How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[Jp k]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

[EKELLY]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

[Jp k]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

Wouldn't you love to see a Hogan with the equipment he feels comfortable with and no knowledge of smash factor and spin rates play against today's pros who get a new shaft that morning based on today's wind conditions and wedges based on that course's turf....it would answer a lot of questions about who is a better golfer and what is really important.

[Benkross]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

Wouldn't you love to see a Hogan with the equipment he feels comfortable with and no knowledge of smash factor and spin rates play against today's pros who get a new shaft that morning based on today's wind conditions and wedges based on that course's turf....it would answer a lot of questions about who is a better golfer and what is really important.

We do see one. His name is Bubba. He's a great player, but what separates Bubba from Spieth, Day and McIlroy is preparation and data. Putting the romance of Hogan aside, I think he'd probably get destroyed by today's PGA pros. The only golfers from past eras who could compete today are probably Greg Norman, Jack, Seve and Tom Watson. While putting is still incredibly important, golfers today are athletes and players like Dufner will find it harder and harder to compete long term, Patrick Reed being a lone exception.

[Rookie1422]

Amazing video Tom, I think we're gonna see a big trend in glued hosels coming back on the market

[EKELLY]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

Wouldn't you love to see a Hogan with the equipment he feels comfortable with and no knowledge of smash factor and spin rates play against today's pros who get a new shaft that morning based on today's wind conditions and wedges based on that course's turf....it would answer a lot of questions about who is a better golfer and what is really important.

We do see one. His name is Bubba. He's a great player, but what separates Bubba from Spieth, Day and McIlroy is preparation and data. Putting the romance of Hogan aside, I think he'd probably get destroyed by today's PGA pros. The only golfers from past eras who could compete today are probably Greg Norman, Jack, Seve and Tom Watson. While putting is still incredibly important, golfers today are athletes and players like Dufner will find it harder and harder to compete long term, Patrick Reed being a lone exception.

I'd like to see the guns of today play with the equipment they had in the 60's and 70's, especially the ball. Much different forging materials, and persimmon.

[Benkross]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

Wouldn't you love to see a Hogan with the equipment he feels comfortable with and no knowledge of smash factor and spin rates play against today's pros who get a new shaft that morning based on today's wind conditions and wedges based on that course's turf....it would answer a lot of questions about who is a better golfer and what is really important.

We do see one. His name is Bubba. He's a great player, but what separates Bubba from Spieth, Day and McIlroy is preparation and data. Putting the romance of Hogan aside, I think he'd probably get destroyed by today's PGA pros. The only golfers from past eras who could compete today are probably Greg Norman, Jack, Seve and Tom Watson. While putting is still incredibly important, golfers today are athletes and players like Dufner will find it harder and harder to compete long term, Patrick Reed being a lone exception.

I'd like to see the guns of today play with the equipment they had in the 60's and 70's, especially the ball. Much different forging materials, and persimmon.

Golf Digest had a video of the pros hitting persimmons and hickories, but they were still hitting modern balls. The ball is the biggest thing that differentiates yesteryear and today. As recently as 20 years ago, the choice was distance and durability or spin or touch. You played surlyn covered balls that didn't shear or you played balatas and urethane balls that were short. Also the consistency of shape is massively different today which is most important sinking putts. I think you can compare eras, bc it's still the field competed against the courses, which are longer, harder and faster than ever before. I've been saying that if the PGA wants to negate long hitters, it should shorten courses again. Fred Funk hit 70% of fairways, but on the avg par 4 in today's tour course, he'd need a 3 hybrid or 4i, while the longer hitters are hitting 8 and 9 irons. Make the average par 4 420 and suddenly it's 7 iron against a Wedge or SW.

[Ri_Redneck]

i can't believe this thread is still going. I think we need to summarize what we learned, no? please correct me

 

- mfgs should be more clear on their adjustments in relation to soled or square setup, which current marketing material does not clarify

- loft #s are only accurate with a square face at setup so the open/closed face angle and lie angle changes are negated

- soled setup will change open/closed face angle and lie angle but not loft

- probability-wise, we are better off getting the correct fixed loft head and adjusting the face angle and lie then trying to get the correct face angle and lie and adjusting the loft (maybe time for a different shaft instead)

- OEMs are not the devil, just trying to accommodate the 99% who don't come here without data overload

- Tom is not the devil for trying to sell a few clubs while educating the 99% who just want to get the right equipment. A better educated consumer is a stickier customer.

