How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[Strike Force]

How 'bout adjustable fairway woods, which are almost always soled on the ground at address when played off the fairway.

A[color=#282828][size=4]djustable fairway woods (like the PING G30 fairway woods for example) present a unique problem that is not as easy to overcome (compared to the driver) because the clubhead of fairway woods are almost always soled on the turf at address... This means that increasing the loft closes the face angle when the club is soled at address - so the golfer will likely square the clubface which in-turn lowers the rear of the club's sole and that causes the leading edge of the clubface to raise up...in essence creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of the club, which can cause mishits...especially on tight lies. And of course the opposite will be the case when decreasing loft of a fairway wood. It is odd to me that this topic is rarely, if ever, mentioned or discussed. Obviously it would be highly desirable, in my opinion, to keep fairway woods in the neutral position, which will provide a square clubface when the club is soled at address. [/size][/color]

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Thwack!' timestamp='1413135421' post='10274701']
How 'bout adjustable fairway woods, which are almost always soled on the ground at address when played off the fairway.

A[color=#282828][size=4]djustable fairway woods (like the PING G30 fairway woods for example) present a unique problem that is not as easy to overcome (compared to the driver) because the clubhead of fairway woods are almost always soled on the turf at address... This means that increasing the loft closes the face angle when the club is soled at address - so the golfer will likely square the clubface which in-turn lowers the rear of the club's sole and that causes the leading edge of the clubface to raise up...in essence creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of the club, which can cause mishits...especially on tight lies. And of course the opposite will be the case when decreasing loft of a fairway wood. It is odd to me that this topic is rarely, if ever, mentioned or discussed. Obviously it would be highly desirable, in my opinion, to keep fairway woods in the neutral position, which will provide a square clubface when the club is soled at address. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

Your concern is the exact reason I play the clubs I play setup the way they are (as mentioned a couple of posts back). I still take my grip on my FWs before addressing the ball so that I know it is square, open or closed depending on desired shot shape REGARDLESS of how it might sit on the turf. Just like I do with my irons.

However, for those who sole the club when taking their grip, the FA can play a large role in the flight of the ball.

BT

[ronsc1985]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1413307051' post='10284993']
[quote name='Thwack!' timestamp='1413135421' post='10274701']
How 'bout adjustable fairway woods, which are almost always soled on the ground at address when played off the fairway.

A[color=#282828][size=4]djustable fairway woods (like the PING G30 fairway woods for example) present a unique problem that is not as easy to overcome (compared to the driver) because the clubhead of fairway woods are almost always soled on the turf at address... This means that increasing the loft closes the face angle when the club is soled at address - so the golfer will likely square the clubface which in-turn lowers the rear of the club's sole and that causes the leading edge of the clubface to raise up...in essence creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of the club, which can cause mishits...especially on tight lies. And of course the opposite will be the case when decreasing loft of a fairway wood. It is odd to me that this topic is rarely, if ever, mentioned or discussed. Obviously it would be highly desirable, in my opinion, to keep fairway woods in the neutral position, which will provide a square clubface when the club is soled at address. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

Your concern is the exact reason I play the clubs I play setup the way they are (as mentioned a couple of posts back). I still take my grip on my FWs before addressing the ball so that I know it is square, open or closed depending on desired shot shape REGARDLESS of how it might sit on the turf. Just like I do with my irons.

However, for those who sole the club when taking their grip, the FA can play a large role in the flight of the ball.

BT
[/quote]Me too.

Unless you play on a course which has exactly flat lies all the time, using soling of the club to set the face direction is not very useful.

In fact even on tees the lie is not flat and level. Tees are constructed with a 1 degree/1%grade ( don't remember which) back to front angle and left to right up construction spec. Since they have to drain somehow the course architects set it this way since the vast majority of golfers are right handed and have trouble slicing and getting the ball airborne. As a matter of fact I do not know one good player who uses the sole of any club to set the initial face angle. I'm sure there are some but I don't know any.

[Strike Force]

You both are not addressing the issue of creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of an adjustable loft fairway wood clubhead (which happens when you increase the club's loft and then re-square the face angle). This would [especially] be a problem when playing from tight fairways/lies.

[size=4]Do you want bounce on the rear sole of your fairway woods where the rear sole of the club bounces into the turf/ground before the clubface impacts the golf ball (if you increased loft on an adjustable loft fairway wood)? That would be a problem for most golfers unless you added an additional amount of shaft lean, or you naturally have a steep AoA, which is not usually good when swinging longer clubs. Most accomplished golfers sweep their fairway woods with only a slight descending swing...and adding/creating bounce on the rear sole would cause them problems. [/size]

[backbonz]

This thread is making me wonder now if this is the reason I've been missing right more often lately. I've been soling my driver first before making my grip. With my old bonded driver I used to make my grip using the grip logo for reference before lining everything up. I will have to do some testing at the range.

