How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[Bad9]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1436651641' post='11930406']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1436460991' post='11917298']
[quote name='sevenputts' timestamp='1435726469' post='11867330']
Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.
[/quote]

The adjustable sole plate is the one I never got and that I have come to believe is undoubtedly marketing bunk. Even it's primary(only?) proponent, TM, no longer uses it. Please explain to me how the adjustable sole plate is an advantage.
[/quote]

It changes the FA, OF THE CLUB, when the club is soled. How is that not evident? If the plate is extended out of it's recessed area, it will close the face when the club is rested on the ground. If the plate is lowered into the recessed area, it will open the face when the club is resting on the ground.

I've come to the conclusion that no matter how clear it is explained, people will continue to not understand, not believe and not care.

BT
[/quote]
The ground its resting is not likely flat nor firm enough for it to be accurate. Wouldn't it also change as soon as you lifted the club? The FA of the club in your swing is determined by your hands on the shaft not the sole on the ground. If it was such an "advantage" why has TM abandoned it?

Maybe people don't understand, believe or care about the adjustable sole plate because they realize its marketing bunk and has no effect on how the club actually works

[sevenputts]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1436912464' post='11949462']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1436651641' post='11930406']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1436460991' post='11917298']
[quote name='sevenputts' timestamp='1435726469' post='11867330']
Fixed hosels being bent are the same thing as an adjustable hosel being adjusted. Both " methods " are effectively changing the angle of the shaft. Some adjustable drivers actually have the advantage because you have an adjustable sole plate. I don't know of a fixed hosel driver with an adjustable sole plate.
[/quote]

The adjustable sole plate is the one I never got and that I have come to believe is undoubtedly marketing bunk. Even it's primary(only?) proponent, TM, no longer uses it. Please explain to me how the adjustable sole plate is an advantage.
[/quote]

It changes the FA, OF THE CLUB, when the club is soled. How is that not evident? If the plate is extended out of it's recessed area, it will close the face when the club is rested on the ground. If the plate is lowered into the recessed area, it will open the face when the club is resting on the ground.

I've come to the conclusion that no matter how clear it is explained, people will continue to not understand, not believe and not care.

BT
[/quote]
The ground its resting is not likely flat nor firm enough for it to be accurate. Wouldn't it also change as soon as you lifted the club? The FA of the club in your swing is determined by your hands on the shaft not the sole on the ground. If it was such an "advantage" why has TM abandoned it?

Maybe people don't understand, believe or care about the adjustable sole plate because they realize its marketing bunk and has no effect on how the club actually works
[/quote] It changes the face angle IF you sole the club. I sole the club so do many others so it is a fitting advantage for many.

[ruhly2]

I have never messed with my driver. Might need a range session for that.

[Bad9]

Yup the Adjustable Sole Plate is such a big fitting advantage TM has gone all in on it and the other companies are trying to find ways to copy it. Oh wait...

[sevenputts]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1438103528' post='12035432']
Yup the Adjustable Sole Plate is such a big fitting advantage TM has gone all in on it and the other companies are trying to find ways to copy it. Oh wait...
[/quote] Companies do not make every decision based what is an advantage to a player. They make a decision ultimately what's good for the bottom line. Sales, money, you get the idea..

[joelpeabody]

Great video! That really clears up a lot of confusion. I know that in marketing the club, it is much easier to just say adjust loft rather than explaining what else is happening with the club head, but so little is said that it just gets confusing.

Anyway, I think the Titleist Surefit makes the most sense to me because of the chart, but I have a hard time seeing the changes happen immediately when I am on the range like they say will happen in the brochure.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1438103528' post='12035432']
Yup the Adjustable Sole Plate is such a big fitting advantage TM has gone all in on it and the other companies are trying to find ways to copy it. Oh wait...
[/quote]

Look man, I'm just explaining how it works, not recommending it for everyone. Read some of my other posts and you will see that I don't condone being a slave of the FA simply because we do not play on level ground. However, but many here do recommend setting up that way and playing that way.

So, if you see an explanation that doesn't apply to you, don't whine about it....... just scroll to the next post and FAGGEDABOUTIT!!

Geez.

BT

[MarkAJones]

I guess ultimately if you have an ugly grip, swing and attack path then no amount of adjustability will help you. I started playing in April and was shooting mid 100s, mainly because I was out to in with a weak grip and sliced. A lot.

