The Sandbagging Madness has to stop...

[DavePelz4]

One year ago I played in the Naperville city senior championship with approximately 150 players. It was my first true competitive event in 30+ years. The person who won the net was a 14 handicap who had posted 85 as his lowest round in a year. In the 2 day event he shot -24 net with gross rounds of 75-73.

 

This past Wednesday and Thursday was the 2014 city senior championship. Here are the last 2 years of scores posted by the person who won. This is directly cut and pasted from the CDGA (Chicago District Golf Association). Please note that the only two rounds he shot in the 80's were in tournaments.

 

Scoring Record Handicap History

MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff

6/14 98 T 72.2 131 22.3

6/14 97 H 69.8 126 24.4

6/14 99 H 71.1 129 24.4

6/14 101 T 72.1 138 23.7

6/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6

6/14 105 T 71.6 137 27.5

6/14 96 H 71.1 129 21.8

6/14 100 H 71.1 129 25.3

5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7

5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7

5/14 95 H 71.1 129 20.9

5/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6

8/13 87 T 68.6 120 17.3

8/13 84 T 68.3 122 14.5

6/13 91 H 68.3 122 21

6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1

6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9

6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1

6/13 96 H 71.1 129 21.8

6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9

 

This is August...and he hasn't posted a score since June. Seriously. You already know where this is going...the guy who posted 2 rounds in the 80's in 2 years shot gross 80-81 with a net score of -17. For entertainment purposes, the guy who won last year who is now a 12, shot a horrifically bad -13. Oh that sucks...how embarrassing.

 

When or how does this madness stop? I talked to the committee and presented facts...including the fact that this year's field was almost 50% less than last year because of the sandbagging. To say it's fallen upon non-caring ears would be an understatement. I threw out some great suggestions from our site including using tournament rounds only, using a percentage of handicap, etc.

 

Any suggestions from people who play in these kinds of events and how it's dealt with?

[barriec]

Look man, I can remember my father tearing out what little hair he had because of sand baggers...30 years ago. I understand your frustration but here is the truth:

Sand bagging is a dark unsolved reality of golf today, perhaps not tomorrow. Play competitively straight up for matches that matter and consider handicap events social laid-back events. This may mean less competitive opportunities for you unless you invest the time to find regular partners of like ability. Either see it for what it is and move on with your life or figure out how to enact change. I do know some people play at clubs that are highly intolerant of sand bagging and I am quite certain (having lived in Chicago) there are clubs that fit my description.

p.s. the finest Italian restaurant I ever ate at was in Naperville.

[mac94]

barrie, what was the restaurant's name?

[barriec]

Rosebud

[DavePelz4]

I run a series of events for a group of 12 guys who play straight up. Without hesitation, I'd trust them on anything and our winner is the one who plays the best vs their index. While realizing that getting to scratch is the ultimate answer, it's still BS on the highest level.

BTW...Rosebud burned down a year ago on Memorial Day...and moved into the death restaurant spot in DT N'Hell.

[rhh7]

I positively refuse to join the USGA or the Canadian equivalent, nor will I ever establish a handicap. I think it is obvious that many handicap tournaments are won by cheaters. I play golf for fun, not for prizes or for money. And I am not good enough to beat anyone anyway. Even if I were, I would only play in straight up, stroke play events.

[dan360]

I call them out publicly at the tournament. In front of as many people as I can. I also take note of what their bag looks like so later on I can pee in it/on it.

*edit*

Ok...I really don't pee in or on their bag. But I'd like to.

[Sean2]

I seriously feel your pain DP. I wish I were good enough to play in gross events. It's people like this that ruin competitive golf for those of us who don't have the HI to play in gross events. It's beyond annoying.

I don't understand how these "winners" feel like they won anything at the end of the day. Where is the sense of satisfaction one receives at winning a tournament based on hard work and your own skill as opposed to cheating?