[ronsc1985]

[quote name='Thwack!' timestamp='1413319467' post='10286327']
You both are not addressing the issue of creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of the club (which happens when you increase the club's loft and square the face angle). This would [especially] be a problem when playing from tight fairways/lies. [size=4]Do you want bounce on the rear sole of your fairway wood where the rear sole of the club would bounce (contact) into the turf/ground before impact? That would be a problem for most golfers unless you have steep AoA hitting down with a lot of shaft lean. Most accomplished golfers sweep fairway woods with only a slight descending swing. [/size]
[/quote]That is a non issue. Take a look at most modern fairway woods, especially those with adjustable faces. The trailing edge is already raised up some so the minor amount you increase or decrease the bounce is irrevalent.

BTW most all tour player take a small divot with fairway woods as they actually hit down more then just a little. I tend to sweep the ball, and have tried every setting on TM fairway woods, from R9's to RBX S2's, without the problem you say occurs.

I think you are remebering clubs when the sole plate was flat back to front and only bent heel to toe. This pretty much went away with the introduction of metal woods.

The OEM's are not stupid as some on this forum would imply. They do not, as a matter of staying in business, try selling clubs which are hard to hit.

[Strike Force]

When I increase the loft on G30 fairways woods (3W and 5W) and square the face angle I feel the rear sole (trailing edge) contact the ground/turf and I see a slightly raised leading edge when the club's shaft angle is kept the same as when the club is in the neutral position.

[T.Beau]

I thought the video was great...explained how adjustable drivers really work in very understandable terms.......reading this thread a bit further has caused my eyes to glaze over....but then again, i'm still swinging a glued driver.
I've tried adjustable drivers..problem I have is that there is only one setting that makes the club 'sit' properly to my eye, and it would be sheer luck if that setting produced the best results for my swing.
I think adjustability benefits the manufacturer and fitter far more than the consumer. The fitter more because they can swap in shafts so easily and gives them a chance to sell that high end (expensive) esoteric shaft rather than the so called crappy stock shaft the manufacturer puts in there....thats a whole other story.
Adjustability also immensely benefits the manufacturer...instead of having to make and inventory 4 skus or so w. diff lofts, they only have 1..thats huge for them....
I think the adjustability as it is, perhaps confuses the basic consumer more than helps them..it is a means to put band aids on bad swings rather than to work to improve the swing. It also gets more gear thoughts into the head, when the goal should be to have less thoughts about the gear.
Think Bridgestone is thinking along the lines of Tom, in that their adjustable hosel only claims to adjust face angle and lie, and they will offer different lofts in their upcoming model. They also have a weight system to change spin and moi. This is one driver I know I will want to try...in spite of lots of technology, it is easy to understand

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Thwack!' timestamp='1413319467' post='10286327']
You both are not addressing the issue of creating unwanted bounce on the rear sole of an adjustable loft fairway wood clubhead (which happens when you increase the club's loft and then re-square the face angle). This would [especially] be a problem when playing from tight fairways/lies.

[size=4]Do you want bounce on the rear sole of your fairway woods where the rear sole of the club bounces into the turf/ground before the clubface impacts the golf ball (if you increased loft on an adjustable loft fairway wood)? That would be a problem for most golfers unless you added an additional amount of shaft lean, or you naturally have a steep AoA, which is not usually good when swinging longer clubs. Most accomplished golfers sweep their fairway woods with only a slight descending swing...and adding/creating bounce on the rear sole would cause them problems. [/size]
[/quote]

Sorry. I thought perhaps you had read my earlier post which described the FWs I use that can be setup to avoid the issue you are describing. FW Sole bounce is an issue I have dealt with for years, but usually only when playing a fade. When all FWs were glued, if you didn't find one that was open faced, you had this problem. I found that getting pro line FW woods took care of it because most of them had open FA.

I also believe this is why many find the 3w off the deck a difficult shot to play. Especially when the lies are tight.

To reiterate, I firmly believe the TM R11 FWs did the best job of this because of the ASP plate on the rear sole. When the ASP is cranked to it's lowest setting, even the highest loft setting is still a bit open (no bounce created). Incidentally,I rarely play my FWs above standard because it would cause too large of a gap between them and my driver. My driver (Amp Cell Pro), however, I have played from the lowest to the highest setting with no problem at all. I have recently acquired an Amp Cell 3/4 FW which I intend to compare to the R11 in this aspect over the next couple of months.

BT

[coloradogolf72]

This is good, but now I will always be bothered when I look at mine and know it's lying to me.

[Farrow]

[quote name='coloradogolf72' timestamp='1413418152' post='10295829']
This is good, but now I will always be bothered when I look at mine and know it's lying to me.
[/quote]

A club can't lie to you. Do you hit the shots you want with it? Then that's all the "truth" you need.