I watched some videos on YouTube, figured out why I was slicing, changed my swing, my grip and my attack path and now I'm on the verge of breaking 90. The one thing I didn't change was my driver, a fixed head Titleist 909D2.

OK, my head address is closed to the point of being ugly and I hover slightly as resting the club makes it look even worse. But I hit straight and pretty long. Sometimes I even get a pretty little draw. I'm now toying with getting one of these new fangled drivers but will I gain anything? I'll still have to adjust to close the face. OK, I might be able to rest the club on the ground but I can't be much straighter and at 47, I doubt there's much yardage to be gained.

[Bad9]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1440767461' post='12223480']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1438103528' post='12035432']
Yup the Adjustable Sole Plate is such a big fitting advantage TM has gone all in on it and the other companies are trying to find ways to copy it. Oh wait...
[/quote]

Look man, I'm just explaining how it works, not recommending it for everyone. Read some of my other posts and you will see that I don't condone being a slave of the FA simply because we do not play on level ground. However, but many here do recommend setting up that way and playing that way.

So, if you see an explanation that doesn't apply to you, don't whine about it....... just scroll to the next post and FAGGEDABOUTIT!!

Geez.

BT
[/quote]

Geez is right. You respond to my month old post today and tell me to forget about it and move on...

[Ruddy]

Well, that's 18:25 minutes of my life I'm not getting back....

This seems like advertising for TW's adjustable hosel driver. It's much ado about nothing. If my dynamic face angle as I swing into the ball (with the club set neutral) is 2* open, then I adjust the face per the OEM's instructions to 2* closed, then I have effectively closed the face 2*, NO MATTER HOW I SWING. If, for example, I swing even more badly and leave the dynamic face angle open 3*, I'll still have an open 1* face at impact, but I have now reduced my error by 2*. All this baloney about squared, soled club adjustment s having no effect is misleading, because no one soles his driver at impact, hopefull, and because we are concerned about the dynamic face angle as we swing, not the static angles at address.

[Green1414]

Thanks very much for posting this. Great stuff.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1440810560' post='12227480']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1440767461' post='12223480']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1438103528' post='12035432']
Yup the Adjustable Sole Plate is such a big fitting advantage TM has gone all in on it and the other companies are trying to find ways to copy it. Oh wait...
[/quote]

Look man, I'm just explaining how it works, not recommending it for everyone. Read some of my other posts and you will see that I don't condone being a slave of the FA simply because we do not play on level ground. However, but many here do recommend setting up that way and playing that way.

So, if you see an explanation that doesn't apply to you, don't whine about it....... just scroll to the next post and FAGGEDABOUTIT!!

Geez.

BT
[/quote]

Geez is right. You respond to my month old post today and tell me to forget about it and move on...
[/quote]

Yep, took me that long to build up the composure to return to this thread. I get enough frustration with driving in New England. Getting into one of these discussions at the wrong time could push me over the edge!!!

BT

BT

[Peter Kelly]

Just watched the video and enjoyed it, although I do have a niggling doubt.

To me, there is absolutely no question that the limitation of the adjustable hosel is exactly as Mr. Wishon explains.
However, I can't help feeling that bending the hosel is almost identical except that it is infinitely variable (between limits), rather than discreet steps, and the main difference is simply the choice of heads.
Would it not be the same if a manufacturer offered 8.5', 9.0', 9.5', etc. together with the adjustable hosel?

I suspect this is, for the most part, nothing more than marketing to limit production costs. After all, it is easier and cheaper selling one head to everyone than selling four heads to four different groups!

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Peter Kelly' timestamp='1442761032' post='12338948']
However, I can't help feeling that bending the hosel is almost identical except that it is infinitely variable (between limits), rather than discreet steps, and the main difference is simply the choice of heads.
Would it not be the same if a manufacturer offered 8.5', 9.0', 9.5', etc. together with the adjustable hosel?
[/quote]

It's a little more than that. The bendable hossel allows independent adjustment of Face Angle (or if you'd rather call it effective loft) and lie angle - that's an infinite combination of 2 variables. Most adjustable hossels have those two adjustments coupled together so can't adjust them independently. The exceptions I believe are Titliest and new Callaway adapters that allow for limited independent adjustment of lie and face angle (effective loft).

The offering of more head base loft options (whether adjustable or bendable hossel) allows a player to find the correct combination of Face Angle and loft.

