Mahamilto]

I think Woods, among the others listed, would never assume they would get caught.

If he did in fact do it, it would have been what, circa 2004-2006? (I'm guessing here so feel free to correct) Most of the major inquiries hadn't occured by then, the ones that did were in Baseball, but there was no reason to believe people would be looking into golf of all things.

As for would I have done anything if I was Tiger? I'm really not sure. I'd like to think no, but it is really hard to place yourself in his shoes.

You have to realize that Tiger wasn't playing against the PGA tour in that era, he was playing against history. He wanted to ensure that he went down as the greatest of all time, he had every intention of flattening every legends records.

Nobody expected cycling to be so dirty, all those guys are rail thin! But, Lance Armstrong had already won several tour de france events, yet he kept doing EPO for a competitive advantage, and claimed innocence forever as well. He eventually caved and said he was doing it to keep the playing field level, as everyone was doing it. He was probably right, but it doesn't mean he didn't break the rules.

In the end, the whole reason I got so involved in this thread was the sheer volume of misinformation being tossed around as fact. I figured I would share some inside details on real testing policies, the exsistance of loopholes, how positive results are masked by many in pro sports and the like. I feel that the media has sensationalized a lot of this, and the real story of how dirty sports are is somewhere in between Canseco's account and the media portrayal. The only way to stop PED use is by better testing, such as the WADA "biological passport" now used in the olympics.

The "biological passport" is a full blood and serum profile done multiple times over the course of several years. They take urine and blood 3-4 times a year, test it for banned substances, then average your results. If you were clean when you stated, it is really hard to do anything anabolically beneficial without raising suspecion when your next levels come back significantly different. Even if you were passing tests somehow, the discrepancies in your numbers would make WADA launch an investigation into you. Currently, cycling and olympics are the only groups with this testing. As for the rest of pro sports, they either have a laughable testing policy (the NFL for example), or one that is passable if you know what you are doing (MLB).

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424918200' post='11030111']
An endless post about people that have nothing to do with Tiger isn't a "boatload" of any kind of evidence.

[/quote]

The "boatload" was referring to link to a known PED distributor, a significant change of body compostition after exiting his "athletic prime", the current rash of injuries (like it or not many known PED users have had similar injuries, could be a coincidence, could not be), and the fact that he had a major sex scandal that would lead to, at the very least, a question of moral integrity.

As for the post being endless... nobody forced you to read it. Sorry for bringing an abundance of relavent information into a post with a ton of questionable posts in it. The reality is that Tiger's current situation mirrors many of the ones I mentioned, and I feel that is 100% relavent, but by no means called it evidence. Its all circumstantial, but relavent.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424918830' post='11030175']
I think Woods, among the others listed, would never assume they would get caught.

If he did in fact do it, it would have been what, circa 2004-2006? (I'm guessing here so feel free to correct) Most of the major inquiries hadn't occured by then, the ones that did were in Baseball, but there was no reason to believe people would be looking into golf of all things.

As for would I have done anything if I was Tiger? I'm really not sure. I'd like to think no, but it is really hard to place yourself in his shoes.

You have to realize that Tiger wasn't playing against the PGA tour in that era, he was playing against history. He wanted to ensure that he went down as the greatest of all time, he had every intention of flattening every legends records.

Nobody expected cycling to be so dirty, all those guys are rail thin! But, Lance Armstrong had already won several tour de france events, yet he kept doing EPO for a competitive advantage, and claimed innocence forever as well. He eventually caved and said he was doing it to keep the playing field level, as everyone was doing it. He was probably right, but it doesn't mean he didn't break the rules.

In the end, the whole reason I got so involved in this thread was the sheer volume of misinformation being tossed around as fact. I figured I would share some inside details on real testing policies, the exsistance of loopholes, how positive results are masked by many in pro sports and the like. I feel that the media has sensationalized a lot of this, and the real story of how dirty sports are is somewhere in between Canseco's account and the media portrayal. The only way to stop PED use is by better testing, such as the WADA "biological passport" now used in the olympics.

