How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[JL529]

All bow to Honorable Dr. Tom Wishhhhh. So good, so good...

[1957Strat]

Great video.

[erick.andress]

Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!

[Farrow]

[quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.

[Albatross85]

[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420264766' post='10678033'][quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.[/quote]so explaining to everyone how adjustable drivers work when soled or when hovering is not beneficial? Take your crybaby nonsense elsewhere. Tom has given so much time over the years answering questions on this forum for nothing. Be grateful we have access to people with that much knowledge.

[TitleistKid]

This reminds me of the -Camber, Toe, Caster- talk in racing school...

Adjust 1 and the other 2 will change.

Or was that physics with the for every action there is a re...

[JCAG]

[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1420304408' post='10679291']
[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420264766' post='10678033'][quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.[/quote]so explaining to everyone how adjustable drivers work when soled or when hovering is not beneficial? Take your crybaby nonsense elsewhere. Tom has given so much time over the years answering questions on this forum for nothing. Be grateful we have access to people with that much knowledge.
[/quote]

Well said.

[Farrow]

[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1420304408' post='10679291']
[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420264766' post='10678033'][quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.[/quote]so explaining to everyone how adjustable drivers work when soled or when hovering is not beneficial? Take your crybaby nonsense elsewhere. Tom has given so much time over the years answering questions on this forum for nothing. Be grateful we have access to people with that much knowledge.
[/quote]

I'm simply pointing out that this guy isn't the say all end all of golf knowledge. He has more experience than most, but it's disturbing to see people fawning over him like is often done on this site. My post is basically there to remind people Tom has his own ponies in the race and this video was produced to accompany those products. This isn't an unbiased, "for the good of all golfers" educational video. His information can be useful but it shouldn't be touted as gospel as seem people seem to think.

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420511357' post='10692559']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1420304408' post='10679291']
[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420264766' post='10678033'][quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.[/quote]so explaining to everyone how adjustable drivers work when soled or when hovering is not beneficial? Take your crybaby nonsense elsewhere. Tom has given so much time over the years answering questions on this forum for nothing. Be grateful we have access to people with that much knowledge.
[/quote]

I'm simply pointing out that this guy isn't the say all end all of golf knowledge. He has more experience than most, but it's disturbing to see people fawning over him like is often done on this site. My post is basically there to remind people Tom has his own ponies in the race and this video was produced to accompany those products. This isn't an unbiased, "for the good of all golfers" educational video. His information can be useful but it shouldn't be touted as gospel as seem people seem to think.
[/quote]

You're implying that the info is biased. I agree with you on the premise that Tom has interest in promoting non-adjustable clubs. The thing is, his post is 100% fact.

I don't like trying to poke holes in people as a basis for an argument. Disprove some facts and then you have something.

[Stuart_G]

You're being nice, It wasn't just an implication - it was a blatant accusation without any factual basis or even a accurate understand of the message.

Tom is not promoting non-adjustable clubs. If you actually pay attention to the video (and his other posts), his problem is not with the mechanism or effectiveness of the adjustabilty but rather how the major OEM's have changed how they label the specs (loft) of the club and how those specs change when the adjustments are made.

[cxx]

Oh I don't know. Even if the facts are correct they may be framed in such a way to promote his point of view. If you remember the report on adjustable drivers, it showed absurd numbers for most of the big OEM's adjustable drivers. It seemed a bit disingenuous.

Don't get me wrong, I like Tom's contributions to WRX. On the other hand, it would be silly not to recognize that his contributions to this site, his own site and others, like youtube are in fact a marketing activity. That is how it's done with manufacturers whose marketing is based on word of mouth and a network of fitters. You don't see them sponsoring tour pros or tournaments or advertising in magazines or on TV like the large OEMs.