 

Please feel free to add/subtract/correct

I think I'd have to watch that 3-4 times to get the whole context of the key message. I understand his theory completely, but I'm more impressed with the fact that Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, played their prime years without the use of loft/lie machine??......Or did I get that wrong?....LOL

 

Yeah, you definitely got it wrong. Bobby Jones knew the loft and lie of ALL of his clubs. What makes you think Hogan, Palmer and Nicklaus didn't??? In their prime, they had their equipment checked regularly with the best loft & lie equipment available.

 

What I find impressive is that they achieved the distance they did WITHOUT all the tech we rely on today!!

 

BT

[goodvibes]

Sounds like Cobra got it right with their smart sole. I'm not arguing here but holding a driver at a face angle I like is a non issue for me and the lie angle is also not an issue, for me, on a club I don't contact turf with during a swing. At least not a degree or so. I had my 1st adjustable driver last year (Cobra bio cell+) and the adjustments did exactly what they were supposed to 10'5 launched a bit higher and spun a bit more than 9.5 and felt no different in the swing or flight bias. By the same token I don't get the fade or hook bias settings since that's simply loft vs head rotation if you discount turf interaction. I suspect for many heads and people, turf interaction or head at rest is more significant than it is for me.

 

I think it's a much bigger issue on fairway woods where you're affecting the lie or 'bounce' turk interaction every time you change a setting. The only negative I see with adjustable drivers is the extra weight required in the least useful location for it. Of course, it's also where we put the lead to get swing weight for decades so....

[Stuart_G]

Sounds like Cobra got it right with their smart sole. I'm not arguing here but holding a driver at a face angle I like is a non issue for me and the lie angle is also not an issue, for me, on a club I don't contact turf with during a swing. At least not a degree or so.

 

If it worked for you, that's great, but not everyone will find it as useful and anyone considering the Cobra's should verify whether it does or not first. Certainly could be helpful for some but It didn't help me at all and I know a few others that had the same issue so not so sure I'd consider it a universal fix.

[Sanders74]

I find most things to be Market strategy I play all My woods in the stock setting. Its My swing that needs adjust-ability

[goodvibes]

Sounds like Cobra got it right with their smart sole. I'm not arguing here but holding a driver at a face angle I like is a non issue for me and the lie angle is also not an issue, for me, on a club I don't contact turf with during a swing. At least not a degree or so.

 

If it worked for you, that's great, but not everyone will find it as useful and anyone considering the Cobra's should verify whether it does or not first. Certainly could be helpful for some but It didn't help me at all and I know a few others that had the same issue so not so sure I'd consider it a universal fix.

I don't believe I neglected saying the same in my post outside of your chosen quoted portion, "I suspect for many heads and people, turf interaction or head at rest is more significant than it is for me."

[Stuart_G]

My response was really just directed toward the comment about the smart pad and set-up. It had nothing to do with turf interaction which is a completely different aspect.

[goodvibes]

Head at rest?

[Stuart_G]

Head at rest?

 

Are you asking what that means? If so, it's also referred to as it's "naturally soled position". Set-up at address with the head on the ground and relax the hands to let the club rotate and sit however it wants.

 

If not, then sorry, I don't understand the question.

[EKELLY]

The adjustable head doesn't work........It creates more chaos for men that have never actually hit the sweet spot. It only makes it worse. Take a 25 and close the face to compensate for his out to in slice, and BAM.....Hard Hook!........Oh yeah, that worked well!....Get real people!!........LOL

[Ri_Redneck]

I would expect more objectivity than that from a 1 cap.

 

BT

[JCAG]

I may have said earlier but there is no doubt that adjusting adjustable heads does cause "something" to happen be it good, bad, or indifferent and it will vary form golfer to golfer.