The "biological passport" is a full blood and serum profile done multiple times over the course of several years. They take urine and blood 3-4 times a year, test it for banned substances, then average your results. If you were clean when you stated, it is really hard to do anything anabolically beneficial without raising suspecion when your next levels come back significantly different. Even if you were passing tests somehow, the discrepancies in your numbers would make WADA launch an investigation into you. Currently, cycling and olympics are the only groups with this testing. As for the rest of pro sports, they either have a laughable testing policy (the NFL for example), or one that is passable if you know what you are doing (MLB).
[/quote]

"If he did in fact do it, it would have been what, circa 2004-2006? (I'm guessing here so feel free to correct) Most of the major inquiries hadn't occured by then, the ones that did were in Baseball, but there was no reason to believe people would be looking into golf of all things."



TW saw galea in 2009.



Meantime,In 2007>


Former Senator George J. Mitchell released a blistering report Thursday that tied 89 Major League Baseball players, including Roger Clemens, to the use of illegal, performance-enhancing drugs. The report used informant testimony and supporting documents to provide a richly detailed portrait of what Mr. Mitchell described as “baseball’s steroids era.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/sports/baseball/14mitchell.html?_r=0

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424919156' post='11030211']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424918200' post='11030111']
An endless post about people that have nothing to do with Tiger isn't a "boatload" of any kind of evidence.

[/quote]

The "boatload" was referring to link to a known PED distributor, a significant change of body compostition after exiting his "athletic prime", the current rash of injuries (like it or not many known PED users have had similar injuries, could be a coincidence, could not be), and the fact that he had a major sex scandal that would lead to, at the very least, a question of moral integrity.

As for the post being endless... nobody forced you to read it. Sorry for bringing an abundance of relavent information into a post with a ton of questionable posts in it. The reality is that Tiger's current situation mirrors many of the ones I mentioned, and I feel that is 100% relavent, but by no means called it evidence. Its all circumstantial, but relavent.
[/quote]

Yes, but very little is relevant.

I get that you are proud of the post but other than Galea, which proves nothing, the rest is either untrue or an unreasonable stretch.

[Mahamilto]

Really? What did you find irrelevant? More importantly, What part is "untrue"?

1) I said that I wasn't sure of the dates of Tiger's alleged PED use, hence the asking to be corrected.
2) I said that by 2006 most of the inquiries had not taken place, except in baseball. 2007 the Mitchell report came out, the report took more than a year to be produced. 2003 began an era of testing without punishment, results went to Selig and he was then to evaluate if there was a problem in baseball... there clearly was. In fact, the first suspicions of Arod came from these 2003 tests, as though they were supposed to be sealed, like the Mitchell report names, but someone leaked them.

I've said all along none of this proves anything.

I just figured considering this thread went 23 pages, and I happen to have an absolute ton of knowledge of the subject, both from a biochemical and professional sports background, it might be interesting to some people who are following the thread to have an inside look, as much of the info on PEDs and drug testing is sensational media garbage.

Just because someone offered their knowledge of a subject doesn't mean you need to be rude to them... and I'd love to know what you felt was untrue.

[Hawkeye77]

Dissent doesn't equal rudeness.

So you need to be sure of the dates of Tiger's alleged PED use so you can be sure to know when to allege that's when he used?

In the end, after 23 pages, the speculation without evidence continues.

[nochct1]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424916540' post='11029907']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1424913364' post='11029525']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424909169' post='11029049']
[quote name='Matt J' timestamp='1424883349' post='11026173']
I can't understand how you fellas think Tiger knew Galea was into PEDs. Let's not forget Tiger saw him before he was caught. No one in their right mind that gets tested would seek Galea out after he was busted, not to mention I'm pretty sure he was asked not to "practice" states side after his plea. He was never licensed as a practitioner in the U.S.
[/quote]

High profile athletes with high profile agents throughly vet (look into the background of...) any doctor or related persona prior to engaging in activity with them. In addition, if you are profiting from PED distribution, and someone with Woods' assets and profession engages with you, even if in the beginning for legal and legitimate reasons, do you think for even a second the doctor wouldn't, I don't know, at least allude to the idea that he had other resources to improve Tiger's performance?