You see this participation marketing in most other interest areas as well. In a lot of online communities, anyone who is affiliated with a business has to disclose it in their signature. Everyone knows Tom's affiliation here.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1420552707' post='10694217']
Oh I don't know. Even if the facts are correct they may be framed in such a way to promote his point of view.
[/quote]

I actually don't disagree - IF you look at "his point of view" as being how the club specs should be defined and "properly" used in the fitting process. However, promoting his "point of view" or his approach to the fitting process, is not really the same as promoting his products. At best (or at worst - depending on your point of view), it's an affirmation that his products do conform to the way the specs "should" be measured and used in the context of the "proper" fitting process. I'm using the quotes only to avoid an argument/discussion on what a proper fitting process is or should be.

[TitleistKid]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1420553639' post='10694271']
I actually don't disagree - IF you look at "his point of view" as being how the club specs should be defined and "properly" used in the fitting process. However, promoting his "point of view" or his approach to the fitting process, is not really the same as promoting his products. At best (or at worst - depending on your point of view), it's an affirmation that his products do conform to the way the specs "should" be measured and used in the context of the "proper" fitting process. I'm using the quotes only to avoid an argument/discussion on what a proper fitting process is or should be.
[/quote]

I disagree here, when "his point of view" goes directly in to the R&D and design of his product it's all one in the same.

Look I think the video was great, he was very thorough and explained the technology very well, but I promise you it was beneficial to his product.

If he wasn't promoting his products why didn't he use a Ping or other OEM to explain the design flaws? I couldn't help but notice the Wishon signage and club racks.

[Stuart_G]

Could it have been beneficial to his products? Certainly. Anything that provides visibility could be considered beneficial. But that's very different from making the accusation that the video was made for the purpose of promoting his products. Cause and effect does not prove motive in any way.

I certainly don't expect you to believe me or take my word for it (and that's fine), but based on the understanding of Tom's character that I have built up over the years reading his posts and articles and how he interacts with individuals here, it is my own personal judgment that his passion for helping others understand the equipment in general and its importance and the process of fitting is greater than any desire to promote his own products over others. He actually goes out of his way to not talk about or bring up his specific products when answering general questions helping folks out and brings up his products only when directly asked about them.

However, exactly why he shared the results is hardly relevant to the validity of the technical information provided or it's accuracy - and that was the real nature of the original topic.

[cxx]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1420639199' post='10700569']
Could it have been beneficial to his products? Certainly. Anything that provides visibility could be considered beneficial. But that's very different from making the accusation that the video was made for the purpose of promoting his products. Cause and effect does not prove motive in any way.

I certainly don't expect you to believe me or take my word for it (and that's fine), but based on the understanding of Tom's character that I have built up over the years reading his posts and articles and how he interacts with individuals here, it is my own personal judgment that his passion for helping others understand the equipment in general and its importance and the process of fitting is greater than any desire to promote his own products over others. He actually goes out of his way to not talk about or bring up his specific products when answering general questions helping folks out and brings up his products only when directly asked about them.

However, exactly why he shared the results is hardly relevant to the validity of the technical information provided or it's accuracy - and that was the real nature of the original topic.
[/quote]

If you can't see that the entire online presence is marketing for the company and products, then there isn't much more to say about it.

The non-adjustable product set is clearly differentiated from the major OEM products. I bet there are enough people who, for whatever reason, don't like adjustable clubs, to support a small submarket. I'm not sure for how long though.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1420649458' post='10701693']
If you can't see that the entire online presence is marketing for the company and products, then there isn't much more to say about it.
[/quote]

Yes, sorry but I need actual evidence to be able to see something. So without any, there is nothing else to say.

Even it it was, it's irrelevant with respect to the explanation of how the adjustment mechanisms work and what they really do so pretty much a pointless argument anyways.

And Tom does offer a driver with an adjustment mechanism (and even mentions it in the video) and actively markets the rest as fully adjustable through hossel bending (which Tom explains works effectively in the same manner as the OEM mechanisms).

[knockdstiff]

Yes, Wishon marketing dollars are keeping the thread pinned.