[quote name='Peter Kelly' timestamp='1442761032' post='12338948']
I suspect this is, for the most part, nothing more than marketing to limit production costs.
[/quote]

True - although it's more than just "marketing". Prior to the advent of adjustable hossels, the bigger companies might have had separate offerings with different face angles. Typically marketed as having "draw" or "fade" based bias. You don't see those as much as you used to. To my knowledge, the TM R1 was the only offering that released a head with only a single loft and used the adjustable features to try and accommodate all the buyers. And considering they never repeated the concept in any of the following designs, I'd guess it either didn't work out as well as they hoped, or the cost savings in having only a single head design wasn't as significant.

[Peter Kelly]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1442826906' post='12342886']
It's a little more than that. The bendable hossel allows independent adjustment of Face Angle (or if you'd rather call it effective loft) and lie angle - that's an infinite combination of 2 variables. Most adjustable hossels have those two adjustments coupled together so can't adjust them independently. The exceptions I believe are Titliest and new Callaway adapters that allow for limited independent adjustment of lie and face angle (effective loft).

[/quote]

You may well be right for some clubs, but looking at the Srixons I have here I think the only difference is that the adjustable hosel has a type of spline.
Imagine that your fist (palm up) is a head and pointing your index finger is the hosel, then you can move your finger in a rotation that will correspond to a bendable hosel. If you filed off the spline inside an adjustable hosel it will behave in just such a way; the problem with the spline still in place is that you can't see that action.

You could, of course, clamp the head into place and mark the position of the top of the grip for each adjustment. It would then create something akin to a clockface (curiously 12 positions for my Srixon!).
Unless you were to bend the hosel in two places the result would be the same, only not limited to discreet positions.

As Mr. Wishon says in the video, the angle between the sole and the face, disregarding the shaft, has to remain fixed because it is a solid moulding.
To be honest, I think the one major difference that affects this issue, between now and years ago, is that the sole used to be very flat, whereas now they are rounded, allowing for this supposed changing face angle.
Again going back to the video, it relies on the golfer 'grounding the club' exactly the same every single time!

[Stuart_G]

I haven't held a Srixon adjustable driver in hand, but based on the pictures it looks like the typical mechanism that has the coupled lie/face angle adjustments (like TM/Cobra/Cleveland). The rotation of the adapter limits the shaft angle with respect to the head to a conical shaped path. Bendable hossels are not limited to positions only on that cone and can be set anywhere inside (or even outside depending on the limits). So bending is very different from being limited to just the (say 12) specific locations on the cone. See the diagram from this post - it might help.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1081535-how-adjustable-drivers-actually-work-everyone-should-be-required-to-watch-this-to-be-allowed-to-post-on-this-site-thanks-tom-wishon/page__st__240#entry11448693"]http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry11448693[/url]

[Peter Kelly]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1442923934' post='12349100']
I haven't held a Srixon adjustable driver in hand, but based on the pictures it looks like the typical mechanism that has the coupled lie/face angle adjustments (like TM/Cobra/Cleveland). The rotation of the adapter limits the shaft angle with respect to the head to a conical shaped path. Bendable hossels are not limited to positions only on that cone and can be set anywhere inside (or even outside depending on the limits). So bending is very different from being limited to just the (say 12) specific locations on the cone. See the diagram from this post - it might help.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1081535-how-adjustable-drivers-actually-work-everyone-should-be-required-to-watch-this-to-be-allowed-to-post-on-this-site-thanks-tom-wishon/page__st__240#entry11448693"]http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry11448693[/url]
[/quote]

I think we're arguing about two sides of the same coin. However, I wouldn't say that the bending is 'very different'.

Certainly you will have, within the mechanical tolerances, an infinite choice of bends, but you'd have to question if anyone could determine usefully the merits of picking certain positions.
For instance (allowing for Mr. Wishon's objections), if the adjustable could set at 10', 10.5', or 11', you have increments of 0.5'. Now you could, if you wanted to, select 10.7759' by bending one, but is that reasonable?
Apart from being extraordinarily difficult to measure, no one could possibly know the difference.

Ultimately, though, I think we can both agree that the adjustable hosel is pretty much a marketing gimmick and a bendable hosel is a better approach. We're not going to get the rest of the manufacturers to admit that though!