Not to mention these people ruin the entire tournament experience for everyone. No wonder tournament participation drops. What surprises me is that after presenting your evidence the committee basically ignored you. I would think they would have DQ'd the "gentleman" in question.

This would have spoke volumes about the committee, and the following year you may actually see participation increase.

[Itsjustagame]

Sounds from your post like there was a gross division. Just focus on that and ignore net. People are going to cheat- it's human nature.
As several people have pointed out it's not really winning at all when you do it through cheating.
Probably the only way to control handicaps is through active handicap committees at member clubs.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='barriec' timestamp='1409372600' post='10034831']
Rosebud
[/quote]

What a lovely and typical Italian name for a restaurant

[mark m]

Dave: I did some hunting around and found the posted results and so on. Lots of problems IMO.

Q: It looks like his 2 best scores above (from 8/13) were from this tournament last year?
Q: It also looks like the Committee may have adjusted his handicap for this years tournament?
To 17 or he would have won by more as his HI of 19.1 would make for 20 CH? (If he got all 20, those scores would have been net 60 & 61 and he would have won by even more.) The fact that he played with the reduction and won anyway says a lot. Based on the history, maybe next year they say he gets 11 strokes and he may decline to play(?) If so, good riddance.

His scoring record: I think it's a joke. As you say, no rounds posted for July or August and then he lights it up. (Reminds me of Joey2 aces thread awhile back.) His best rounds in it were 'T' scores from last year. Never plays good in a non-tournament round. Best score this year was 20.9 diff. Those 2 new scores will both be about 11 differential - which is 9-10 strokes better than he played all year. After a 2 month break. If you take a look above, he did the same thing last year. No posted rounds after June and then good 'T' scores in this late August tournament.

Your fact that participation dropped to about 80 from 150 in one year says a lot. What to do? Stop rewarding the behavior. I have seen tournament committees not pay people. They tell them to leave and not come back. Takes cajones. You have to do the best you can at monitoring problem players. This would be a big challenge if the tournament was open to a large population of players. Many times all you are doing is looking at past results. It's hard to be proactive unless you know something solid.

Outside of that - this tournament is set up poorly. It pays too much to too few. The guys winning get handsomely rewarded - so there is a big incentive to cheat. Just a quick look at the prizes showed about $4000 in prizes for 80 guys. That's a lot and it should be spread around better. They paid 4 guys in gross and many in one giant net flight. If 80 players, I would use 4 flights of 20 players. Probably pay top 4 gross and top 4 net in Champ flight (cannot win both) and top 8 or so net in the other 3 flights. Something like that. If they don't do something, they will have 50 players for next year. Sad.

Rosebud! (I thought of Citizen Kane, not Italian food.)

[bk52]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1409371185' post='10034741']

Any suggestions from people who play in these kinds of events and how it's dealt with?
[/quote]

I agree with mark m, flighting the event at least limits the ability of a single player to spoil it for everyone. I note that the City Championship is flighted so it is not like that concept is foreign to the course managers.

Some tournaments use the lowest index for the prior 12 months. That at least prevents inflating one's handicap just prior to the event.

I also agree with mark m that the payout is a bit high. If first place pays a $50 clubhouse certificate and a small trophy, the sandbaggers don't consider it worth the effort. That leaves the rest of us to play for the sheer joy of competition with a nominal prize if we exceed our expectations.

Finally, Nick R shows an interesting pattern. He regularly plays the "Spring" course from the "Blue" tees (6,467 yards) and can't break 90. In fact his best score is 94. The senior championship is played at 5,859 yards. If I were going to attempt to inflate my handicap, I would do something similar. Play at a yardage that is too long for my game. Even though the rating/slope is supposed to account for the difference in difficulty, many of us recognize that there are times that the additional length of a further set of tees overwhelms our ability. There are courses where moving back a tee [u][i][b]in theory [/b][/i][/u]will add 2-3 strokes to my best round. The reality often is that I just don't have the game to handle the extra distance. Add an extra 30 yards to each hole and watch my scores soar.