Also, Tom has also employed a team of interns working 'round the clock to build up fake GolfWRX profiles over the past few months in order to ensure it would generate hundreds of interested replies from apparently 'real' forum members.

Nice try Tom, but we've found you out!


OK wait I have an actual question. How does what happens at address get translated through impact? Example - playing a Titleist something at say C-1...flat/open/delofted.
Assume I somehow magically match the lie angle of this setting and don't correct the way the club 'sits' - I just let it sit how it 'wants' to.

At impact, I'm square (ha!). Nearly straight ball. So I've clearly 'undone' the open face angle at address during release - but that is what I wanted from the club...to give me a little more room to let things turn over or whatever.

What have I done to the loft at impact? Say it is a 9.5 driver and I've allegedly adjusted it to 8.75.

I'm sorry if this is in the video - I did watch the whole thing.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1420688438' post='10706307']
What have I done to the loft at impact? Say it is a 9.5 driver and I've allegedly adjusted it to 8.75.
[/quote]

yes, face angle is all about adjusting for differences in the face orientation that happens during the swing between set-up and the impact position. But the actual loft at impact is the dynamic loft and takes into considerations other dynamic changes between set-up and impact such as amount of shaft lean.

If you were to square the face and IF there is zero shaft lean at impact, you will get a dynamic loft that is the same as the effective loft of 8.75 (that's how effective loft is defined, square face and shaft). Remember that 9.5 is the loft in the naturally soled, open position (after adjustment) and squaring down an open face will reduce the loft.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420511357' post='10692559']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1420304408' post='10679291']
[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1420264766' post='10678033'][quote name='erick.andress' timestamp='1419894568' post='10657215']
Such a great thread! Anyone who has bought into adujustable drivers blindly over the last couple years should watch this post. Tom Wishon is one of the best clubfitters in the world and has arguably the best club design in the market. A little education goes a long way for the ametuer golfer!
[/quote]

This video is just sales material to accompany his own products. Basically no more "educational" than videos put out by other OEM's. This thread should be unpinned, but I'm guessing Wishon Golf sponsorship dollars are keeping it here.[/quote]so explaining to everyone how adjustable drivers work when soled or when hovering is not beneficial? Take your crybaby nonsense elsewhere. Tom has given so much time over the years answering questions on this forum for nothing. Be grateful we have access to people with that much knowledge.
[/quote]

I'm simply pointing out that this guy isn't the say all end all of golf knowledge. He has more experience than most, but it's disturbing to see people fawning over him like is often done on this site. My post is basically there to remind people Tom has his own ponies in the race and this video was produced to accompany those products. This isn't an unbiased, "for the good of all golfers" educational video. His information can be useful but it shouldn't be touted as gospel as seem people seem to think.
[/quote]

Can't say ANYONE is the say all / be all, but when he's right.... he's right. This time, he hit the nail on the head.

Now, how anyone can NOT understand what is happening with the club is beyond me. They should just give up entering into these discussions and play all glued clubs. Getting into these conversations will just cause frustration.

BT

[mesegrn]

Nice video!!

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1420688438' post='10706307']
Yes, Wishon marketing dollars are keeping the thread pinned.

Also, Tom has also employed a team of interns working 'round the clock to build up fake GolfWRX profiles over the past few months in order to ensure it would generate hundreds of interested replies from apparently 'real' forum members.

Nice try Tom, but we've found you out!


OK wait I have an actual question. How does what happens at address get translated through impact? Example - playing a Titleist something at say C-1...flat/open/delofted.
Assume I somehow magically match the lie angle of this setting and don't correct the way the club 'sits' - I just let it sit how it 'wants' to.

At impact, I'm square (ha!). Nearly straight ball. So I've clearly 'undone' the open face angle at address during release - but that is what I wanted from the club...to give me a little more room to let things turn over or whatever.

What have I done to the loft at impact? Say it is a 9.5 driver and I've allegedly adjusted it to 8.75.