[Stuart_G]

Sorry but you still seem to be missing the point. It's not about the finite vs infinite choices for a 1 dimensional change (which is what you seem to be saying). But rather being limited to a 1D change vs having independent control over two dimensions of the adjustment - that's irrespective of the specific increments available.

No, I don't agree that it's a gimmick at all. The focus of the marketing might not be all that accurate or clear but that doesn't change the effectiveness of the functionality when one properly understands what is really being adjusted. It's just more limited in what can be achieved than the bendable hossel option.

[JCAG]

There is no question that adjustments can make a difference. Regardless of how done can we agree that they can make a difference?

[playa]

Having just got my first adjustable driver (cally big bertha), I don't really have a foot in either camp, but there is one thing I am pretty sure about. If I put a new drver in the bag, it must be a driver which performs better than the one already there, regardless of adjustability. What I guess I'm saying is that new drivers only perform better if they have hotter faces/better shafts/lighter weight/better quality control in manufacturing etc. If a driver doesn't suit your game or is just rubbish, all the adjustability in the world isn't going to make it good. The main reason I got an adjustable driver is cause I wanted an updated driver and basically all new drvers are adjustable. Will I tinker? You betcha. But would I be happy with the same driver in a glued head? Hell yeah. The adjustability is just an added bonus imo, not a deal maker.

[mike_dmt]

I just watched Mr. Wishons video. While informative, it started to seem like a sales pitch for his equipment. It's his video, so, why not?

I play an R1. I bought it second hand as an experiment. It is what it is.

What I mean by that is this:

1) The sole plate is purely a gimmick. All it does is look dumb on the bottom of my club. I don't ground my driver at address, and neither should you if you have an R1. Why would you drag a huge metal button across the ground on your takeaway? On top of that, why do you think no manufacturer, including TM put it on another driver?


2) The sleeve was innovative, and works. Will it make a huge change in your game? Nope. Will it turn your slice into a draw? Nope, sorry. It changes loft. That's it. And that's assuming you can make a consistent enough swing to realize what need.

3) The weights in the clubhead are effective. That, to me, is second only to shaft choice. And, keep in mind, it only takes a few grams to change swing weight either way, making that nice new custom shaft play like crap..

You can make all the adjustments in the world, but it will always come down to making a consistent, quality swing.

[sevenputts]

[quote name='mike_dmt' timestamp='1443594225' post='12388756']
I just watched Mr. Wishons video. While informative, it started to seem like a sales pitch for his equipment. It's his video, so, why not?

I play an R1. I bought it second hand as an experiment. It is what it is.

What I mean by that is this:

1) The sole plate is purely a gimmick. All it does is look dumb on the bottom of my club. I don't ground my driver at address, and neither should you if you have an R1. Why would you drag a huge metal button across the ground on your takeaway? On top of that, why do you think no manufacturer, including TM put it on another driver?


2) The sleeve was innovative, and works. Will it make a huge change in your game? Nope. Will it turn your slice into a draw? Nope, sorry. It changes loft. That's it. And that's assuming you can make a consistent enough swing to realize what need.

3) The weights in the clubhead are effective. That, to me, is second only to shaft choice. And, keep in mind, it only takes a few grams to change swing weight either way, making that nice new custom shaft play like crap..

You can make all the adjustments in the world, but it will always come down to making a consistent, quality swing.
[/quote] Sole plate is face angle, so people that ground the club ( myself ) have an option to fine tune the face angle if they like. I've moved on from the R1 but I learned a lot from that club on exactly how I want my driver to be set up.

[bigcatbarstool]

Long but a good watch. Definitely learned quite a bit, good post

[cspin]

I recall watching the video shortly after it was posted, and it is helpful. To my way of thinking, it is all about where the club head is at impact. If you are fitted properly for your swing, and your swing generally repeats, a good club fitter can get you into a driver (or fairway wood) that allows the club head to be delivered to the ball with the desired loft, lie and face angle. Nothing should be done to manipulate how high/low or back/forward your hands are in the swing. The golfer should just be thinking of putting the same swing they always put on the ball. What the club head looks like at address is only important if that is where it is at impact. Personally, I can get pretty close when putting to return the putter head to where it started, so I try and aim the putter face at the intended target line. I am not sure the same can be said for a driver, as the swing and club is much longer and faster than when putting. Now, I am not saying that aiming a driver is not important. It should be consistent and repeatable, and set you up so that your address aim gets you to the impact position you want. If you are dead solid aligned at address, and can bring the club back to that exact position at impact, that is quite a feat. So, with all the variables of swing path, shaft flexing, hand position, etc. at impact, it would seem that the only consideration should be where the head is at impact. If you know that, along with path, lie, speed and AOA...that is where you can make a difference by adjustments to get the ball flight you want. It would be as if your swing was frozen in space a micro second before impact, and you could then rotate the club head to get it exactly where it needs to be to produce the intended results.