I mean really, you are not talking about some guy he looked up in the yellow pages because he had a stomach bug. At the very least, it would be incredibly unlikely that Woods wasn't, at some point, aware of the doctors side business, and it is as likely he partook.
[/quote]

That's fine.

And you and some others would think the same.

Including people and institutions with considerable resources who would see an enormous return on finding any scrap of evidence/witness of your opinoin.

Yet not one person has ever even hinted at first hand knowledge of ped use by TW.
[/quote]

You can't "hint" at something like that. In a case such as this, especially when a physician is under federal investigation and pending charges, any "hint" would immediatly result in a subpoena. Also, to be honest, do you think someone such as this physician, in the process of committing a federal crime, kept documents on his own wrong doing? Appointment log, at 9:30am I injected Tiger Woods with a federally regulated substance for no acceptable medical reason. Um... no. This is why when you see physicians and clinics get uncovered you only find "ties" between them and various athletes. Clemens and McNamee... the books only showed B12 Vitamin injections. Biogenesis and Braun, Braun only listed as being in clinic for consultations, no treatments. Balco and Bonds, Bonds was billed for training and legal supplements and B12 shots. Nobody in their right mind would be keeping actual records of their own illegal activities! Why dig your own grave if you get caught? The only reason any of these guys got outed is that McNamee was given some immunity for his outing of Clemens.

If any third party did know, they may not want to get involved in such a legal proceeding. Being a federal witness is far from a vacation. I can imagine getting death threats, public ridicule, and just being accused of trying to save your own behind, even if you are telling the truth. Remember the crucifiction of Brian McNamee following his allegations on Clemens, and he had proof! Clemens lawyers flat shredded this guy, and even managed to cast reasonable doubt on him and his evidence, saying anyone who would save a syringe knew he'd need it to bail himself out, and that he most likely swapped the syringe portion for one containing steroids from another client. Then Clemens claimed HGH sent to his home was for his wife... right.

Like I have said all along, the only people who would know are Tiger, and anyone else who he told or who injected him.

I really don't care if he took them, with or without PEDs Tiger's feats were unpreceedented and amazing. It is also fairly likely he was not on PEDs at a young age, I'll side with many here and say he was a wire when he first started winning. There has been an entire era of professional sports tainted with PED use, and I just wouldn't be surprised if this included golf.

Jose Canseco may not be the best guy to take advice from, but some of the stuff in his book is really logical. He asks if you were on a riverbank, and you knew the river was filled with all kinds of deadly animals, but there was 20 million dollars on the other side, would you swim for it? He makes the assumption that a really high percentage of people would, and I agree. Then he asks if the same scenario exsisted, but rather than swim a river of deadly animals, you just had to stick a needle in your backside, would you then? He says almost everyone would, and I agree with this too.

My high school coach used to say "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flys like a duck... its must be a duck". He used to use this when calling players out on being lazy or soft, and as silly as it is, its kinda true.

The evidence against Tiger makes it look like he at the very least might be a duck, so suspesion is reasonable.

At no point have I made any real argument about whether or not he did use PEDs, I've just provided a ton of real info on PEDs from my prior experiences in a sport where PED use was running wild, and it was all being publicized while I was there. With all of the cases I've brought up, its been nothing but facts. No accusations.

I'll leave you with one other one. Ryan Braun. Guy actually failed a drug test for testosterone, and escaped via loophole because the tester didn't send the sample out on time. During the entire proccess he proclaimed innocence. He demanded the test had been tampered with. Fast forward several months, he's cleared and telling all the media how wrong they were about him, how unfairly they treated him. When responding to questions about his innocence being questionable due to a loophole only, he tells people how crazy that is, and that he's clean and the system worked how it was supposed to in a situation of tampering.