I'm sorry if this is in the video - I did watch the whole thing.
[/quote]

You've applied a 1.75* LOWER loft on the ball than you would have with the club set at the previous setting. Everything else being equal between the two swings, of course. Yes, it's in the video and happens to be the main subject, so I don't know how you would miss that!

Incidentally, I have been here for quite a long time and will attest to the fact that Tom very often has beneficial information on equipment (and other) topics here. He and I have had our disagreements, but all in all I agree with most that he has to say. I am also an "old school" clubmaker (no longer in the business) and relate to all of that type of information that he mentions in his posts. He often references his work and accomplishments in his posts to validate his credibility, which I expect, is appreciated by those who read his posts. Gives them an idea of who they are listening to. The OEMs have changed their marketing information over the last several years and we've all struggled to understand what they are doing with the clubs they are making these days. Some of it appears to be BS and some of it actually is. The point of the matter though, is that the adjustable hosel adapters do exactly what he is describing in the video (which is NOT EXACTLY the conclusion he reached in the report he posted several months before, but then, we are ALL learning here). How and if it applies to your game is for you to find out.

BT

[knockdstiff]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1420747949' post='10710489']
You've applied a 1.75* LOWER loft on the ball than you would have with the club set at the previous setting. Everything else being equal between the two swings, of course. Yes, it's in the video and happens to be the main subject, so I don't know how you would miss that!

[/quote]

OK like most people I can't pay full attention to something for 18 minutes. I fully understood what he was saying about how adjustables work and that you have to 'correct' the lie in order to get the stated loft change, but I missed the part where he explains what ends up happening at impact if you 'undo' any face angle adjustments.

And now I'm confused again....where does 1.75 come from? If neutral was 9.5 and the alleged adjustment is to 8.75.....or is that a typo and it's .75?

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1420769538' post='10712553']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1420747949' post='10710489']
You've applied a 1.75* LOWER loft on the ball than you would have with the club set at the previous setting. Everything else being equal between the two swings, of course. Yes, it's in the video and happens to be the main subject, so I don't know how you would miss that!

[/quote]

OK like most people I can't pay full attention to something for 18 minutes. I fully understood what he was saying about how adjustables work and that you have to 'correct' the lie in order to get the stated loft change, but I missed the part where he explains what ends up happening at impact if you 'undo' any face angle adjustments.

And now I'm confused again....where does 1.75 come from? If neutral was 9.5 and the alleged adjustment is to 8.75.....or is that a typo and it's .75?
[/quote]

Yes, it's a typo. Sorry. BTW, .75 isn't going to do much for the trajectory and modt players wouldn't even notice it.

Another thought on how to use the adjustable nature of these clubs is this. I carry a 13*, 16* and 19* FWs along with my driver which is typically set at 8.5*. The rest of my setup is 4-pw (46), gw (52) & sw (58). As you can see, I have 6* gaps in my 3 wedge setup. If I decide to get another 4 wedge set with 4* gaps, then I can adjust my FWs to 14* & 18* and drop one of them to keep my club ct to 14. No real tough decisions on how to add the extra wedge.

BT

[JL529]

Tom Wishon should be voted in some sort of Golf clubmakers hall of fame...no, seriously...

[JCAG]

