How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[3woodvt]

[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1410973470' post='10133105']
[media=]http://youtu.be/aj5KOk2oXU0[/media]
[/quote]

I have to say, A good friend just purchased a complete set of Wishon clubs fro 2 Drivers, set of irons, and 3 wedges and they are impeccable. I actually hit his 8X SVS driver and it is every bit as long as my current driver. The wedges are sublime as well. I will be buying my next set of clubs from Wishon Golf.

After watching this video I actually learned I'm actually playing a SLDR at 10.5 degree loft but to hit it like I want I'm probably opening the face a good 2 or 3 degrees. I think after watching this video I'm probably playing the loft after adjusting the face angle around 12 or 13.

When I did the traditional hosel adjustment and had it at 11.5 or 12 the face was so closed I hit it a lot left. By manipulating the face angle at 10.5 I do carry about 260-270 when hit in the center.

Thanks for the great video and I will be visiting your site and fitters in the future as I had always soled the club for 30+ years and was an above avg driver in accuracy and distance.

Great Clubs all they way around but more importantly the Club should be built and never touched after fitting. Great Video.

[Titlemade]

Tom,
I am going to make a statement that may make things a little easier to understand. Golfer takes his stance with a driver and soles his club. His tee is nailed in the ground, and his feet and hands are locked into a position that will not allow for changes to hand, feet, or ball position. Now adjust the loft up on a driver and you will notice that the club WILL NOT be able to be soled flat on the ground. It MUST lean back to the trailing edge to fit in the bound hands of the golfer at that ball position.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

[quote name='Titlemade' timestamp='1426802074' post='11175637']
Tom,
I am going to make a statement that may make things a little easier to understand. Golfer takes his stance with a driver and soles his club. His tee is nailed in the ground, and his feet and hands are locked into a position that will not allow for changes to hand, feet, or ball position. Now adjust the loft up on a driver and you will notice that the club WILL NOT be able to be soled flat on the ground. It MUST lean back to the trailing edge to fit in the bound hands of the golfer at that ball position.
[/quote]

I wouldn't have gone there. You're going to get a very long explanation about how you're wrong...

[Stuart_G]

It's not that it's wrong, it's just that it has no point to it. When the loft is changed through a hossel adjustment the face angle does change, that's all that statement is saying. If a player tries to sole AND square a club with the open or closed face angle, it wont sit level by definition. That's not a contradiction to anything Tom has said. The point being missed is that face orientation at contact is what is really important, not face orientation at set-up. Squaring the face at set-up does not, by any means, ensure a square face at contact. Even at impact, it's not commonly desirable to have the face square to the original target line. Face orientation relative to the path (not target line) is what dictates ball flight.

[JoeyB]

Gentleman, interesting conversation on adjustable drivers. I am anxious to hear Mr. Wishon's response to titlemade's ideas.

Cheers, Joe

[HangOnHook]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1410988298' post='10135027']
[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1410985161' post='10134441']
So let me know if I got this straight.

[u]Adjustable driver:[/u]
Soled to a 0* square position every time = adjustment changes the loft up or down

Soled as it lays, any adjustment = no effect on loft but changes face angle
[/quote]

Absolutely correct, but in both cases the lie angle does also change with the change in the hosel device for any of the adj hosel drivers.
[/quote]

So if all I want is an open face I'm good?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='HangOnHook' timestamp='1427760169' post='11248755']
[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1410988298' post='10135027']
[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1410985161' post='10134441']
So let me know if I got this straight.

[u]Adjustable driver:[/u]
Soled to a 0* square position every time = adjustment changes the loft up or down

Soled as it lays, any adjustment = no effect on loft but changes face angle
[/quote]

Absolutely correct, but in both cases the lie angle does also change with the change in the hosel device for any of the adj hosel drivers.
[/quote]

So if all I want is an open face I'm good?
[/quote]

Yes, as long as the loft that comes with that open face in the soled position is right for your swing speed + angle of attack to get you into the best launch angle.