Then biogenesis drops... ooops. Whose name is on the list, you guessed it. The head guy at biogenesis even comes out and says Braun only consulted him, that no wrong doing occured. Fast forward several months again...

Braun cuts a deal with the MLB for a huge suspension as long as the details of his involvement with Biogenesis be left confidencial. Innocent people don't just take 100+ game unpaid suspensions.

I'm just trying to make a point that Woods involvement with the PED physician is a really, really, bad sign. You have Bonds, Braun, Clemens... all linked to a PED distributor, and only Clemens was outed, the distributors involved, for whatever reason (probably they signed a legally binding confidenciality agreement, were paid off, or both) decided not to out these guys. Its a virtual certaintly that Clemens did it, though they couldn't catch him, we all know Bonds was up to something, they didn't catch him, and Braun failed a test and nearly escaped.

I think its perfectly reasonable to suspect Woods. There is just a boatload of circumstantial evidence, lucky for him, its all circumstantial.

So back to my original question...

Someone says they have an envelope with the definitive answer on Woods use of PEDs. The contents of this envelope simply says "yes, he used PEDs" or "no, he did not use PEDs". You have one shot, guess correctly you get a million bucks... what do you say?
[/quote]

You forgot about Patrick Chan and his relationship with Galea. Now Patrick is only a figure skater, but he was an Olympic figure skater who used PRP legally. In fact, Galea has been recognized by others in the medical field for his expertise in PRP. He certainly went down the wrong path with HGH, but all signs point to a lot of his work, especially early on being centered around PRP and not HGH.

One other thing, looking a the list from the ESPN article. Which athlete could be Woods? Would it be "Athlete D." I don't have the article in front of me, but which treatment did "athlete D in Orlando" recieve?

Here some good info about Galea and Chan http://t.thestar.com/#/article/sports/olympics/2009/10/20/chan_uses_cuttingedge_procedure_to_put_hurt_on_injury.html

[Mahamilto]

I'd have to say that referring to someones comments as "endless", saying it has "nothing to do with" the subject matter, and claiming it is "irrelavent" and "untrue" are all fairly rude, but considering its written word, it would be difficult to determine your tone.

Either way, what was untrue?

[nochct1]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424919156' post='11030211']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424918200' post='11030111']
An endless post about people that have nothing to do with Tiger isn't a "boatload" of any kind of evidence.

[/quote]

The "boatload" was referring to link to a known PED distributor, a significant change of body compostition after exiting his "athletic prime", the current rash of injuries (like it or not many known PED users have had similar injuries, could be a coincidence, could not be), and the fact that he had a major sex scandal that would lead to, at the very least, a question of moral integrity.

As for the post being endless... nobody forced you to read it. Sorry for bringing an abundance of relavent information into a post with a ton of questionable posts in it. The reality is that Tiger's current situation mirrors many of the ones I mentioned, and I feel that is 100% relavent, but by no means called it evidence. Its all circumstantial, but relavent.
[/quote]

How would you explain Adam Scott's body? Just look at pictures of him at age 18 vs now. He is in incredible shape. Can he do that without PEDs? Or was it just Tiger that needed them for a significant change in body composition?

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424922116' post='11030507']
Dissent doesn't equal rudeness.

So you need to be sure of the dates of Tiger's alleged PED use so you can be sure to know when to allege that's when he used?

In the end, after 23 pages, the speculation without evidence continues.
[/quote]

Lets see......ARod has only admitted to using PED's roughly two times.....about the same amount that Pettitte admitted to using....yet for whatever reason ( prior character ) ARod was nailed to the max and the other merely a slap on the wrist.

So anything said about ARod and PED usage is greatly aggregated or without concrete dates of use is without merit and speculation????

Look, I don't know if Tiger used PED's or not.....but I think anybody who "thinks" or speculates that he may have, isn't without some merit. Tigers injuries and ailments certainly can and do look suspect as commonly known side effects of PED usage. Tigers dealings with questionable people certainly can be factored into what people may or may not think about him. He is a public figure, famous athlete, and in todays world, being under the microscope/spotlight is just part of the deal.