The other option is to get a driver with a dead square FA, and suitable loft, lie angle, shaft length and flex for your swing. Essentially, a driver that you know goes straight with a certain trajectory...when you swing it correctly. You could call this a "baseline" driver. Take that baseline driver and work on your swing until your path, AOA, etc. get to a point where you are delivering the club head square at impact...without any adjustments. Probably not the ideal recommendation, but it would eliminate a lot of confusion. You would likely have to get that driver built to spec since finding a head that is square with the correct loft and lie angle is not an easy task. I guess you could get an adjustable driver and take it to a club fitter and have them dial it in to a "baseline" driver, and then you go work on your swing. Basically, fixing the Indian and not the arrow.

[mike_dmt]

^ What he said.


We can all agree our swing changes from day to day.. Shoot, from hole to hole if we want to be honest.

I can go out the front 9 and hit a decent power fade. Make the turn and think I'm making the same swing, and watch the next 3 drives be a dead pull...

We cant blame the tool, just the craftsman.


The

[Brad Dormy]

How do the OEM's measure their loft, lies and face angles on their adjustable hosel drivers? I presume they don't use a green machine or similar to measure loft/lie/fa like in the video? ????

How is Tom's method of measuring( industry standard method) loft/lie/fa different from how, for example, TM or Nike measure their adjustable hosel drivers in order to achieve the specifications that they present for their drivers/fw/hybrids?

For example: Titleist D1 setting - Titleist loft 9,75 measured loft 14,5 - Titleist face angle 1,5 deg open measured face angle 7 deg open. (this example I have used from Tom Wishon's e-tech report, not my own measuring)

[Sky High Handicap]

OK. Now it all makes sense. Now I know why I don't like Adjustable Hosels.

[rybo]

[quote name='Brad Dormy' timestamp='1447432494' post='12594472']
How do the OEM's measure their loft, lies and face angles on their adjustable hosel drivers? [b]I presume they don't use a green machine or similar to measure loft/lie/fa like in the video? ????[/b]

[b]How is Tom's method of measuring( industry standard method) loft/lie/fa different[/b] from how, for example, TM or Nike measure their adjustable hosel drivers in order to achieve the specifications that they present for their drivers/fw/hybrids?

For example: Titleist D1 setting - Titleist loft 9,75 measured loft 14,5 - Titleist face angle 1,5 deg open measured face angle 7 deg open. (this example I have used from Tom Wishon's e-tech report, not my own measuring)
[/quote]

Nike uses Green Machines exclusively both at the OVEN and on the tour van.

[attachment=3075914:Nike 'OVEN'.jpg]
[attachment=3075916:Nike Tour Van.jpg]

The only difference is NIKE knows the exact datum structure as it relates to the loft and shaft angles, and the datum locations on the sole of the club to base any measurements from, everyone else is guessing at these locations. This can have a huge impact on the as measured face angle results, hence the extremely artificial 7* open FA on the Titleist example.

[Brad Dormy]

Thanks for your reply rybo. The machine on the right hand side of the picture below is used for measuring loft and lie, the club is however held at a 90 degree angle to the ground therefore eliminating any adjustment for face angle. Anyone know if this type of machine is commonly used for measuring loft? Seems a bit wrong, in my eyes, to measure a golf club at 90 degress when we play golf at 70-60 degrees.

 

[billiam0716]

I agree this video does show the truth behind this adjustable trend....I have been building golf equipment for years....and spining + adjustable functions on your longer clubs, esp graphite, are not great friends....I mean some shafts from manufacturing play in several positions along the entire 360 degrees of a golf shaft provide variable flex options...lol...

 

This is not a good thing..at 90 degrees the shaft is 250 cpms...and at 70 degrees the shaft is an X flex.....I mean unless your a touring professional, in which your playing high quality shafts that possess multiple spines then the adjustable function is not really helping...and in fact you will typically adjust the off of the shelf driver until you find the spine anyways....lol