[color=#293539][left]Louisville, KY - The Professional CLUBMAKERS' Society, an international, independent association of golf clubmakers headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky whose mission is to foster, promote, and elevate the art of professional golf club making, fitting and repair, has announced the 2007 inductees to its Hall of Fame.[/left][/color]
[color=#293539][left]The PCS Hall of Fame Committee unanimously elected Tom Wishon of Tom Wishon Golf Technologies, and Bob Bush, who is largely credited with developing the 'Iron Byron' golf swing mechanism, for induction. Bob Uebelhor, Indianapolis, IN, who chairs the PCS Hall of Fame Committee, made the announcement at the PCS Annual Meeting held recently in Louisville, KY.[/left][/color]
[color=#293539][left]"The PCS is pleased to add both Tom and Bob to our Hall of Fame. They join an illustrious group of golf clubmakers and are in elite company that includes the likes of Tony Penna, 'Old' Tom Morris, Stan Thompson, Kenneth Smith, and Elmore Just, who founded the PCS in 1989, to name a few. "The PCS is proud to have these golf clubmakers join our Hall of Fame," said Uebelhor.[/left][/color]
[color=#293539][left]"This is truly an award I will cherish for many years to come, and I am honored to belong to a fraternity of such distinguished golf clubmakers," said Tom Wishon. Wishon is widely recognized in the golf industry as the pre-eminent custom golf clubmaker, and he is the author of several books on custom golf club fitting including 'The Search For The Perfect Golf Club' and "12 Myths that Could Wreck Your Golf Game.'[/left][/color]

[Shanksamillion]

This has probably already been noted, but I really don't want read through all the pages here. sorry if it has.

I think one of the reasons why the big companies have gone this way is because of the newer launch monitor technology that is readily available today. They get pretty accurate info based on your swing and actually striking the ball and then you make fine tuning adjustments from there. What else matters? Who cares how it sits on the ground...most of us use a tee. It doesn't matter what specs your driver claims as long as you get the desired launch angle, spin rate and landing near your target line (with little side spin). Then take your driver out for on course testing.... Just because your numbers look good doesn't mean it will work or that you will like it.

Obviously, without the benefit of the launch monitor you just have to do on course testing. See what your ball does and note the distance and flight. Most of the average golfers don't have a consistent enough swing to really take advantage of fine tuning anyway. For the most part, they only need a slice control.

I think most of the more informed guys on here already knew that the adjustable hosel driver was pretty limited in what it could do anyway. And i think thats why most companies still offer different loft options in driver heads. I never liked the fact that most, like TaylorMade, couldn't adjust face angle and loft independently. Still, i do appreciate this video. Not trying to minimize it at all.

[gunmetal]

As a fervent Wishon-ite fan, supporter, and admirer I must admit that rybos arguments and evidence is extremely compelling. When Tom's report came out I remember thinking there's no way Tom is wrong and there's no way TM, Nike, titleist and Ping are wrong too. Turns out I was probably justified. If loft means one thing to Tom and another to the manufacturers designing the clubs, there's bound to be discrepancy (doesn't matter if loft has been one thing for all of time). Furthermore, I find it too coincidental that the drivers score lines all just happened to be parallel to the base of the machine when seated in its proper lie position. It would have been ideal to have representatives from each manufacturer's r&d next to Tom to assist with the intended method of insertion...though come to think of it they may have questioned the relevance of measuring their drivers in the green machine.

[size=4]The bottom line is adjustable drivers are both confusing to the average golfer and incredibly useful and remarkable innovations that do what the manufacturers say when in the hands of someone who both has a proper fitting device (launch monitor) and knowledge of how the adjustments work.[/size]

[NuckandCup]

EXCELLENT dissertation, Tom!

Thank you...well done!

[bullrambler]

Great information on your video Tom. It would be nice to have a driver with a flatter lie and a couple of degrees open so the bendable hosel is a great creation that your company designed. It's late now but I'll pull up your site again tomorrow and read the material again as it has definitely tweaked my interest.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

I'm not big on Tom's conspiracy theory attitude towards OEMs but I think that I agree with him to a certain extent. I personally think that Titleist has the best grasp on the adjustable driver/woods/hybrids idea. I like that they offer a lot of lofts and allow me to fine tune from there. I would be more willing to totally agree with him were he to attack the OEM's that offer the "one driver fits all" club as opposed to going after every company who's name doesn't start with Tom Wishon.

I think the video is good if you take it for what it's worth and realize that when you're buying a driver it is going to play closer to the actual loft of the face rather than just turning a shaft and having it magically adjust from 8.5 to 12 degrees. If you go out and get fit with the actual driver you're going to be hitting you will have a lot better chance for success.