For whatever reason, the gov has gotten involved with some other high profile athletes , and have either tried to bring them down, or have done so. I don't see that happening anytime soon with Tiger, so that might be a good thing for those who don't think he hasn't used.

But even for those that have admitted, been convicted, to make any claims other than to those " exact" dates of guilt, its all speculation and this thread is all about speculation, the thread doesn't say Tiger is guilty.

Obviously 20 plus pages of speculation isn't enough.....let the WRX trial continue until they padlock it....

For the record....I have no sure speculative opinion whether he used or didn't......but I would not be surprised if it comes out that he is found guilty of usage .

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1424924008' post='11030639']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424919156' post='11030211']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424918200' post='11030111']
An endless post about people that have nothing to do with Tiger isn't a "boatload" of any kind of evidence.

[/quote]

The "boatload" was referring to link to a known PED distributor, a significant change of body compostition after exiting his "athletic prime", the current rash of injuries (like it or not many known PED users have had similar injuries, could be a coincidence, could not be), and the fact that he had a major sex scandal that would lead to, at the very least, a question of moral integrity.

As for the post being endless... nobody forced you to read it. Sorry for bringing an abundance of relavent information into a post with a ton of questionable posts in it. The reality is that Tiger's current situation mirrors many of the ones I mentioned, and I feel that is 100% relavent, but by no means called it evidence. Its all circumstantial, but relavent.
[/quote]

How would you explain Adam Scott's body? Just look at pictures of him at age 18 vs now. He is in incredible shape. Can he do that without PEDs? Or was it just Tiger that needed them for a significant change in body composition?
[/quote]

Exactly! Anyone can "see" Adam is in better shape now so must be juicing. Bill Clinton cheated on his wife = on steroids. Paul Casey has had some injury problems, Snedeker lots of them - juicers.

That's about the sum total of the "boatload".

[slimeone]

I love a good scandal as much as everyone, but I think accusations at Scott are a stretch. He's not that ripped. He has the body of an athlete on a fitness regime. He's also quite placid both on and off the course without a hint of roid rage.

[avrag]

[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424918830' post='11030175']
Nobody expected cycling to be so dirty, all those guys are rail thin!
[/quote]

This is the first time I have to disagree with you, but perhaps I only fail to detect your sarcasm. .
In countries, in which professional cycling has a century long tradition (France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands) everybody with an ounce of knowledge and experience in the sport suspected that the use of all sorts of PEDs was common practice in cycling. The only question was if and when somebody would talk and if and when states would make doping a crime so that official law enforcement would get involved. Once that happened in Spain, Italy and France, it was clear that many things (although still not everything) would come to light.
Cycling was the first truly professional sport in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century, and once this began, the cyclists also started using anything they could get their hands on to enhance their performance, including cocaine and other drugs. Perhaps this is the reason why people in Europe see PEDs a bit broader than people in the US obviously do. The fact that somebody is "thin" would never lead people around here to think that he doesn't take anything illegal.
The equation that only substances which make muscles larger are PEDs is so naive, it is hard to comprehend. That's why I always have to laugh when people start arguing, whether Tiger looks like a linebacker or like a corner.

[nochct1]

[quote name='slimeone' timestamp='1424938631' post='11031249']
I love a good scandal as much as everyone, but I think accusations at Scott are a stretch. He's not that ripped. He has the body of an athlete on a fitness regime. He's also quite placid both on and off the course without a hint of roid rage.
[/quote]

There no accusation of Scott doing anything. I brought up the point that someone like Adam Scott was able to transform his body through dedication to working out. So why is it so hard to think that Tiger did the same thing....much like Rory is doing right now. And yes, Adam Scott is that big. Just do a quick google images search. He's bigger than Tiger and started out just as skinny. Again, start working out every day at age 20 and see how you look when you're 35. No "roids" needed. No HGH needed.

As for "roid rage", are you saying that someone like Tiger shows roid rage? It what way?