 

Yes the initial specs have to be there from the get go and one does have to take the time to experiment as in play a few rounds with each setting before settling on which is best for them.

 

I have not changed my adjustable driver in over a year as I know what the overall best setting is for me but this came from trial and error settings. Notice my use of the word overall. There are two other settings that can aid me if all is right as in right with me and the conditions yet there is one best overall setting and I stick with it. I still refuse to "epoxy" it in place as maybe there will be some changes later on and I do not want to lose the ability of trying things different.

[goodvibes]

Head at rest?

 

Are you asking what that means? If so, it's also referred to as it's "naturally soled position". Set-up at address with the head on the ground and relax the hands to let the club rotate and sit however it wants.

 

If not, then sorry, I don't understand the question.

No, I wasn't asking what it meant. I was asking if you noticed it in the quote you used that contained the phrase. The one that you said didn't include head at address. It's apparent that you agree it means the same. I guess you just missed it as you still weren't aware. No worries.

[Benkross]

I find most things to be Market strategy I play all My woods in the stock setting. Its My swing that needs adjust-ability

I get your point but consider this. If you always do the same thing and your clubs are too upright or too flat, wouldn't it make sense to adjust? Good swings don't have to follow the same swing plane as anyone else to be good. Case in point are Kuchar and Furyk who don't have classically beautiful swings, but they have their clubs fit to be on plane and square at impact with the moves they have. Why are woods any different. Just like anything else, there is no blanket fix. I adjust both my swing and the club not to get the best performance, but to minimize my worst misses.

[TheInfidel]

Anyone else watch this video and then really want to be fitted by Tom for a Driver?

 

If I have to hold a funeral for my 910 I think I'll be depressed.

[98rzvr6]

Awesome video

[AFcelica]

You all do realize that that whole video just explains that adjustable drivers can't give you an exact specifications where as he can.... I mean how many of you actually know you need a 9.3* loft with a 58* lie and .658486* open, and why would you? Wouldn't that also change every time you bought a new driver unless it had the exact same cg, moi, etc etc.... Adjust the driver to get the desired ball flight it's pretty simple

[Hammer_Hands]

This is perfect. Thanks so much!

[vonasemj]

This helps confirm exactly how I thought they worked. I like the ability to quickly change shafts, but being someone that always soles my club, I always like the club to look square when soled. For that reason I like to play clubs the look right in the neutral setting. I can't say I've really ever had ill effects of adjusting a hosel to hit a ball off a tee, but I don't like it for hitting a club off the deck.

[Ewmcdade]

Amazing video Tom, I think we're gonna see a big trend in glued hosels coming back on the market

 

Whatever you do, don't ever make a thread about it!

[Sec]

I found this video to be very informative! Thank you!

[rodders]

Wonderful info. Thanks

[chickenpotpie]

Something I've been chewing on lately is what these hosel adaptors do to my actual swing and how I return the face back at impact. I sole the driver and point the face straight down my target line, but I think these adaptors change the face path on my swing through. I don't have hard face angle data, but I've seen the flights to prove it.

 

Take Ping's simple adaptor....

 

In the neutral position, the adaptor puts the shaft more or less in line with the face. My actual ball flight (again, with the face starting out pointing down the target line) is straight with a slight cut. I do have a slight out to in swing, maybe 1 degree.

 

In the -1 degree position, the shaft at address is pointed back towards my belly button a bit. Actual ball flight is a push fade.

 

In the +1 degree position, the shaft at address is pointed more towards my left hip. The actual flight is a baby draw.

 

In all three cases, the actual loft at setup is the same....the shaft just rotated a bit to accommodate the face angle, and there's a slight change to the lie angle.

 

What I need to find out is what the dynamic loft at impact is for these, as well as the relative path and face angles at impact.

[Grim]

Sill enjoying my BStone J40 glued driver.

 

This video made so much sense to me cause as I would fool around with the settings on my adjustable driver I just didn't really see a change in anything other than how the head seemed to sit.

 

Still need to watch this video again to really grasp everything but I've always been a fan of glued hosels because I feel the whole adjustable thing is more a gimmick than anything and I think even Tom has mentioned that before in several posts here.