[SuperPapaBear]

This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413701237' post='10313279']
This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.
[/quote]

I don't know if they are a sham or not, but what occurs to me is that once you get the adjustment the way you want it, you need not touch it again. That being the case, why not get fitted in the first place with a glued hosel and be done with it? The same with moveable weights to a lesser degree as there may be instances where creating an intentional fade or draw bias might be desirable depending on what your favored shot is for the day (not during a round). To wit, R-7

[Cwebb]

[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413701237' post='10313279']
This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.
[/quote]

Not a sham at all, just confusing in terms of how to understand what everything means and does...and 'technically' how they measure

[JCAG]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1413747996' post='10315369']
[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413701237' post='10313279']
This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.
[/quote]

Not a sham at all, just confusing in terms of how to understand what everything means and does...and 'technically' how they measure
[/quote]

Well said.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1413740212' post='10314857']
[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413701237' post='10313279']
This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.
[/quote]

I don't know if they are a sham or not, but what occurs to me is that once you get the adjustment the way you want it, you need not touch it again. That being the case, why not get fitted in the first place with a glued hosel and be done with it? The same with moveable weights to a lesser degree as there may be instances where creating an intentional fade or draw bias might be desirable depending on what your favored shot is for the day (not during a round). To wit, R-7
[/quote]

To me, whenever you put a connection point into a metal/graphite shaft, you weaken it a little bit. In the case of adjustable drivers, i'm sure it is quite negligible. Nonetheless, it's still there, and a possibility for weakness. I agree with you, if you know what you want, just buy a non-adjustable driver. I believe mamyt amateurs aren't really competent in adjusting them, but do more harm then good. Nice thing about adjustable drivers is the ability to take off the head for shaft change outs, or for traveling. JMO.

[backbonz]

Not sure if this was covered earlier in this thread, and this might be a dumb question, but if you had 2 heads(same make) for eg one 12* and one 14* and set both to be 13*. If you hovered the both clubs at address, would I be correct in assuming that both club heads would produce the same ball flight?

[rybo]

[quote name='backbonz' timestamp='1413956027' post='10330959']
Not sure if this was covered earlier in this thread, and this might be a dumb question, but if you had 2 heads(same make) for eg one 12* and one 14* and set both to be 13*. If you hovered the both clubs at address, would I be correct in assuming that both club heads would produce the same ball flight?
[/quote]

From what I have seen the answer is yes and no.

Launch angle will be similar, ball flight will be different. The lie angles will be different enough that even an individual who hovers the club will still see differences in ball flights between the two. The two heads would also have different CoG locations when adjusted to their respective identical loft settings. One will naturally fit the golfer better then the other. Hovering a club does not negate the angles created between the shaft and the head. Hovering simply removes the interaction of the sole with the ground.

[SuperPapaBear]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1413768371' post='10317097']
I believe mamyt amateurs aren't really competent in adjusting them, but do more harm then good. Nice thing about adjustable drivers is the ability to take off the head for shaft change outs, or for traveling. JMO.
[/quote]

These are the two biggest benefits I can see. I will admit to being a novice when it comes to golf equipment and an even bigger novice when it comes to a golf swing, but I do believe that if you're moving parts around in a club you better not be moving parts around in your swing.

Does anyone know how often pros are changing up the settings on their adjustable clubs?

[Anser3]

I respect Tom Wishon immensely and believe everything he says about club building, manufacturing, etc. I have an adjustable driver for one reason-the ability to swap out shafts in a matter of seconds.

[rybo]

[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413996680' post='10333145']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1413768371' post='10317097']
I believe mamyt amateurs aren't really competent in adjusting them, but do more harm then good. Nice thing about adjustable drivers is the ability to take off the head for shaft change outs, or for traveling. JMO.
[/quote]
[b]Does anyone know how often pros are changing up the settings on their adjustable clubs?[/b]
[/quote]

Adjustable clubs are not about how often one changes the settings; they are about allowing all golfers to fine tune angles that best match up to their swing. Once the best setting is found, it likely will not be changed again. Adjustable clubs simply allow a much quicker, better and more efficient way to fit the club to the golfer. 7 to 16 non-adjustable heads would be needed to duplicate what can be done with a single adjustable club.

And remember the pros are still going to have every head they touch measured 50 ways from Sunday. They are not going to leave anything to chance.

[Ri_Redneck]

Up until the adjustable woods came along, I had drivers (7.5* - 10.5*) and FWs (12* - 19.5*) with different lofts and on any given day I would pick the ones that would suit the conditions best. I also have multiple wedges (50,52,54,56 & 58 with varying bounce) which I would also choose from. Do most other people do this? I doubt it. But I found it better than trying to adjust my swing to suit the day. I would suspect that the pros, who have unlimited access to equipment, would do something similar when playing in differing conditions.