[Swashbuckler]

Very interesting and informative. I like his explanation and appreciate the science behind it. Makes sense.

Basically don't sole your adjusted hosel driver, hover it with a square face before taking your shot.

[dwboston]

I enjoy reading Tom's stuff, but he lost me forever with the post he made linked here and quoted below in a discussion about adjustable hosels: http://www.golfwrx.c...90#entry6813861

 

Let me copy and paste unedited an email I got this week. . . . .

 

From: Dan Harms

Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 1:00 PM

To: Tom Wishon

Subject: Re: ADj Drivers

 

The adj models used on tour have no adjustment. The collar looks similar but only for show. The public only looks at the heads. Use these comments anyway you choose. I'm betting I see more tour heads than most of your club makers so I know this is a fact.

 

Dan Harms

Tour Professional

 

Which is absolute BS. The bottom line is, his numbers may be technically correct, under the conditions of his measurements, but those measurements don't necessarily correspond to how the clubs are actually used. He clearly has an ax to grind against the OEM's in favor of promoting his stuff, and it colors his posting here.

 

Titleist had/has a version of the SureFit settings guide for the 910 series clubs that had an additional column to the right showing the face angle change for each setting. So they are not hiding anything about how their adjustable drivers work. Here's an example from this site.

 

[shanerbanner10]

interesting video. has me re thinking some things.

[Kingcat990]

Great video. I just have one thing to say though; Tom has a great head of hair.

[Leedle Leedle Leedle Lee]

What's kind of disappointing is that Tom isn't really correct on the topic of adjustable hosel drivers, and I can easily explain why from my experience with them.

Adjustable hosel drivers are bored like any other driver, except the attachment plug that fits in the bore isn't parallel to the shaft that it holds. If the attachment plug WAS parallel, it wouldn't matter what way you inserted the shaft into the club, the position of it in 3D space would be exactly the same (barring engineering tolerances, but I digress).

The minute angle of the shaft acceptance adapter is what actually changes the "loft" and "face angle". Traditionally clubs are measured and lofted from the club-soled position, with the new shaft adapters, they are measured from the shaft neutral position (shaft in the same position in 3d space). What Tom is probably upset about is that manufacturers are doing probably the more "right" way of measuring clubs by measuring them from the player's perspective of holding the club, and not necessarily when the club has been soled perspective.

To me, that makes more sense from a fitting point of view, because if you swing consistently, the golf shaft is going to be roughly in the same place during the swing (assuming a perfectly repeatable swing), all that's changed with the adjustable hosel is that the head when coming into the striking zone is now rotated 3D wise into a new position.

Any clubfitter worth their salt could easily figure this out, perhaps this is the new paradigm club fitters need with regards to fitting. Static lie, loft, and face angle are standards from the "Club is in THIS position on the ground" fit, not the "Club is in THE HANDS of the player" position. That has always been, and will always be the demon of club fitting, combined with the fact that not every golfer sets up the same exact way every single time. Which kind of defeats the purpose of super precision club fitting anyways: Static measurements are no match for dynamic players, and should be adjusted accordingly.

If you guys need me to draw a picture to explain the phenomena, I am more than willing to.

In my opinion, what you should do with an adjustable hosel club is the following: Rotate the shaft to where the club is in the most preferred setup look when you adress the ball (considering not everyone places their hands in the same spot when setting up for a tee shot), and then get the shaft regripped with the grip of your choice that's the most comfortable to you.

[TKS]

Unbelievable.

[Leedle Leedle Leedle Lee]

Quick and dirty picture explaining the phenomena.

Short and easy: Does it work? If you swing consistently and your hands are in the same position in the downswing, the driver head is now attached with a slightly different angle to the shaft, thus changing its pitch, yaw, and roll.

Is it worth getting? If you're not a consistent swinger, probably not. HOWEVER, it's very nice to have a club that you can change golf shafts quickly with, plus minute changes in clubhead attachment angles can give you a club that, when soled, is comfortable for you to address.