[Ampire2121]

I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging

I did hear about the callaway handicap system. I don't know if there are competitive tournaments using that format.

[mark m]

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well
[/quote]

A sandbagger deliberately maintains an artificially high handicap so he can win net competitions.

Most people familiar with the handicap system understand that it is possible for legit players to have a very good net score every once in awhile. Repeatedly doing it is the problem. A much more uncommon phenomenom is a player who improves faster than the system can react. This often happens with players new to the game and tends to come through lessons/practice - instead of just new or properly fitted clubs. If the Handicap Committee knew of a player of this kind - or even better, the player proactively goes to the HC - the HC should do their best to adjust his handicap to a level that reflects his current ability if this player is going to play in a net competition. (These are very rare cases.)

[bk52]

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging
[/quote]

Interesting question. The handicap system depends on everyone always trying their best on each shot, hole and round to make the lowest score possible. If one's use of equipment was designed to manipulate one's scores to achieve a higher handicap, then the answer is yes, one is a sandbagger. If the use of XX Stiff Shafted Blades with an inconsistent 75 mph swing is purely from uninformed ego, it might pass the sniff test the first time.

[Ampire2121]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1409407452' post='10035785']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well
[/quote]

A sandbagger deliberately maintains an artificially high handicap so he can win net competitions.

Most people familiar with the handicap system understand that it is possible for legit players to have a very good net score every once in awhile. Repeatedly doing it is the problem. A much more uncommon phenomenom is a player who improves faster than the system can react. This often happens with players new to the game and tends to come through lessons/practice - instead of just new or properly fitted clubs. If the Handicap Committee knew of a player of this kind - or even better, the player proactively goes to the HC - the HC should do their best to adjust his handicap to a level that reflects his current ability if this player is going to play in a net competition. (These are very rare cases.)
[/quote]
Maybe if they had to put in what equipment you were using when posting your round may help weave out some sandbaggers? Someone who deliberately using equipment that inflate their score such as blades and than they can throw does scores out.

[mark m]

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409408197' post='10035827']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1409407452' post='10035785']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well
[/quote]

A sandbagger deliberately maintains an artificially high handicap so he can win net competitions.

Most people familiar with the handicap system understand that it is possible for legit players to have a very good net score every once in awhile. Repeatedly doing it is the problem. A much more uncommon phenomenom is a player who improves faster than the system can react. This often happens with players new to the game and tends to come through lessons/practice - instead of just new or properly fitted clubs. If the Handicap Committee knew of a player of this kind - or even better, the player proactively goes to the HC - the HC should do their best to adjust his handicap to a level that reflects his current ability if this player is going to play in a net competition. (These are very rare cases.)
[/quote]
Maybe if they had to put in what equipment you were using when posting your round may help weave out some sandbaggers? Someone who deliberately using equipment that inflate their score such as blades.
[/quote]

I understand your concern. But the system is already complicated enough. The ways to cheat are basically endless. What we need is players with honor and integrity. Now I sound like an ancient.....

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging

I did hear about the callaway handicap system. I don't know if there are competitive tournaments using that format.
[/quote]

Your irons are not going to simply throw you 10 strokes below your handicap. Just doesn't work that way.

[Ampire2121]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1409408717' post='10035857']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging

I did hear about the callaway handicap system. I don't know if there are competitive tournaments using that format.
[/quote]

Your irons are not going to simply throw you 10 strokes below your handicap. Just doesn't work that way.
[/quote]
I beg to differ but that's my personal view. As I've witness it first hand.

[MadGolfer76]

I know a particular club where a number of the members signed a note to a guy using fake names that said, "Sandbaggers aren't welcome here" and left it on his windshield at the end of the round. Seeing that many signatures (even with fakes names) made the point enough for him not to come back.

[lumberman2462]

I played in a tournament last year that had a gross and net division. Winning score on net was ridiculous....an 18 handicapper shot 76 gross.