[golfortennis]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424922116' post='11030507']
Dissent doesn't equal rudeness.


[/quote]

No, but your response was not dissent.

You're better than that, Hawkeye.

[Mahamilto]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1424942219' post='11031307']
[quote name='Mahamilto' timestamp='1424918830' post='11030175']
Nobody expected cycling to be so dirty, all those guys are rail thin!
[/quote]

This is the first time I have to disagree with you, but perhaps I only fail to detect your sarcasm. .
In countries, in which professional cycling has a century long tradition (France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands) everybody with an ounce of knowledge and experience in the sport suspected that the use of all sorts of PEDs was common practice in cycling. The only question was if and when somebody would talk and if and when states would make doping a crime so that official law enforcement would get involved. Once that happened in Spain, Italy and France, it was clear that many things (although still not everything) would come to light.
Cycling was the first truly professional sport in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century, and once this began, the cyclists also started using anything they could get their hands on to enhance their performance, including cocaine and other drugs. Perhaps this is the reason why people in Europe see PEDs a bit broader than people in the US obviously do. The fact that somebody is "thin" would never lead people around here to think that he doesn't take anything illegal.
The equation that only substances which make muscles larger are PEDs is so naive, it is hard to comprehend. That's why I always have to laugh when people start arguing, whether Tiger looks like a linebacker or like a corner.
[/quote]

I was meaning that most people not involved in the sport would not make the connection to cycling and anabolic use.

[hogans71]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1424958185' post='11031759']
[quote name='slimeone' timestamp='1424938631' post='11031249']
I love a good scandal as much as everyone, but I think accusations at Scott are a stretch. He's not that ripped. He has the body of an athlete on a fitness regime. He's also quite placid both on and off the course without a hint of roid rage.
[/quote]

There no accusation of Scott doing anything. I brought up the point that someone like Adam Scott was able to transform his body through dedication to working out. So why is it so hard to think that Tiger did the same thing....much like Rory is doing right now. And yes, Adam Scott is that big. Just do a quick google images search. He's bigger than Tiger and started out just as skinny. Again, start working out every day at age 20 and see how you look when you're 35. No "roids" needed. No HGH needed.

As for "roid rage", are you saying that someone like Tiger shows roid rage? It what way?
[/quote]

Adam Scott transformed his body? From what to what?

I'm of the opinion that no, TW did not use PED's. But compared to 1996, 2009 TW is night and day. AS on the other hand,I just fail to see any drastic transformation...

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424922116' post='11030507']
Dissent doesn't equal rudeness.

So you need to be sure of the dates of Tiger's alleged PED use so you can be sure to know when to allege that's when he used?

In the end, after 23 pages, the speculation without evidence continues.
[/quote]

Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it's not evidence.

[Mahamilto]

The whole purpose of this thread was to demand that people stop making "irrational speculations" about Woods.

The whole purpose of my posts was to give factual information on the current situation and previous situations of drug testing in professional sport, provide some links to Tiger's current situation and others with similar situations, and make the assertion that those links, combined with timing of alleged use, incompentance of testing policies, and a lack of moral compass (at least in some respect), warrants speculation.

That's it! For some reason people think that validating the suspesion against Woods is a huge issue. I guess were just going to have to disagree.

People start making outlandish comments about how Adam Scott gained muscle, so by my perspective he must be on steroids, or how Clinton cheated on his wife, and then my perspective says he's on steroids too... Um, What?

I said Woods use is probable due to the combaniation of all the connections and circumstances, and all along said it isn't a guarantee, just its reasonable to be suspecious. I said repetedly that PED use does not equate gains in mass, and in addition, gains in mass do not implicate someone in PED use, but Adam Scott is in an era where testing is much more present than 2009 and before. And the Clinton thing? I'm sure it was a joke but what would he stand to gain from PED use... unless you include viagra.

Woods was chasing history, in an era where testing was a joke, is linked to PED distribution, having injuries consistent with ex-users, and has had a questionable moral past. At no point did I say these things mean he did PEDs, just that it makes suspecion REASONABLE.