Either way it doesn't matter, I'm not sure why people get upset about adjustable drivers when they can't even consistently swing at the golf ball. What the club fitting and equipment "Gurus" seem to always be missing is that their customers/pupils would benefit more from an understanding of how to swing a darn golf club.

[JimJam]

Really enjoyed reading this. Very informative

[clinkinfo]

[quote name='Leedle Leedle Leedle Lee' timestamp='1429880437' post='11431971']
What's kind of disappointing is that Tom isn't really correct on the topic of adjustable hosel drivers, and I can easily explain why from my experience with them.

Adjustable hosel drivers are bored like any other driver, except the attachment plug that fits in the bore isn't parallel to the shaft that it holds. If the attachment plug WAS parallel, it wouldn't matter what way you inserted the shaft into the club, the position of it in 3D space would be exactly the same (barring engineering tolerances, but I digress).

The minute angle of the shaft acceptance adapter is what actually changes the "loft" and "face angle". Traditionally clubs are measured and lofted from the club-soled position, with the new shaft adapters, they are measured from the shaft neutral position (shaft in the same position in 3d space). What Tom is probably upset about is that manufacturers are doing probably the more "right" way of measuring clubs by measuring them from the player's perspective of holding the club, and not necessarily when the club has been soled perspective.

To me, that makes more sense from a fitting point of view, because if you swing consistently, the golf shaft is going to be roughly in the same place during the swing (assuming a perfectly repeatable swing), all that's changed with the adjustable hosel is that the head when coming into the striking zone is now rotated 3D wise into a new position.

Any clubfitter worth their salt could easily figure this out, perhaps this is the new paradigm club fitters need with regards to fitting. Static lie, loft, and face angle are standards from the "Club is in THIS position on the ground" fit, not the "Club is in THE HANDS of the player" position. That has always been, and will always be the demon of club fitting, combined with the fact that not every golfer sets up the same exact way every single time. Which kind of defeats the purpose of super precision club fitting anyways: Static measurements are no match for dynamic players, and should be adjusted accordingly.

If you guys need me to draw a picture to explain the phenomena, I am more than willing to.

In my opinion, what you should do with an adjustable hosel club is the following: Rotate the shaft to where the club is in the most preferred setup look when you adress the ball (considering not everyone places their hands in the same spot when setting up for a tee shot), and then get the shaft regripped with the grip of your choice that's the most comfortable to you.
[/quote]

I thought it was me, but I was glad to see your post. All this debate about club head static measurements seems silly relative to the dynamic head position at impact which is all relative to the shaft position at impact when you can change the angles of attachment. I don't "sole" my driver, and could care less what any measurement on that attached head itself is. I care what launch conditions that head imparts at the time of impact, which is based upon the heads relative position to the shaft I'm holding when adjustable attachment devices are used.

This seems like a huge discussion about how important it is to accurately measure a relatively unimportant thing. if you were holding the shaft in an identical neutral position and adjusting the adjustable hozels and THEN tell me you see no change in the absolute loft or lie or face, then this would be more interesting. But that's the point, the face IS changing relative to the shaft.

[golfman009]

That man knows his golf clubs! I like having a set of his clubs in his bag because I feel he doesn't just throw clubs on the market with gimmics to sell like most big companies. Only releases something new when it's actually new. Not just a different color.

[NoTalentLefty]

I'm impressed with guys like Tom Wishon. Wish I could understand this. The only things I get out of it. Don't buy the hype on adjustable drivers and me a dumb a$$.

[NoTalentLefty]

It seems to me that back in the nineties, drivers were sold in 1 degree open or closed or square when ordering. Thought I got a Cleveland TA driver 1 degree open. Dreaming?

[greens hit]

Tom, how bloody is your head right now from banging against the wall? I feel your frustration.