[DavePelz4]

Not sure why they don't flight it more as is done with the city championship. Even last year they had a senior division and a super senior division. This year is it appears to be consolidated into one.

I'm also at a loss as to the response when I brought this up. It was professional and fact based, no negative tone (I think) and nothing was directed at them per se but more at how there is a trend of this happening on a consistent basis. Will add to this that in the city match play which was flighted, my opponent told me he didn't post scores so he could moved down to the flight we competed in. He literally said he was tired of sandbagging...which was ironic.

You are correct...it takes a large set to do something but that's the responsibility of the committee. In leadership positions you have to make some tough moves and it's time, otherwise more people will sandbag and less people will participate.

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409408919' post='10035873']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1409408717' post='10035857']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging

I did hear about the callaway handicap system. I don't know if there are competitive tournaments using that format.
[/quote]

Your irons are not going to simply throw you 10 strokes below your handicap. Just doesn't work that way.
[/quote]
I beg to differ but that's my personal view. As I've witness it first hand.
[/quote]

I would say your first hand witness would be the exception not the rule.

If you took 100 18 handicappers that play blades and then hand them a GI set of irons I would say less than 10 of them magically shoot net 60's. This is ASSUMING they have legitimate 18 handicaps....

[Ampire2121]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1409409551' post='10035913']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409408919' post='10035873']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1409408717' post='10035857']
[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1409406274' post='10035729']
I'm curious can you be considered a sandbagger if you play let's say blades for the majority (knowing you really shouldn't play them but you do it because of your ego/ etc.) of your tournament than decide to get GI irons next time out and post a score way below your handicap?

Vice Versa as well

FYI I hate sandbaggers and I feel your pain but like other has suggested there are no answers for now how to end sandbagging

I did hear about the callaway handicap system. I don't know if there are competitive tournaments using that format.
[/quote]

Your irons are not going to simply throw you 10 strokes below your handicap. Just doesn't work that way.
[/quote]
I beg to differ but that's my personal view. As I've witness it first hand.
[/quote]

I would say your first hand witness would be the exception not the rule.

If you took 100 18 handicappers that play blades and then hand them a GI set of irons I would say less than 10 of them magically shoot net 60's. This is ASSUMING they have legitimate 18 handicaps....
[/quote]
Yeah I would have to agree. One of my best friends dad who is in his early stages of parkinson was playing really old blades maybe in the 60s and a putter that he told me that was used by his father before WWI!

I tried to convince him to upgrade for the longest time and he finally did. The times I played with him he shot in the 110s than the day I played with with his new GI irons he shot 88!

Now I know this is an extreme case lol

[Mr22putt]

[quote name='dan360' timestamp='1409374481' post='10034911']
I call them out publicly at the tournament. In front of as many people as I can.
[/quote]
I like this solution best.
There's usually a dinner after tournaments....the microphone works best to outcast all the sandbaggers. [size=4] [/size]

[sharkiesj]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I always get hell for it but its just how I feel.

There's more honor to finish last in gross than it is to win a net flight.

The most despised people at country clubs all over America are the net flight winners. Unbeknownst to them of course.... They walk around thinking people really look up to them for their "talent".

[PJ72]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1409371185' post='10034741']
One year ago I played in the Naperville city senior championship with approximately 150 players. It was my first true competitive event in 30+ years. The person who won the net was a 14 handicap who had posted 85 as his lowest round in a year. In the 2 day event he shot -24 net with [size=5][b]gross[/b][/size] rounds of 75-73.