It is like a criminal court case.

Motive? Check.

Opportunity? Check.

Prior history of moral offenses? Check.

This is how people build cases when they don't have a confession or DNA/fingerprint evidence.

Is speculation warranted? The whole point of this thread was to say no, and I say it is a resounding yes. That's all.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1424973907' post='11033359']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1424922116' post='11030507']
Dissent doesn't equal rudeness.


[/quote]

No, but your response was not dissent.

You're better than that, Hawkeye.
[/quote]

I'll review it, and thank you.

Edit: My threshold for sarcasm is a lot higher than most, but the "endless post" remark was probably a little much - no need for pre-emptive strike when we hadn't even gotten to an argument yet. I won't blame it on "roid rage", so my apologies.

I don't know why I jump in on these steroid threads, should know better.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1424958185' post='11031759']
[quote name='slimeone' timestamp='1424938631' post='11031249']
I love a good scandal as much as everyone, but I think accusations at Scott are a stretch. He's not that ripped. He has the body of an athlete on a fitness regime. He's also quite placid both on and off the course without a hint of roid rage.
[/quote]

There no accusation of Scott doing anything. I brought up the point that someone like Adam Scott was able to transform his body through dedication to working out. So why is it so hard to think that Tiger did the same thing....much like Rory is doing right now. And yes, Adam Scott is that big. Just do a quick google images search. He's bigger than Tiger and started out just as skinny. Again, start working out every day at age 20 and see how you look when you're 35. No "roids" needed. No HGH needed.

As for "roid rage", are you saying that someone like Tiger shows roid rage? It what way?
[/quote]

It's not hard to think Tiger, or anybody else could do the same thing. If Tiger hadn't had all these injuries and been linked to Galea, I don't think anybody would think he'd used steroids...at least I wouldn't.

[puttingmatt]

In this day and age, hard to imagine
any sports figure that is not using
some form of PEDS. From hgh to antler
spray, really VJ, what does this stuff
do for a golfer ?

[bscinstnct]

TW 'body transformation' is meaningless. Anybody who works out looks like that. Anybody. TW just looked like any other athlete who works out but the golf world was way behind.

 

Injuries are meaningless to the argument. As I pointed out, Snedeker had 2 hip surgeries, Delaet back surgery, Stricker 2 back surgeries. That took 2 minutes to find.

 

 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing, zero, nada material to suggest TW took peds prior to 2009. The most famous athlete on the planet and not ONE person ever directly accused TW of taking PEDs.

 

 

 

 

Galea is the "smoke". But I don't see why he risks his plea deal (I believe he made a deal, right?) with the Feds for TW. In addition,

 

"I tell you categorically that Tiger did not receive either banned or performance-enhancing drugs when treating with Dr. Galea," said attorney Rod Personius in an email to the Daily News.

 

http://articles.chic...r-anthony-galea

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ladies and Gentleman, the states case is a sham, an insult to your intelligence. Go grab a sandwich in the jury room and return the ONLY possible verdict.

 

 

[Mahamilto]

A verdict, criminally, reflects reasonable doubt. Suspensions, or proceeding to a criminal trial, are based on reasonable suspicions.

At this point, it's reasonable to suspect Woods and impossible to proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that he did use PEDs.

The evidence (even though some disagree on it being good evidence) is there, but the proof isn't.

If we just accepted what people said as true, we would have more murderers walking around free.

Look at famous botched cases, I'll name two. George Zimmernan and OJ Simpson. Both men have since continued to engage in criminal activity, and probably did commit their respective crimes.

Time will tell on Woods, but I ask, would anyone really be floored if evidence popped up tomorrow proving his PED use? I think most Woods supporters would say it wouldn't be a huge shock.

[tembolo1284]

why is steroids performance enhancing in golf? Doesn't he still need to be precise? It might help with his power, but that's only once aspect of the game....and means nothing without being somewhat accurate.

He can't just bash it 500 yards and hope it works out.