[cdodom91]

I thought this would be a good place to ask the question but would putting equal weight in the heal and toe of my Big Bertha Alpha make the driver more forgiving?

[TKS]

[quote name='cdodom91' timestamp='1435258984' post='11834278']
I thought this would be a good place to ask the question but would putting equal weight in the heal and toe of my Big Bertha Alpha make the driver more forgiving?
[/quote]
Equal weight means little. If you are putting more weight, theoretically yes. How much for you to see a change in ball flight? Probably more weight than you want.
Tooele! Yeah.

[sevenputts]

Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.

[Raptor2014]

good video

[Bad9]

[quote name='sevenputts' timestamp='1435726469' post='11867330']
Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.
[/quote]

The adjustable sole plate is the one I never got and that I have come to believe is undoubtedly marketing bunk. Even it's primary(only?) proponent, TM, no longer uses it. Please explain to me how the adjustable sole plate is an advantage.

[Enfynet]

[quote name='Leedle Leedle Leedle Lee' timestamp='1430104893' post='11448693']
Quick and dirty picture explaining the phenomena.

Short and easy: Does it work? If you swing consistently and your hands are in the same position in the downswing, the driver head is now attached with a slightly different angle to the shaft, thus changing its pitch, yaw, and roll.

Is it worth getting? If you're not a consistent swinger, probably not. HOWEVER, it's very nice to have a club that you can change golf shafts quickly with, plus minute changes in clubhead attachment angles can give you a club that, when soled, is comfortable for you to address.

Either way it doesn't matter, I'm not sure why people get upset about adjustable drivers when they can't even consistently swing at the golf ball. What the club fitting and equipment "Gurus" seem to always be missing is that their customers/pupils would benefit more from an understanding of how to swing a darn golf club.
[/quote]
How is this not [u]exactly[/u] what Tom was describing in his video? Semantics? I mean really, all you did was use different words to describe the same thing.

It's not a secret that the hosel is bored at an angle and that changing that angle will change the head-shaft orientation. I'm glad you understand how this works, but it's not rocket science. Get over yourself.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1436460991' post='11917298']
[quote name='sevenputts' timestamp='1435726469' post='11867330']
Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.
[/quote]

The adjustable sole plate is the one I never got and that I have come to believe is undoubtedly marketing bunk. Even it's primary(only?) proponent, TM, no longer uses it. Please explain to me how the adjustable sole plate is an advantage.
[/quote]

It changes the FA, OF THE CLUB, when the club is soled. How is that not evident? If the plate is extended out of it's recessed area, it will close the face when the club is rested on the ground. If the plate is lowered into the recessed area, it will open the face when the club is resting on the ground.

I've come to the conclusion that no matter how clear it is explained, people will continue to not understand, not believe and not care.

BT

[pingfool]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1436460991' post='11917298']
[quote name='sevenputts' timestamp='1435726469' post='11867330']
Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.
[/quote]

The adjustable sole plate is the one I never got and that I have come to believe is undoubtedly marketing bunk. Even it's primary(only?) proponent, TM, no longer uses it. Please explain to me how the adjustable sole plate is an advantage.
[/quote]

if you have put your hands on driver w/ adjustable sole plate (r11s) - and changed the settings (yourself) you would understand the difference at address (when resting on the ground)

advantage? more adjustability - primarily visual
cant say the ball goes further - but if YOU make better contact (for whatever reason) some may consider it an advantage (if only mental/confidence)

[golf_n_ma]

Hey, could someone do me a huge favor. Youtube is a completely blocked domain in our home for some obvious reasons. However, we do use vimeo sparingly. Is it possible to post the original video that started this thread on vimeo.com? Much appreciated if it's possible.

Thanks

[rcain1us]

I honestly still don't for the life of me care how the loft when resting on the ground looks.

I am not in contact with the ground when I hit a ball.

I am trying to deliver the club as close to square as possible.

I originally hit my driver too high and turned it down one degree and now I hit it lower.

It's all individual to you swing not the ground.