This past Wednesday and Thursday was the 2014 city senior championship. Here are the last 2 years of scores posted by the person who won. This is directly cut and pasted from the CDGA (Chicago District Golf Association). Please note that the [b]only two rounds he shot in the 80's [/b]were in tournaments.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
6/14 98 T 72.2 131 22.3
6/14 97 H 69.8 126 24.4
6/14 99 H 71.1 129 24.4
6/14 101 T 72.1 138 23.7
6/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6
6/14 105 T 71.6 137 27.5
6/14 96 H 71.1 129 21.8
6/14 100 H 71.1 129 25.3
5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7
5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7
5/14 95 H 71.1 129 20.9
5/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6
8/13 87 T 68.6 120 17.3
8/13 84 T 68.3 122 14.5
6/13 91 H 68.3 122 21
6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1
6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9
6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1
6/13 96 H 71.1 129 21.8
6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9

This is August...and he hasn't posted a score since June. Seriously. You already know where this is going...the guy who posted 2 rounds in the 80's in 2 years shot gross 80-81 with a net score of -17. For entertainment purposes, the guy who won last year who is now a 12, shot a horrifically bad -13. Oh that sucks...how embarrassing.

When or how does this madness stop? I talked to the committee and presented facts...including the fact that this year's field was almost 50% less than last year because of the sandbagging. To say it's fallen upon non-caring ears would be an understatement. I threw out some great suggestions from our site including using tournament rounds only, using a percentage of handicap, etc.

Any suggestions from people who play in these kinds of events and how it's dealt with?
[/quote]

It seems like the system in US is allowing people to manipulate their handicaps. People are abusing the system.

In the UK we have very little of this and it is pretty difficult to protect your handicap. If people do this in a competition then the playing partners would weed these cheats out. They would be ostracised from the club.

Forcing players to put cards in for casual rounds is a good idea in principle but it leaves the system open to abuse. The UK system does allow for casual stroke play rounds to count but hardly anyone knows about it, and even less do it. The ones that do put casual round cards in only do it to REDUCE their handicaps not protect them.

The main issue we have over in the UK is when you get a new player or a new member with a starting handicap which is way too high for his playing ability. Another issue is getting stuck on a hcp that is too low. Having a bad run of form means you are stuck on a low hcp for many months .

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1409409475' post='10035907']
I played in a tournament last year that had a gross and net division. Winning score on net was ridiculous....an 18 handicapper shot 76 gross.
[/quote]

Why ridiculous?

When my handicap was 27 (21 years ago) I once played 10 over par and even hit one ball OB. That was my best gross score for next 5 years. It just happened.

Then I once played in a competition in the same group with the net winner. He scored 14 under his handicap and I know he was as astonished as the rest of us. It just happened.

Single rounds can be played surprisingly well but playing two consecutive rounds way below your expected score is suspicios.

[fishstix94]

I feel your pain. I dropped out of my local CC because I couldn't compete in tournaments because EVERYONE was sand bagging. I mean our club champion was a 6 handicap!!! (Championship is played straight up.) We have a season long match play that I used to play in and twice I lost to an 8handicap who broke 70! 69 and 68.. His lowest round of the year was 77, but he magically shot in the 60s twice against me!!!

Like I said I feel your pain.

[Colin L]

PJ72 is right that the CONGU handicapping system in the UK and Ireland is less prone to the sort of manipulation being talked about in the USA. There are two factors, however, which might make it unworkable in the USA. Firstly, CONGU authorised handicaps are restricted to members of affiliated clubs which means that the clubs control and monitor members' handicaps. If you enter any open competition that requires a CONGU handicap as a condition of entry (which would be the norm for any club hosting one), you know that every other competitor's handicap has been acquired and adjusted through competition rounds administered by his/her club in accordance with CONGU regulations. It's not foolproof (and not all clubs will be as particular in running the handicapping system as mine and most others are) but every club should be watching out for any member trying to "build" an inflated handicap. Now that is all very well and good where the majority of golf is played in member clubs, but I understand that most of the golf played in the USA is on public courses by players who do not necessarily belong to a club. It seems you just don't have the structure to sustain such a closely monitored system.

The second factor is the connected one of peer scrutiny. As PJ says, other members will be alert to instances of handicap building and have a direct line to raise concerns with the Committee (which should be monitoring anyway). Again that only works because of the club set up.

NB "Direct line" to the Committee really means cornering the Handicap Convener in the bar and having a go at him.