Adjustable woods have made this considerably easier. Perhaps I am the only person who doesn't use the adjustments only for fitting.

BT

[happc7]

very interesting. thnks

[ronsc1985]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1414160369' post='10343823']
Up until the adjustable woods came along, I had drivers (7.5* - 10.5*) and FWs (12* - 19.5*) with different lofts and on any given day I would pick the ones that would suit the conditions best. I also have multiple wedges (50,52,54,56 & 58 with varying bounce) which I would also choose from. Do most other people do this? I doubt it. But I found it better than trying to adjust my swing to suit the day. I would suspect that the pros, who have unlimited access to equipment, would do something similar when playing in differing conditions.

Adjustable woods have made this considerably easier. Perhaps I am the only person who doesn't use the adjustments only for fitting.

BT
[/quote]Me to. I change the loft for either windy conditions (lower) or soft conditions (higher). I do this on both the driver and 3 wood. It takes about 30 seconds to do both so why not? The amount of lie angle change you get is a nit with low lofted clubs such as the driver and fairway woods. In my case the clubs are TM RBZ S2's but the same is applicable to most any adjustable club.

[Georgie Z]

great info as usual tom

[MBBG]

It's also important to remember that adjustable drivers are a huge inventory management tool for manufacturers and retailers.

An OEM can produce one driver that covers every loft from 8-12, or produce 4 drivers, one at each specific loft. A retailer can stock 100 of the 8-12* adjustable drivers, or stock, say, 15 8.5*, 30 9.5*, 40 10.5*, and 15 11.5* and hope they all sell and that you got the right numbers of each.

Sure, for better golfers and pros, the ability to tweak down to the last detail is a huge benefit. For the vast majority of people buying adjustable drivers, it's most likely just a selling point moreso than a performance benefit. I don't know anybody who messes with their setting much outside of WRX types.

Ironically I have always seemed to find myself going back to the neutral setting on every adjustable driver I've ever had. They just never seemed quite "right" to me in various degrees of adjustment away from neutral. Having read the article, I kind of understand why now, even though I don't sole the club to set the face angle.

[cxx]

[quote name='MBBG' timestamp='1415071422' post='10394051']

An OEM can produce one driver that covers every loft from 8-12, or produce 4 drivers, one at each specific loft. A retailer can stock 100 of the 8-12* adjustable drivers, or stock, say, 15 8.5*, 30 9.5*, 40 10.5*, and 15 11.5* and hope they all sell and that you got the right numbers of each.



[/quote]

Most OEMs produce heads in the standard lofts with the ability to adjust between lofts. The only one that I know of that has one head with large scale loft adjustment is Nike.

[Farrow]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1413768371' post='10317097']
[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1413740212' post='10314857']
[quote name='SuperPapaBear' timestamp='1413701237' post='10313279']
This video made me think that adjustable clubs are a sham.
[/quote]

I don't know if they are a sham or not, but what occurs to me is that once you get the adjustment the way you want it, you need not touch it again. That being the case, why not get fitted in the first place with a glued hosel and be done with it? The same with moveable weights to a lesser degree as there may be instances where creating an intentional fade or draw bias might be desirable depending on what your favored shot is for the day (not during a round). To wit, R-7
[/quote]

To me, whenever you put a connection point into a metal/graphite shaft, you weaken it a little bit. In the case of adjustable drivers, i'm sure it is quite negligible. Nonetheless, it's still there, and a possibility for weakness. I agree with you, if you know what you want, just buy a non-adjustable driver. I believe mamyt amateurs aren't really competent in adjusting them, but do more harm then good. Nice thing about adjustable drivers is the ability to take off the head for shaft change outs, or for traveling. JMO.
[/quote]

A fixed hosel club is no stronger than an adjustable hosel club. They both use epoxy to glue the composite shaft into the club head. When the adjustable hosel adapter is properly torqued down there is absolutely no performance difference. I mean, do you worry the wheels are going to fly off your car or can't handle your driving? They're connected to your car by the same mechanical mechanism as the adjustable hosel is connected to the club head.

[jgagai]

[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1410973470' post='10133105']
[media=]http://youtu.be/aj5KOk2oXU0[/media]
[/quote]thanks for info. love your 575mmc cavity irons. but who would NOT open , close or square the face of a driver before they swing. Most of the courses I play have unlevel tee boxes so it is vital to pay attention to how the sole moves the face at address.

[tdk8180]

Im an easy fit. I need something between 7.0 and 9.0 degrees (face loft). I need something square to 1 degree open (face angle), i need something std to 1 flat (lie angle)

Now Tom says these three elements can be independent, but who cares if i can get my club to look square to open by setting my club "open" per the hosel. That will open the face angle, it will deloft the club, and it will flatten the lie. One setting, 3 results. I dont sole my club, i float it off the takeaway. Blows your mind right.